Stats Revamp 1.7

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Avair, Jun 9, 2017.

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  1. Jacob Dragonhunter Devoted Player

    Keep it on topic please. You'll get water when it's out.

    If you rush this revamp, you'll ultimately be setting this game up to fail.
    • Like x 2
  2. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    We have already made many and significant changes to power costs and scaling over the revamp process. We are already "somewhere in the middle" in terms of compromise, and we are continuing to gauge feedback. The more details you can use express to your preferences with, the better we will be able to reconcile that feedback. Appreciate the continued constructive comments.
    • Like x 4
  3. Jacob Dragonhunter Devoted Player

    Somewhere in the middle? I'm sorry but that's not the way I see it.

    Let me put this in comparison for you guys:

    As stated before when it comes down to Power-regeneration and Costs, Combo powersets and Channeling Powers Generally pace better with how the regeneration rebuilds.

    Burst powers generally consume more power over the course of usage and also don't regenerate quite as nicely as Combo/Channeling attacks.

    On top of this, there's also quite the discrepancy between how power costs are ordered from One DPS to the next; For Example Something along the lines of Nature, Sorcery, and Earth; they have plenty of low cost spammers compared to let's say Quantum. Quantum doesn't quite have as many low cost options leaving it cut and dry in some scenarios.

    Support Roles:

    This is another big point as to why I Disagree with the Compromise as you mentioned it.

    Healer(I'll use electricity to demonstrate)
    Power costs:


    Bio-electric Surge.

    Arc Lighting.
    Ionic Drain.
    Not only are the Power Cost Abilities all over the place, but these are also very demanding on power consumption; and there's next to none in the low cost department.

    So while you have made compromises for DPS, Support roles have gotten the bad end of the bargin. DPS on the revamp you have a nice amount of freedom in choosing on what you want to do, but as far as Support Roles go: not only do you have next to no low power cost heals; you can't even play remotely outside of hybrid mode which makes the Support Roles quite the cookie cutter mess.

    It's honestly hard in my eyes to see a controller possibly digest this much power consumption, let alone restoring it to keep me going. At this rate controllers will be batteries because of this.

    You guys given DPS alot of love and attention, Support roles need some too.

    In my opinion: A survey exclusively for support roles should be open sometime soon, so we can at least make some headway over in that department.
    • Like x 2
  4. Cds2005 New Player

    They were trying to make changes to trolling at the start, to make it more crowd control but that got bad feedback. And as for the trolling and it being to hard to get enough power out, thats the challenge of being a troll. Before everyone had advance mechanics there was some skill to trolling. There were tricks that you did to get as much power out as possible. Things like a group timing their supply drops for when its best for trolls and healers. Not just dropping them to dps better. With the way things are on live there is almost no difference between a subpar troll and a good one. I like the idea of it being harder to keep everyone powered. It will make GOOD trolls more valuable
  5. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    But when some powers can only run a comparable rotation for 30 seconds and when healers are struggling with power theres clearly a issue. It shouldn't be about compromise it should be about getting everything to function correctly and not everything is going to follow the same guidelines cause everything doesn't work the same.
    • Like x 11
  6. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    If they haven't already, perhaps over the course of 1.8, they can reduce costs across the board slightly, in example, 300s go down to 250, 200s down to 165, etc. Then ask for feedback in how we think it feels. That's probably the best and most diplomatic way to approach it. Cause unless the devs run raids with us, they won't get an idea of what is were asking for.
    • Like x 4
  7. pitbullb3 Devoted Player

    If support powers stay as is, the results will be close to u47. Listen to feedback and really compromise. Power has been an issue since revamp. People are still complaining. You can't start off making power really bad, improve the really bad power somewhat, and call that a compromise. With all do respect
    • Like x 1
  8. Mighty Committed Player

    That's not a bad idea. I'd also be a huge proponent of devs and testers teaming up for some raids. I freely volunteer to troll/dps any raid. Also I think just the camaraderie built from just running together could break down some walls and aid communication.
    • Like x 7
  9. Cyro Committed Player

    While i do agree with this(i have even run jfa with 6 people and beat it albeit with difficulty) the thing you have to remember is EVERYONE is playing with over 200 sp, fulled modded, full gen mods, and 201 cr. Due to low population on test(give us rewards to incentivize testing) no one is testing this with live standards. We are all testing this like its old content, no one is running this at low crs with half Olympian mods. So while no one is having trouble passing, the grain of salt you have to take is we are all fully geared.

