"VS OP" Why?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Vanguard540, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. iller

    VS are not "OP" in the Air (Moscie is the best handling, AND most responsive ESF bar none)
    VS are no longer the "OP" MAX suit. (but that WAS a contributing factor to their surge in Pop 5 years back)
    VS haven't been "OP" in ground vehicles since the PPA nerf. (Vulcan still kicks their sh** in)

    That leaves one undeniable fact in the actual Infranty Gunplay however which is:

    NO ONE WANTS TO FIGHT THEM. :eek: (their real names should be the IGNORED Sovereignty)
    NO ONE CAN ARGUE AGAINST THIS BECAUSE IT IS STATUS QUO 12-16 HOURS A DAY EVERY DAY and the Alert tracking websites all proved it with years and years of results showing VS as 1.65x more successful over either NC/TR

    Every server except Emerald apparently has this exact same issue, nearly every single night. ...and HAS had it ever since the ZOE era. Vanu has no Chill. Vanu always overpop any good fights. Vanu has the MOST players with high end machines who win Zerg fights simply by not Lagging/Hitching during them. Vanu has the most obedient little Deployside-Side delete button mashers who stay together like a hive mind. Vanu has the Best Camo for gaining 100 extra milliseconds of hesitation from anyone trying to identify them anywhere but high noon Indar. AND MOST ALL... they have the best E.S. accuracy on most of their guns at every range and some of their guns have the same DPS as the higher rpm Terran guns but with the extra accuracy too. (MSW being the only thing that competes directly with them)

    It's not Dev favoritism, It's Devs being incompetent! ...and not understanding how PLAYER COMMUNITIES naturally align themselves into Cliques or how they also follow or magnetize to specific and sometimes unexpected INCENTIVES ....and most of all...it's those same devs (nomatter which ones left and which one replaced them,) not understanding how to SCALE the carrot and stick incentives in a way that makes the TR and NC actually want to go fight the VS just as much as they're already always fighting eachother
    • Up x 2
  2. Humoreske

    Magrider(after magburner moved to passive) : OP
    What more do you need to explain?
  3. Demigan

    This once again assumes the VS organize more than the NC and TR, but only on their Magrider as they don't do it anywhere else.

    It is not because they desire awareness. The Magrider has the lowest chance of getting flanked or hit in the rear due to it's hover abilities and stability allowing it to flank others instead. And if you get hit twice in the rear something is very very wrong with your ability to process any information at all as the Magrider can turn on a dime and should never be hit more than once in the rear. It's also not as if the Vanguard or Prowler have a better chance of surviving a flank in the rear. In fact the Magrider's chances of surviving one are higher than the other two as it has the actual chance to get out of the situation, not a big chance but at least some chance.

    The Magrider isn't "just a big Harasser", it can do the job of MBT perfectly due to it's skillsets. It's why you don't see Magriders avoiding a frontal confrontation (duh). They don't magically scatter and try to hit you in the flanks, they'll strafe out in the open, fire until they get hit too much and then strafe back into cover like all tanks do. The fact that the Magrider can also function partly as a Harasser is a bonus, not a drawback.

    Your personal bias should not factor into this discussion.

    Lot of "perhaps" and "maybe's" in there. I wonder if we can check if it's true?

    Hey we can! Nope the TR and NC do not pull more HEAT and HESH because they think they are safer or anything, and the VS do not pull more AP because they feel threatened by the big bad TR/NC MBT's.

    Your theory is a fantasy that has no relation to reality.
    • Up x 3
  4. Demigan

    The Magrider's primary before CAI had a fraction less DPS than the Vanguard, there were few situations where the difference mattered, if any.
    I don't know about the exact damage profile, but this is how the VS primary guns worked around launch:
    They had lower velocity.
    the same shell drop per second, which due to it's slower speed meant more drop over the same distance.
    And wasn't there something with the AOE being significant as well?

    Additionally if you remember, 1/2 Magriders were the norm for at least the first year of the game. People would prefer to seat switch firing both guns rather than have a gunner. You are also saying that while the secondary guns were slowly nerfed to something more acceptable and the primary gun was buffed, somehow these players passed on and trained all other VS players that came afterwards into a culture of using the topgun and that this status-quo has remained for years. We've seen giant shifts in how people use their vehicles several times, but somehow this culture of "our Maggie needs a gunner" persisted?

