Simple physics for why 0.75 ADS is not OP

that reaction time is why the .75 ads has the "initiative" assuming both players are of exact equal skill and there is no lag in effect. relative to the .75 ADS user the .5 ads user cannot cover nearly as much ground if both players have the unlikely luck to having the exact same reaction times. its a fun accurate model if you take it in a vacuum as just relativity, but its woefully inaccurate for describing the situation. start making the ratio between the two weapons have even more disparity and it gets even less accurate as a model, because both players re not going to be changing direction and aim angle in the same fashion at the exact same time.


at this moment you have pretty much committed the sin of moving your goalposts now that you are talking down to people about reaction times assuming they mean nothing in context to one player having a mobility advantage.

Well if it isn't a big deal, I would like to have .75 back on my lynx please.

Not a relevant example, but again, not wrong in the experiments context.

A more suitable example would be to take two fencers, since we're now talking about two players who are trying to hit each other. They are both of equal skill, but one in only allowed to move at 50% speed and the other at 75% speed. I guarantee the one moving with 75% speed is going to win almost every time, and he is not going to start to horribly overcompensate for his movements because the target is slower.

We aren't arguing relativity. We are arguing about reaction time. So you aren't wrong in the respect that yeah, the bus and the car are motionless relative to each other, but the point still stands that the car locked at 50 MPH doesn't have the same control as the car that can get up to 75.

Scenario A:
total speed when they go in different direction is 1.25 they have to adjust for X

Scenario B
total speed when they go in different direction is 1.25 they have to adjust for X

X=X

X will always be = to X even if players go to 1.25, 1.50 or even half the speed of light (because nothing can go faster than the speed of light in relation to something else, but this is more complicated because then time slows down and stuff)

Only thing is, one of these two players has control over a larger amount of the total speed, so he can account for that. He literally has more control over the situation because he controls 3/5s of the total speed.

there is no deceleration time nor is there acceleration time for strafing infantry (we won't bring MAXes here), so they will always go the total speed in relation to each other, which means if they go in the same direction, it will be 0.25 and if they go in opposite it will be 1.25, this applies to both and all the time. No matter if it's the one with 0.5 or 0.75 changing direction, it will always be 0.25 or 1.25 movement speed between each other and that's the same for BOTH. At this point what you can't understand is simple additions of |50 + 75| and |50 + -75| or |75 + 50| and |75 + -25|

My beef with .75 ADS is that it is on an LMG (any LMG, even the NS-15M). On an SMG it is fine, they are limited in several ways and hipfire weapons anyway. .75 ADS on LMGs is right out as you can negate the heavy shield debuff and before that are still strafing faster.

Another thing you probably should take into account is that bullets don't travel at the speed of light. On top of that, we have COF in this game and that doesn't help much for accuracy. The bullets also do not inherit your momentum, so two targets strafing left will find bullets going to the right of their targets. Our aim isn't perfect, so assuming we will aim at either the center of mass or the extreme of our targets is something I would not expect of the average player.

And the cherry on top is that the physics of it matter less and less the more and more we think about the way your opponent's position is shown to you on your screen. Ever see enemies warp left or right unnaturally fast? That is the game trying to keep up with their movements and show them as accurately as the server can. This gets worse as the server gets more stressed, or as your connection gets worse. If data travelled and was processed faster than the speed of light we would not have this issue.

.75 ADS on LMGs would be ok-er if we had serverside hit detection, but the current clientside hit detection does not make it easier to hit consistent shots on warping enemies. Warping is also fairly easy to exploit. The most extreme (as infantry) is rapidly sprinting back and forth since there is no yaw limit when sprinting and no acceleration when changing directions.

This is less of a problem on guns and classes with no or minimal HP buffs, but on the HA we have high capacity weapons with .75 ADS and a 700 health boost (or 40% bullet resist) that can be pulled almost instantaneously. You wouldn't let the heavy move as fast as the pyro in TF2, this is the same thing here (game design wise)

I probably did a shoddy job explaining this, but the problem with .75 ADS is the ability to quickly (faster than usual) change directions and cause your on screen character to warp around on your enemy's screen.

Now, game balance stuff that people can more easily understand. .75 ADS should be removed from all LMGs (Orion, SVA-88, and the NS-15M) and the weapons with .75 ADS removed should be buffed to compensate the loss of the stat. Not a nerf, a rebalance. If this was to come, it should come in a VS LMG revamp where the VS LMGs get rebalanced and revamped to fit more identifiable roles and do better than they are now at them.