    At cr 196 it may be a different issue, this is where power issues will be truly seen. When we are in this awkward period between being geared with the new and old. Due to the high mark cost of the mod removal and the fact that they arent account bound people will likely be putting t8 mods or syn mods in their gear that isnt vendor or purple which will cause power issues.The power issues we are already seeing will be more pronounced causing huge issues and will make lvling feel awkward.

    Also i would like to point out for my troll i go with hybrid mastery and if we have two trolls my power bar is always full when im by myself its usually around half if im not mistaken. Do not take this information and think job well done - My bar is full but my teammates bars are empty, i can not put out power fast enough which makes having a full bar even worse...its like its taunting me. As a troll all i can do is dump power. The troll role is SO BAD on test that no one wants to troll, its almost impossible to find trolls and this is on test where it takes about 5mins to make one - everyone refuses to play it. When forming a group we basically have to assign someone the black spot and force them to troll. Controlling on test is not fun, its not hard, its not rewarding because i have the knowledge that no matter what i do people will be hurting for power. Trolling on test is worse than live. You manged to take a role that almost no one liked to do and made it worse....didnt think you could mange that.
    • Like x 7
  10. Srone Well-Known Player

    Not sure if they run with many people on live as well but if they can get into some groups on live and run with some of the players running harder content or just overall seeing how they are using the powers opposed to how they envisioned it, the barriers can be broken and they can kind of come up with a better strategy when it comes to revamping or fixing powers. Then while on test if they do the same thing, things can be smoothed out a lot faster and get to where they want. thatll ultimately bring in more money for the game honestly. because players like myself would enjoy it to its full potential like its golden days. even with the ups and downs we all love to play and continuously try to make it better. Some of the testers to be honest are picking powers they never really used on live so make suggestions and don't necessarily know what they are talking about or what the players who are using it day in and day out are actually dealing with *cough rage cough*
    • Like x 2
  11. Srone Well-Known Player

    this game still has way to much potential to watch it go down the drain. I still log on every day. (that I can) theres gotta be some kind of actual balance between devs and players that can be found to fix these powers and not continuously give one and overall advantage. Lets face it logically if people really looked at things correctly certain powers do perform better in certain situations in which it should be utilized if applicable. But all powers should still be able to perform to ensure everyone can be the power they chose and have fun and not feel like they are pulling the team back
  12. Srone Well-Known Player

    digging for that specific sweet spot I agree wont be productive

    not all powers depending on what ur using anyway will be doing the same numbers because of animations and overall how some choose to play it which will always be out of the devs hands. but a common ground would help all these headaches
    • Like x 1
  13. FlreMint Active Player

    1-Make mods 'unlockeable' by crafting one 'Special Forces Workshop'
    Make it a different feat for equipment mods and another for generator mods
    2-Make that into a 50pt feat
    3-Make it half the requirements to 'unlock' when the feat is bought on an alt

    +Everyone is happier
    +Motivates to making a lot of different builds
    +Motivates creating alts
    +Game population and activity increases

    -Total recover kit sales die

    +Deeds & Armory sales increase

    +Power respec token sales <skyrocket>

    And also the idea quoted above.

  14. FlreMint Active Player

    What about increasing recharge cooldown to like 15 seconds but making it a REAL recharge, everyone at 50% power or more gets SUDDENTLY MAXED. Something like that.

    It'll make trolls think about when to cast that recharge, it will be rewarding, experienced trolls will be acknowledged, it will make us feel POWERFUL and, at the same time, put us away from the recharge monotony.

    I could even approve of an even longer cooldown.

    The precision buff needs to have the same duration of recharge's cooldown of course.

  15. Memphis Rainz Well-Known Player

    Even after explanations by Moja most of people keep asking for solving their own problems instead of solving main problem. Problem is power cost scaling, but people still yelling about PftT for support roles and are covered by the words "combos created for PftT, we want options for supports, we want power attached to support's stats etc". Perhaps it is time for everyone to unanimous ask about the solution of the main problem instead of continuing to mislead each other and the developers?

    Damage gap between dps and support smaller than on live. I don't know why people think support must be in close line to dps.
  16. Cyro Committed Player

    Cool concept however i think id rather the power dump bump up to 4 seconds and then given a new ability that is what you describe but reduced, going from 50% to max is too strong its basically a sc strength.