    The entire argument of "you'd better bring a gunner" is stupid anyway. The Vanguard and Prowler benefit just as much, if not more in case of the Vanguard that has the least options to tactically beat their opponents and it has to rely on out-DPS'ing it's opponents where the other two have a much better option to out-maneuver.
    Now I can't remember the last numbers Campagne provided on the population, but the numbers before that told us that on a per-population basis (say per 100 players) the VS pulled practically the same amount of MBT's as the NC and TR. Yet they somehow got more gunners? They have the exact same motivation to pull an MBT, but do have the organization to get a gunner for it. That would mean a higher level of organization throughout the VS. Do we actually see that back with other vehicles? No we don't! There are not magical higher gunner numbers for other vehicles because that higher level of organization doesn't exist! The Magrider is simply more fun and effective to gun for.
    • Up x 1
  5. pnkdth

    Bolded, if the vanguard/prowler benefited just as much for the secondary then that means the players of those factions are ignorant or incompetent. However, the answer is much more simple since players simply made the choice which made the most sense. It was simply more beneficial to pull another MBT for NC/TR and so it happened. As the game lives on certain cookie-cutter builds get cemented as "this is the best way to do it."

    I don't see the connection between the data Campagne shared and your conclusion. However, I do agree with your conclusion. You do not need superior organisation or skill to explain it. It is just a social meme, copied over and over, and I would like to add to your conclusion that VS players also are more used to having gunners. In other words, the faction as a whole accepted it because of how the MBT was designed and has continued to make more wide use of it per 100 player because of it being effective. Not just as a platform but also in facing worse odds. So I'd say the circumstances pushed for the outcome.

    Being outnumbered is another factor which is important since VKPH gets better/worse depending on the amount of vehicles in the field. Not only because of the ratio between 1/2 and 2/2 gunners but the amount of other vehicles available. Logically if VS are have less players you also have less targets resulting in a slightly worse VKPH, or better if you're on the other side.

    I do, however, think the fun factor matters as well. Not only as an incentive but when you have fun you are more alert and lean in more into the experience. It would certainly not hurt to improve the handling and work on more interesting abilities. Raw hp increases or shield are terribly hard to balance since they often end up being broken one way or another.
  6. Liewec123

    funnily enough i was just browsing reddit (i do that now since this forum is a graveyard and ignored by the devs!)
    and someone has recently put up a poll asking people which faction they think is the most OP.
    VS are currently leading with as as many votes as TR and NC combined.

    so if you don't think VS is OP, you're in a small minority (and probably only play VS :D)
    • Up x 2
  7. pnkdth

    Tagged "S***post" for a reason. Quality banter though. I see the drama meta Emerald made popular is live and well.
    • Up x 1
  8. Demigan

    Factually false. On a per-population basis all 3 MBT's have historically been pulled about equal to each other. On top of that the TR and NC are more likely to be in each others way when using their tanks reducing the effectiveness when pulling more, something the Magrider does not have half as much problems with.

    And its not about ignorance or incompetence, its about effectiveness and enjoyment. The Magrider obviously offers better effectiveness and enjoyment for gunners.
    We actually know how that works. The early Prowler had such strong main canons that most gunners just didnt have any success killing targets. As the main canons were nerfed the topguns on the Prowler started to equalize more and more with the Vanguard. We've also seen how a mistake on the devs part creates an OP topgun, only for the gunner availability to immediately skyrocket. The average gunner population is almost directly tied to its effectiveness.
    We also see how the proper platform to mount something on can make all the difference. Harassers are far superior with nerfed secondaries than the topguns MBT's have. Similarly the Magrider as a platform is superior for gunners to sit in.