Only thing is, one of these two players has control over a larger amount of the total speed, so he can account for that. He literally has more control over the situation because he controls 3/5s of the total speed. (quoted from above)

The .75 ADS player knows to account for 3/5s of that speed, because he knows where he'll be. Comparatively, the guy with .5 can only account beforehand for movement based on his own movements. It is no different than the situation where one guy ADADs and the other stands still, except now the ADAD guy has a small portion of movement that he won't be able to account for beforehand.

ok now add in reaction time for both players and calculate how the player initiating a change in direction will know they are doing it before hand so their reaction time is essentially zero when they go to readjust to to keep aim on target while apposing the opponents vector. the amount of time for adjustment of fire angle the faster player is going to be less then he slower player when they initiate. you cant do math without all the variables that are required to solve the problem, its called an ill posed question, you have only included some of the variables of the problem so there is not enough information to make a concrete conclusion.


you are only as you say giving a basic physics lesson, but someone needs to take am advanced math lesson.

Your argument is invalid. It uses logic. We dont take kindly to logic 'round here.

I'm going to use an extreme example.

-Player A is moving at 250m/s to the right.
-Player B is moving at 1m/s to the right.

If Player A starts moving at 250m/s to the left, there's a change of 500m/s.
If Player B starts moving at 1m/s to the left, there's a change of 2m/s.

Ok, let's use an even more detailed example.

Player A and B
A goes 0.75
B goes 0.5

A and B go in the same direction
Relative speed = speed of A - speed of B
0.75-0.5 = 0.25

B changes direction and goes the opposite side
Relative speed = speed of A - speed of B
0.75-(-0.5) = 1.25

change in speed? |1.25| - |0.25| = 1.00

A and B go in the same direction
Relative speed = speed of A - speed of B
0.75-0.5 = 0.25

A changes direction
Relative speed = speed of A - speed of B
-0.75-0.5 = -1.25

change in speed? |-1.25| - |0.25| = 1.00

No matter who changes direction, the change of speed between both players is the SAME.

Ok, let's use an even more detailed example.

Player A and B
A goes 0.75
B goes 0.5

A and B go in the same direction
Relative speed = speed of A - speed of B
0.75-0.5 = 0.25

B changes direction and goes the opposite side
Relative speed = speed of A - speed of B
0.75-(-0.5) = 1.25

change in speed? |1.25| - |0.25| = 1.00

A and B go in the same direction
Relative speed = speed of A - speed of B
0.75-0.5 = 0.25

A changes direction
Relative speed = speed of A - speed of B
-0.75-0.5 = -1.25

change in speed? |-1.25| - |0.25| = 1.00

No matter who changes direction, the change of speed between both players is the SAME.

The change YOU are talking about is the change in relation to the GROUND, which is completely IRRELEVENT because you are not aiming at the GROUND you are aiming at a PLAYER.

You still don't get it. You keep seeming them as equal. They are not because one you can you can anticipate and plan for because your are doing it you can't for your enemies because you don't control it. This give you an advantage if you are the player that is moving faster because you gain the biggest benefit from the movement that you don't plan for.

It the amount of UNPLANNED SUDDEN MOVEMENT that makes the difference if you are faster you gain more during this window then the other player. You can plan for yours, You CAN'T plan for your enemies.

YES, your change in position relative to each other is always equal. No one is questioning that. That is not the point it not where the benefit comes from.

They should just remove 0.75 ADS from LMGs to get rid of the whining, if nothing else. Because frankly, the ADS bonus is wasted on heavies. Either they don't use their shield ability, so their movement is no different than somebody using an AR, SMG, shotgun or Carbine with 0.75 ADS speed. Or they use their ability, and they move slower than 0.5 ADS anyway.

No, the change in relation to the ground is what matters.

This is why strafing works in up-close infantry battles.

It's because you force your opponent to reacquire their aim on you when you change directions.

It isn't hard to lead someone at 10m. The only reason strafing matters is because there's no transition between changing directions.

I don't think you understand the grade school physics involved in this. And I think you understand the network component and target display even less.

If you are shooting at two targets in two situations, with one moving 3 m/s and shooting from a platform moving 2 m/s (both have parallel vectors and are both moving in the same direction), and the other target moving at 2m/s while your platform is moving at 3 m/s, which is going to be harder to hit?

There are a few special rules to consider to fit in with Planetside 2 physics:
-Platform velocity is not inherited by the projectile once leaving the platform (projectile does not travel at 30 m/s forward and 3 m/s to the right)
-Accuracy is not a concern, as there is a pretend 0 ADS COF in this instance. Your projectile will go where you shoot it
-The projectile has velocity (make it up, it must be less than 300 000 m/s)
-The whole system is in a weightless vacuum (no resistance, no gravity*)
-Distance between the target and you is 25m, short range in planetside 2

I am fairly sure I didn't forget any important numbers here, so tell me which target will be easier to hit and then we will move on to the next example.

*Gravity is excluded for the purpose of gravity values being different per gun. I know, its cheap, but lets keep it simple and not have 10 different sets of math for the purpose of total realism in this scenario.

So you're saying that the person with the highest speed creates a bigger gap between the time he changes direction and the time the person registers it? That's even more irrelevent, unless your mouse DPI's so low that it actually takes countable time time to move of 0.1 degree more (probably not even 0.1 milimeter more on the mousepad).

What matters is who instigated the change. The player that changes the most can most easily account for the change.