    They have stated before that they are saving trolls for later but in my mind they have two cores paths: Flesh out giving power meaning they are healers but for power

    Have them be the tanks best friend or worse nightmare and have their job be stunning stuff(this path would be harder but i believe its what people want)

    To make trolls the actual controllers of the battle field they would need to tweak quite abit of the game

    - Adds need to hit fairly hard and have enough health so that longer stuns make a difference and that their is a notable difference between stunning them and not stunning them

    - Have Dom affect debuff strength(very in favor of this)

    - Have The bosses be able to be stunned at a reduced amount. Have a hierarchic of bosses - random npc bosses would be able to stun the most out of all the bosses and for the longest amount of time(wc first boss,jfa first boss, Then you could have the smaller comic book characters like gentlemen ghost being more resistant to stuns, then the big names like batman who would be very stun resistant and break out very easily, and finally the bosses at the end of a story so nekron, darkseid, zeus these bosses would be unstunable.

    - I would like to see different breakout profiles for different controllers so when an add is immune to mentals stun a gadgets troll could come along and stun that add. This would increase the appeal of two trolls in raids

    - Making every sc unique...This above all needs to happen - biggest pet peeve about trolling. All but one troll has the EXACT same sc.

    - Make content that requires debuffs. Their isnt a lot of content that requires trolls to run with heal debuff...except this one which is filled to the rim with it almost like the devs are making up for lost time...

    - Make trolls feel more unique. Right now on live a big complaint about trolls is that they all feel the same. In my opinion trolls should be the only group that gets to keep a advanced mechanic since trolls are so, and i cant emphasize this enough, they are so dull having something like this would spice it up. For example mental trolls could get small ticks of power to the group for every add terrorized, hardlight can give a burst of power when an enemy dies(it increase the groups will or the enemies fear). Some little things that can be added to make ever troll play a little different from each other.

    Like i said before devs have stated that trolls wont be massively changed during stats so to patch trolls up so people wont be revolted by the mere thought of playing them: buff power dumps, buff pot, and let pot stack(fatal's idea) if you have two trolls or at least have the troll with the most vit give a full pot tick and the beta troll give out .5

    Trolls need love too. They have the potential to be the coolest role in the game, instead they are like an animal with rabies - so treat it, or work up the courage and put it down.
    • Like x 6
  17. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Power cost scaling is a problem, but it's not the cause of this problem. It's more of a problem that will become stronger in the next couple of DLCs.
    The support role problem has to do with several things, some on the devs' side, and some on players' side.

    1. No matter how much power trolls are able to put out, max dps rotations will find a way to burn through it. That's the new post-AM reality.

    Case in point? Hybrid mastery was specifically designed to be used by "hybrid" dps rotations. Why? Because that way they would contribute to their own power regeneration in rotations. But what do most hybrid players do on test now? They choose weapon mastery. Why? So they get more damage from the weapon portions of combos. Do they care that they're more power starved? Do they really care that they're a burden on the trolls, who are struggling to fill healers' power bar? Not if it means more dps. Now, before you misunderstand, I'm not attacking the testers, they're just pushing things to the max limits of what people would probably do on live. My point is that having trolls give out more power (to just be consumed by ever more power hungry dps) isn't really a solution, unless it's automatically slated to go to tanks and healers first.

    2. Trolls have more power than they're able to give out. But...the question is, are actual raids on test running with 1 troll or 2 trolls? Do they struggle with even 2 trolls? And again, who's struggling? DPS, or healers?

    3. Healer power costs are very high, emptying a power bar faster than the group can handle.

    4. The devs' vision of healing has changed from 'keep everyone's bar full all the time' to 'keep everyone as high as possible, know the content, know when the tank needs some extra heals for what's coming." Many healers in this game aren't really used to that.

    5. The devs' vision is for raid groups to actually learn, and respect mechanics. One example, Zeus' whatever devastation. How many dps refused to drink the cola specifically for that, or even block, or do anything to prevent damage? They just kept dpsing, and died, and then blame the healer for not shielding them properly, lol. So, this is the devs' vision, and I applaud it. Not sure how the general population will handle it, but we'll see I guess.

    TL;DR - Bottom line, I think devs need to sit down and make a decision: Namely, what will the total power available that a troll can give, period. Boom. Then, work from there. Basically say to the players, this is the total power you will have to work with. Period. Find the max damage rotation that works within this power. No max damage rotation that can do it for this power? Then we have to reduce something to make it work.

    Mighty and Crappy, if I remember, have said that pretty much every power is comparative in the 39k-44k dps range for melee roughly. But the thing that they've also mentioned is that there's a huge difference in power costs needed to get there. So the devs can in no way look at those numbers and say, they're pretty much balanced. Total power costs of rotations need to be considered.