    Why wouldnt you see the correlation between his data and the conclusion? Its not rocketscience.
    As for the social side: superior platforms is what attracts them. It makes no sense to say that the internal VS culture has gotten used to more gunners when it only applies to the Magrider but not for NS vehicle gunner seats with NS weapons. There is also a severe lack of anyone actually saying anything about this both in-game and anywhere else unless its to try and defend the Magrider's superior statistics.
    Its also telling that the entire reasoning was turned upside down once the truth came out. The VS was the poor boys with the worst performing tanks! Yes! Then when it was proven they were not underperforming suddenly all these new insights magically appeared to justify them still having the weaker Magrider despite scoring better.

    No not logical.
    100 vehicles on TR, 100 on NC and 100 on VS. Assume all are equal in performance and division (so TR sends 50 to fight NC and 50 to VS). They also have an average of 1 vehicle kill per hour per player. Destroyed vehicles are replaced by a new one to keep it all balanced.

    Everyone would get the same score.

    Now we reduce the VS:
    100 for TR, 100 for NC and 50 for VS.
    The VS now are outnumbered. They can only send 25 to each side. This means less targets for the TR and NC to shoot at, but also that what Magriders remain have to die twice to keep that 1 vehicle kill per hour up. Dying twice means the VS now have to kill 2 times the amount of enemy vehicles to keep up, despite being outnumbered.
    The TR and NC can simply redistribute their vehicles and keep the same score up. Or they can push their advantage and kill more Magriders using their numbers. Unless you assume the VS suddenly have magic skill that only applies to their faction equipment, it means the VS would have the lowest VKPH as their tanks have a higher rate of being destroyed before they can do anything. The TR And NC are impacted and have less VKPH due to a lower MBT saturation (ignoring the option to redistribute vehicles) but have a higher chance to actually kill more Magriders. Worse: the VS non-MBT vehicles are now easier to kill by the TR and NC, boosting their VKPH.

    There isnt a scenario where the VS can have the upper hand in VKPH and the TR+NC lose VKPH due to a lower amount of Magriders unless the Magrider itself is blatantly superior.

    At least something we can agree on.
    • Up x 2
  9. Liewec123

  10. pnkdth

    Why would VS restrict themselves to using 1/2 Magriders? For the sake of this example?
  11. Demigan

    Its an EXAMPLE. It shows how, all being equal, the lower amount of Magriders can only mean the Magriders have a lower VKPH than the Prowlers and Vanguards.

    Also I based it on 2/2 tanks since there's more 2/2 tanks on each faction than 1/2 tanks, and people should stop acting like the TR and NC dont use gunners at all or that the VS scores better because every other vehicle they meet is a solo 1/2 vehicle.

    And the conclusion of the example is simple: the only way the VS can have better VKPH than the other two is by having a superior vehicle that both beats the fact that they are outnumbered and the fact that their skill is more or less equal to the other two factions. Proven with how the VS do not score significantly higher with NS weapons that arent directly related to a faction-specific feature.
  12. pnkdth

    How about an example that reflects the data we have? Also, the following statement makes absolutely no sense. VKPH means vehicle kills per hour, if you have less targets (which are according to probability are tougher targets) that statistic will suffer. We know for a fact VS use their tank as fully crewed vehicle more often. It is going to be more likely that a 2/2 wins against 1/2 and if facing another 2/2 vehicle it is a more even fight. Even IF the 2/2 v 2/2 battles are even the 1/2 tanks will inflate the Magrider stats. It is, after all, very hard to blow up more vehicles than there are vehicles, especially when you're trying to beat the clock (VKPH).

    Two players should beat one and you can't go by the amount of MBTs while ignoring the amount of players each faction invest into that MBT, example or not. It would also be strange to punish a faction for having more players crewing their MBT fully.
  13. pnkdth

    And I just realised I've been mulling over VKPU as VKPH. derp9000 on me.
  14. Demigan

    How about first we set an easy to understand baseline on how changes in vehicle numbers would alter the VKPH/VKPU, then look at what happens if you change stuff?

    And no matter how you twist and turn, the end result is the same: There is no cultural effect causing the VS to exclusively gun more for the Magrider. The Magrider itself is simply a superior vehicle to gun for.

    Note how the NC and TR score better with the Harasser version in almost every category compared to their MBT mounted version, but the VS score better with their Magrider secondary in almost every category. Obviously the Magrider is a great platform to place topguns on, so good in fact that it is more superior on most fronts than the Harasser. Contrast once again to the NC and TR who have trouble making their secondary shine... This is not about "oh but the Magrider has 2/2" here, this is about what the faction as a whole can achieve with a particular weapon. And as can be seen the Harasser version on the TR and NC, who have to content with 2/2 Magriders as well, are superior platforms for the secondaries compared to the MBT.
  15. Botji

    I see you are either avoiding making your own conclusions just to be able to play stupid or idk.
    I literally just explained why a gunner makes up a large part of how effective a Magrider can be, without one you are playing with horse blinders on not to mention how stupid it is to play a evasion *insert whatever here* in any game if you lack damage, what is the point of surviving longer if you still dont have the damage to kill the enemy before they kill you?
    Vanguards are kinda similar in that their specialty is "ME BRICK WALL!" but you get to experience the survivability that a top 10 Magrider driver can do, by pushing a button which is quite a bit more effective than what can be expected of the average Magrider driver. If Magriders were guaranteed to effectively tripple their health when they boosted around for a few seconds I am sure the crewed/solo % would be closer to the ~53% what the TR/NC has instead of 73% or whatever VS has now.

    You seem to assume that its 98% of all Magriders that have drivers with 10k hours using the damn thing and just dance around entire TR/NC tank lines when its the other way around, 98% of them cant even dodge a single MBT long enough to kill them without having a gunner. A solo Magrider is a joke against any other crewed MBT but if you see a solo Prowler or Vanguard in a crewed Magrider you still have to put on your gaming pants and consider them a very real threat, solo Prowlers have equal or superior DPS to your crewed Magrider so you cant just drive up to them and be sure you will win, Vanguards can push a button and suddenly they have enough health that you could line up two additional Vanguards in front of the one you are trying to kill making it more or less impossible to kill it before the shield runs out and yeah, a solo Vanguard can actually kill a Magrider during that time.

    And just to back this up with actual facts so it cant be dismissed, everyones favorite is here, math! Numbers! Yay!

    Magrider FPC/AP: 1125 damage per shot = 409,09 DPS(these will all be fully upgraded reload speed)
    Magrider Halberd: 720 damage per shot = 261,81 DPS
    Prowler AP: 900 damage per shot = 514,28 DPS(using +0,5 seconds fire delay)

    The FPC and Halberd have the same reload speed of 2,75 seconds so we can say they do a combined 1845 damage every 2,75 seconds. This means they still need to fire 3 times each to kill the Prowler, first shots are 'free' from reloading time since they are already loaded so if we exclude the first shots the TTK is 5,5 seconds.

    The Prowler does 900 damage per shot meaning it has to hit 6 times and the delay between shots adds 0,5 seconds for every 2 shots and it also only needs to reload twice since the first 2 are already loaded. Total time to fire 6 times is 7,5 seconds. Clearly the Magrider has the advantage and will win that fight.

    Then the Prowler presses one button and gets 30% faster reloads, I dont know if the ability reduces from the original 3,5 seconds or 3 seconds(upgraded reload speed) so lets try both.
    3 seconds reload = 0,9 seconds reduction
    3,5 seconds reload = 1,05 seconds reduction

    I personally think it uses the stock reload speed as the reduction and its rounded down to 1 second. Anyway, it should either reduce the total time by 1,8 seconds or 2 seconds which brings the total time down to 5,5-5,7 seconds. A reminder, this is a solo Prowler and a crewed Magrider takes 5,5 seconds to kill the Prowler as well.

    A Vanguard is a little easier to math it out with.

    Vanguard AP: 1275 damage per shot = 392,3 DPS, lowest of them all.

    To make matters worse, it has to hit 4 times so it needs to reload 3 times instead of just twice like the Prowler and the reload speed is obviously slower bringing the total time to kill the Magrider up to 9,75 seconds while the Magrider and its FPC+Halberd kills it with 3 reloads, 8,25 seconds. Another clear win for the Magrider, yaay!

    Then the Vanguard presses one button and gets 67% damage reduction, effectively trippling its health for 8 seconds. During these 8 seconds the Magrider fires 4 times with both its FPC and Halberd, doing a amazing 371 damage per FPC and 238 damage per Halberd hit which combines to 609 damage per volley! With 4 of those the crewed Magrider almost kills the Vanguard with 2436 damage!