    If Light's rotation for 30 seconds to do 40k dps costs a total of 200,000 power, and Earth's max damage rotation only costs 150,000, then it's not close to being balanced, as far as my opinion goes at least.
    • Like x 1
  18. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Oh, I think one other thing that really bugs trolls at the moment is the cooldown on the power dump. Now, if there we actually tons of things to do in the meantime, like has been mentioned above (stun adds, sure, but also debuff groups of adds or an npc with a shield, make the debuffs really important to cutting down on the incoming damage, for example) then we would stay entertained. At the moment, I don't know what everyone thinks, but I'd like to have more control over what I'm doing.

    If I want to spam power heal until my bar is drained, I should be able to. At least I wouldn't be standing around twiddling my thumbs.

    In the future, I would rather have trolls power heal like healers heal, with us controlling whether to use a power burst, DoT, etc. But for now, until that comes, just let us spam whatever we want and have something to do.

    Now here's the part where the pitchfork comes...

    How can you balance us not giving too much power out if we want to spam the power heal? I'd say reduce the amount of each individual power heal, but not quite exponentially.

    For example, right now I can give 3000 power every 6 seconds. Make the cooldown 2 seconds instead, and have me give 1,500 instead. If I'm able to squeeze three dumps in 6 seconds, yes, it will be a 33% increase. But when I have to stun, it will only be the same 3,000. Or, if 33% seems too much more, make each heal give 1,250. Then we're getting 3,750 if I choose to spam every 2 seconds, instead of 3000. And I feel much happier because I get to have some kind of control.
  19. Soder coIas Level 30

    I understand the Dev team want to make healers less spammy and become smarter in when choosing to heal and when not to heal. As on test at the moment, I find myself deciding to save certain people or letting them die sometimes. For an example, I would see the first place dps drop to 10% health, I will ensure s/he stays alive. But then the 2nd place dps drops to 10% health, but I only have 25% power left and the tanks are going to receive some huge hits and most likely if I heal that dps now, I will not have enough power to heal the incoming damage to the tanks which is honestly depressing. Yes, I understand I am the healer or one of the healers, and I choose rather you die or live but jeez, I never thought I had to pick my favs and let those people die sometimes. (Picture below) Like at first, I loved the idea of changing how healing is, like make it less spammy but I feel like someone on the Dev team was editing power cost and cooldown and by accident pressed a couple extra 0's perhaps and sent it out. When it was sent out, all the Devs noticed and thought to themselves, "Hmm, I like it. Let make it to the point where the healer either has two trolls doing nothing but spamming power, while you control your power; while the healer is not using power whatsoever and still struggles to keep anyone alive."

    I've been playing this game since beta and honestly, I've seen this game go through a lot and I can't believe that we were told that support players will become more, as in more supports will exist. But as what is on test at the moment, I truly feel that supports - controllers and healers mostly - will cease to exist. It is just too painful and overly sickeningly tedious that it isn't healthy for anyone to deal with. I am sorry, but please, for all that is holy and anything that is loved within this world, please DEVS, relook at your decisions. I honestly don't mind waiting another year if need be to actually see a good revamp come instead of a revamp that might cause every support role in the game to commit seppuku.
  20. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    I think the best course to take is add some flat Power bonus(no % based increases) to Resto, Domi and Vita (Skill Points) and slightly lower some of heal abilities' cooldowns and power costs.

    1. Only HoTs should have cooldowns matching the duration of their effects.
    2. Rapid type healing powers like Bloom and Invocation of Renewal shouldnt be with more than 6sec cooldowns and these shouldnt cost more than 300 power.
    3. Group Shields shouldnt be more than 350 power, keep the 18 sec cooldown as that has always been standard and we are used to it.
    4. 4- man heals and priority heals should be around 150 power max, unless they got some mighty fine PI that grants additional 8 man healing effect.

    Just keeping healing strength as it would be enough to promote 2 healers, no need to make them such a burden for trollers.

    Additionally, if Weapon Mastery's animation and with 10% power cost discount bonus to attach a power in the right moment is restored like on Live server, this would make WM players easily keep their Power bars full most of the time which would reassure them always getting the Troller buff. Power discount bonus would also make WM more desirable and rewarding mastery for support roles rather than Power Mastery.
    IMO, Power Mastery should be considered only by turtling tanks.

    If Devs dont want to restore WM the way it was first meant to be played, then perhaps Active Power Regen from Weapons could be slightly buffed without touching Passive Regen. I think that bringing back Power discount bonus would be better and it requires a bit more skill and timing to pull it off.
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