    Im sure the Magrider will be able to do the remaining 3564 damage it needs to kill the Vanguard in the 1,75 seconds it has left to live before the solo Vanguard fires the last shot to kill them. It takes another two shots from the FPC+Halberd to do this which brings the TTK up to 13,75 seconds = the Vanguard can fire 5 times.

    So if I stop being so sarcastic, the Magrider has to dodge at least two of the 5 shots to have a chance and if it dodges two of them the solo Vanguard still did 3825 damage to the crewed Magrider, that is 76,5% of the Magriders health gone while it had a 40% evasion in that fight which by any means is not what anyone can expect from a 'average' Magrider driver.

    Ofc in a real fight things dont play out exactly like this since there can be cover and stuff which affects things but I have to highlight how weak a Magrider is compared to what a solo Prowler/Vanguard can do just by sheer stats, this was a crewed Magrider going up against solo Prowlers and Vanguards so its kinda silly to even consider taking a solo Magrider out to fight these or worse, crewed versions of them.

    Any more questions with obvious answers why VS are heavily incentivized to not drive solo Magriders and why this would lead to having more "organized" MBT teams than TR/NC that have comparably fully functional tanks even when solo?

    So the Magrider hover and is stable = less likely to get flanked? What does that even mean?
    Its the hover/hill climbing/boost that allows it to flank others more easily than other MBTs how does that stop you from going behind/on the side and flanking them though?

    And yep, getting hit twice in the rear is a problem but is more likely with a Magrider than most other tanks tbh since if the enemy vehicle is close they could ram you and then its up to RNGesus where your front ends up pointing but that was not what I was saying. You get hit once from behind, then you turn and before/as you get your front to now face whatever is behind you they kinda get to shoot you again, in the side/face and a Magrider isnt doing that well after a main gun + secondary in the rear and side/front, thats like 2/3 of its health gone before or just as it fires its first shot while other tanks can fire theirs well before the enemy has reloaded. Turrets are nifty that way but perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that they get something like 1.7 free shots on a rear flanked Magrider.

    Cant really agree with the last part though, a Vanguard has even a decent chance of winning that fight while a Prowler is for sure worse off.

    Magrider FPC+Halberd in the rear = 1688 + 1080 = 2768 damage
    Vanguard still has 3232 health left and turns on it shield and turns around and fires as well, doing 1275 + 720 = 1995 damage
    Magrider dunks on it again, hitting side armor and shield now doing 854 + 546 = 1400 damage
    Vanguard still has 1832 health, Magrider now has 3005 health
    Both fire again, Magrider now hitting front armor and shield = 609 damage, Vanguard 1995 damage
    Vanguard has 1223 health, Magrider down to 1010 health.

    Guess who dies with the next volley? Its not the Vanguard, thats for sure... unless it turned on the shield right after it got hit from behind wasting almost 3 seconds of the shield duration on the Magrider reload cycle(dont do that) and yes the Vanguard only needs to fire 3 times with its AP and then get 2 Halberd hits to kill a Magrider which means it only has to reload twice with the main gun, takes 6,5 seconds, well within the 8 seconds the shield lasts and fast enough to only let the Magrider fire a total of 3 times, including the rear hit, not nearly enough to kill a Vanguard with it shields up, even if its not all front hits or even side hits with a free rear hit.

    Again, in actual combat range and such matters but it shows how weak a Magrider is in direct combat. Even if you get the rear on a Vanguard you do NOT want to be in close combat with it as it can still smack you around. Sure the Magrider can boost to get on the side/rear armor but if you are that close the Vanguard either didnt see you coming on the minimap or the Magrider has Stealth = no strafe boost = awkward to no give the Vanguard at least a side hit as you go for their side, trade a rear hit for a rear hit or if very unlucky, get hit from below and take +100% damage instead of the +50% that a rear hit does. No matter what its risky.

    If its not knife fighting range like that the Vanguard also has a much easier time to turn its front to you so not amazing but preferable to going in much closer. You have to think as if you were in a Harasser, great got the rear hit but now you have to still grind it down while playing safe. Would still give the Magrider the advantage since most people panic if they get flanked like that but facts are facts, its surprisingly easy to lose such a fight in a Magrider if you think you can just tank the damage and quickly 'finish it off'.

    Magriders dont avoid head on fights if they have the range to work with, otherwise the math shows quite clearly what kind of disadvantage it has in head on fights. A Magrider is paper if it cant reliably dodge a fair bit above 50% of the shots going for it and I have my "personal bias" to back it up which is considerably more than you have ever brought to any of these discussions. Will we have another "But it will dooooodge and kill us all!" fact thrown in here again?

    I cant honestly understand what you are trying to say with the stats link there.

    "Nope the TR and NC do not pull more HEAT and HESH because they think they are safer or anything, and the VS do not pull more AP because they feel threatened by the big bad TR/NC MBT's."

    Ok... but in the stats they do pull more MBTs in general so they are pulling more HEAT and HESH so.. yeah? In no way does these stats make it clear that the higher % of solo TR/NC MBTs does not swap their primary more than the VS does that have a higher % of crewed MBTs.

    Since you used more relevant stats this time I will do these again, doing your job for you just to prove your 'fact' filled claims are wrong is a bit tiring tbh but I knew that going into this so here. Stats are from October 4th this year.

    1443 VS MBT primary
    2748 NC
    2625 TR

    970 VS secondary
    1428 NC
    1446 TR

    Pointing to that 67,2% Magriders, 51,9% Vanguards and 55% Prowlers are crewed. My guess of why these have evened out over the years is simply that there are more people playing and more new people joining compared to the stats from before which likely had a higher % of 'veterans' sticking with the game. Anyways, Magriders still have a decent advantage on having their MBT crewed or not and I will still stick to my theory that solo MBTs are more prone to switching their primary depending on what fight they are going to because going solo probably means they dont plan to go fully into hunting other vehicles as it would put them at a disadvantage if they face crewed vehicles.

    Tbh both funny and irritating that you even dare bring up bias here since I dont see you backing up anything you say with anything but what you think and feel is happening even though we have stats showing that a decently significant higher number of Magriders are crewed compared to the other MBTs and that alone could be enough to pad any sort of performance statistics but you just put all that to the Magrider being some mythical beast which defies all logic and is just best at everything so people throw themselves on Magriders as they pass by to gun for them instead of the logical conclusion that crewed MBTs perform better than solo MBTs. You bring up stats but so far they dont exactly support what you are saying, 2 years ago Magrider primaries had a big advantage but then they also had a +20% advantage on crewed vehicles on top of a average BR advantage of the players using them as well as a much lower player population, now the crew advantage is closer and the Prowler is the one with a big advantage.

    Almost as if its hard to dodge a lot of bullets and that the tank with the undisputedly highest DPS scales really well with numbers, I could never have guessed something logical as that happening.... but I know you think the Magrider scales in some mystic way where volume of fire doesnt matter, it will just dodge everything anyway.

    More numbers.
    KPU primary(combined)
    VS: 28,857
    NC: 27,014
    TR: 34,077

    VKPU primary(combined)
    VS: 16,871
    NC: 16,444
    TR: 18,471

    So where is your facts now then?
    Higher average BR ranks are driving Magriders than Prowlers/Vanguards but im sure that also means the Magrider is just too good even though its the Prowler that is currently quite heavily outperforming the others. Oh, dont look at the Aircraft KPH because both the Vanguard and Prowler more than doubles what the Magrider does there.. ops? Probably just means that Aircraft dont even dare to get close to a Magrider, yup, has to be. Its not like the Magrider has the worst ability to aim up and has to turn their entire tank instead of a turret to aim, the heavy damage a Vanguard AP does(and a bit of extra velocity) matters or a Prowler getting 50% velocity on their shots when they Anchor down making it easier to hit fast and/or far away targets.. nope nope nope, none of that.

    Might not bother with this anymore, I know you will never change but I think there is enough actual facts to show any crazy reader that bothers with this that at least the Magrider is not OP in any way but perhaps math and statistics is all made up just because of my bias since you are apparently not biased at all and all facts points to the Magrider actually being better than the other MBTs, somehow... just gotta trust your word for it :rolleyes:

    Realized I didnt go into detail on this so I will before it gets ignored, some people claim the Magrider is OP etc etc but its consistently the least used MBT, currently it seems Vanguard and Prowlers are almost twice as much used, how does that even make sense to you? Wouldnt something OP be (ab)used by whatever faction has it? *Cough*Vulcan Harasser*Cough*
    • Up x 1
  16. Demigan

    I'll probably not even bother reading the rest of your post since just the start alone is insults and hypocracy. I keep pointing out that your entire assumption just can't work, it makes no sense. Yet you then turn around and say "but I told you this far-fetched explanation and you have to believe me now!".
    It's quite literally in the first sentence you quoted. it's one sentence that basically explains it all.

    Going through your data quickly, you say you want to "correct my data" but then immediately say you stick by your theory that the NC and TR are more likely to pick the HEAT and HESH for farm purposes, while I already proved to you that isn't the case.

    Nope, not worth pouring more effort in this source of misinformation and tinfoil hat theories.
  17. pnkdth


    Not only do we have people explicitly saying a 1/2 Magrider is bad but we also have a familiar face who even then popped up in every VS thread telling everyone how awesome VS weapons are. This was well known back in 2013...We also had non-VS players claim the Magrider was super stable and awesome yet VS players complained about rocks and pebbles ruining their aim and in some extreme cases made the tank blow up. If you search for the Saron you'll also see the rollercoaster of buffs and nerfs. General theme though, you gotta get that secondary weapon going.

    "The only thing I think is OP about the Mag is the Saron secondary. That thing is powerful enough itself to be it's own separate tank.

    As for the tank itself - it's fine. Seriously, I suggest you folks actually give it a try. It's not as mobile as you might think it is. Turning it around during battle is like trying to wrestle a drunk cow. (Although the Vanguard is also a quite the hand-full during battle)

    Next time you get your tank wrecked by a Magrider I would take a second look at your kill-screen and look at what actually killed you. I bet you most of the time the damage majority came from the Saron gunner or someone else's Saron."

    And some silly stuff when from when pebbles were the Magriders nemesis,

    All BR:
    Vanguard 5087
    Prowler 6493
    Magrider 10613

    Q4 BR:
    Vanguard 1575
    Prowler 2256
    Magrider 4875"

    TL;DR: The fact the secondary weapon for VS is what made the tank work wasn't a well kept secret. It was common knowledge among VS players.
  18. iller

    Why are you guys still going on and on and on about the Tanks? Neither Tanks nor ESF's actually HOLD territory. People in tiny little crowded corridors point rooms with accurate guns that work at every range hold point rooms. Those buildings are all completely closed off from Tanks and ESFs
  19. Demigan

    This is a perfect example why self reporting isnt a great tool. The 2014 post for example touches on the PPA but the VS players either ignore it or insult the person bringing it up, even though at the time the PPA could stop entire platoons in a literal point-and-click style.

    This willfull downplaying of their own strengths ofcourse isnt exclusive to the VS. Early ESF noseguns and Rocketpods, Prowler main guns, most iterations of the Vulcan, the week that the Phoenix was released, Lancers, ZOE, Saron etc were all defended by their respective factions, sometimes not even trying to hide it with things like "they got OP toys and now its our turn". But the VS has had so many OP toys over the years, and still has some that persist to this day while the VS play victim.

    I often say and repeat it here: those performance stats are a guideline. We should look at adding features and mechanics to all 3 MBT's (and other vehicles too) and use that guideline to equalize their performance while making them all more unique and capable.
  20. Botji

    As I said, I have written in detail why a Magrider is much worse off without a gunner than the other MBT and you were still pointing out: "This once again assumes the VS organize more than the NC and TR, but only on their Magrider as they don't do it anywhere else."

    That is exactly what I am saying. The Magrider depends heavily on the gunner, not having a gunner is super bad for a Magrider. This means Magrider drivers will do what they can to get a gunner beyond what a TR/NC driver would and are more likely to stick with gunners that they work well with, also because a good gunner is so important for a good Magrider = VS are more 'organized' than NC or TR are with their MBTs. Its simple, if your vehicle is gimped without a gunner, you get a gunner. Vanguards and Prowlers are not gimped without one, more people drive them solo for a reason. Common sense supports this, the stats support this. You are the one trying to argue that it would be strange to be that way but you dont have anything to support that.

    Compare the Magrider with something like the Vulcan Harasser, it has a little more than twice as many unique users than Saron and Aphelion combined, Enforcer and Mjolnir combined is only 66% of the Vulcan users and its not as if TR falls behind on the other Harasser AV weapons either meaning more TR are using the Harasser and most of them are using the Vulcan. Reason for that should be obvious to anyone that has used it or had it used on them, its fairly high up on the 'A bit too good' scale and the stats do show that as well, its not only the unique user stats for the Vulcan that are inflated compared to the rest.

    I "correct your data" because you make claims which the stats you bring dont support and if they do you are horrible at explaining what you think they are showing. The first set of stats that were ~2 years old did not support what you said, they did show Magriders having the advantage but the same stats also showed the Magriders having a huge advantage on crewed % as well as having a player BR advantage making any claims of "Magrider OP" highly questionable since either of those two stats could be the cause for why the Magrider performs better than the other MBTs, more crewed and a 'perhaps' more experienced crew should mean a vehicle performs better than its equals that are on average less crewed and used by lower BR players, anything else is what would be weird. A vehicle that is much more often fully crewed and even has a player BR rank advantage performing equal or less than its equals? Perfect example of a vehicle that is in need of a buff, not a OP vehicle.

    Your newest stats show whatever this means:

    "Lot of "perhaps" and "maybe's" in there. I wonder if we can check if it's true?

    Hey we can! Nope the TR and NC do not pull more HEAT and HESH because they think they are safer or anything, and the VS do not pull more AP because they feel threatened by the big bad TR/NC MBT's."

    That shows TR and NC pull more of everything because their totals are much higher than the VS ones are, fail to understand what you are trying to prove with this.

    As a sidenote, you might not be aware that Magrider HEAT technically has a shorter TTK against Prowlers and Vanguards
    Prowler TTK 10,5 vs 11 seconds with AP
    Vanguard TTK 12,25 vs 13,75 seconds with AP
    I dont expect the majority of people to know this so AP would be the obvious choice, it does have other advantages so even knowing about it might make people use AP anyway but yeah, sidenote.

    The other stats for this period shows the Magrider and Vanguard performing almost equally while the Prowler is pulling far ahead both of them. Again, what in the stats show the supposed OP Magrider? Magrider does not have the best stats, by far the least number of unique users making these stats completely backwards for what you are saying. The Magrider would be the most used MBT in the game if it was such a amazing tank instead of the least used. It would have the best stats instead of being slightly ahead of the Vanguard and far behind the Prowler.

    So again, not sure if you are actively not reading/understanding on purpose or what. Kinda leaning on the purposeful ignorance here since you go in for the deflection now and try to pass all the math and statistics as misinformation and tinfoil hat theories of all things when somone bothers to actually look at the stats and see that they dont prove what you are saying they do.

    If you dont like people to question whats going on in your head it would help if you did not just dump links to stats and make claims of what they are showing since there is obviously at least one more way to look at them and come to more or less the complete opposite conclusion that you take for granted, you should explain why the stats are showing what they are. Actually, you should explain everything you make claims for or dont agree with otherwise its just a "Nope." answer and I will keep my opinion that you have no good arguments or anything to base your claims on.

    Its at this point most Pilots with Pilotitis either goes AWOL, goes into a obvious "Nuh uh! You are wrong!" and still wont bring anything to back up what they are saying or just picks one of many options to keep going where they started, ignoring everything said so far probably counting on anyone discussing with them to give up in frustration. Perhaps I will need to come up with a new name for a imaginary sickness that affects tank drivers and their ability to view facts. Yes, I am making a bit fun of you and the whole point of it is to get you to do what im telling you so dont mind that and just prove me wrong. Its not a high bar I am setting here.

    But seriously, I will probably make up some illness for this if I have to so I have a easier way to describe the behaviour and Pilotitis doesnt fit nearly as well when its about tank-stuff.