Simple physics for why 0.75 ADS is not OP

No, but the guy doing ADAD know where he will have to keep his mouse ahead of time, the guy standing still has to account for movement as it happens. That is where the reaction time come into play.

EDIT: Not saying .75 movement speed is inherently OP, but it is a very good bonus to any weapon. Unfortunately the Orion doesn't trade much for this benefit, that's why it's OP-ness is in question.

if they guy ADADing is attacking a target that is not moving and correctly predicts that he will remain stationary then the person moving will have the advantage since they will through experience be able to know how far they will be moving and predict their own firing angle to target more accurately. the guy standing deciding to stand still and fire back still has to guess when the other guy will shift left our right does he not?


or has relativity suddenly removed the serpentine maneuver?

And then the guy behind you with the shotgun sends you to the respawn screen before you see your first hit counter.

In a world where infantry die to:

- Shotgunz
- Grenades
- Rocket Primary Heroes
- MAXes, all flavours
- Vehicle AI
- Air AI
- Vehicle AV
- Air AV

0.75 ADS weapons are really insignificant to the outcome of any particular fight.

I'd like to see a 0.75 ADS Heavy take a point against a wall of engie turrets.

What? No wall of engie turrets around the point? Blame your outfit leader, not the 0.75 ADS gunz.

This is Planetside 2, not Joust. A 1v1 ADAD fight is no big deal.

The problem is not .75x speed itself, It is the rate at which they can change directions.

Let's say one person is tracking another, and that second person is tracking the first as well, but only the second one is moving.

First, if the second person, has .5x ADS. Let's say their base movement speed is 4m/s, resulting in a ADS move speed of 2m/s.
Then the second person changes direction. The first person is subject to a approximate reaction time of .5 seconds before they change the tracking direction, meaning that the second person has already moved 1m in the opposite direction, meaning the second players aim is now 2m off. It will take some time for the first player to get their aim back on the target. The second player is not subject to this, because they know when they are changing direction, so their aim is never off. This is why strafing is so powerful.

Now, let's say the second player has a weapon with .75x ADS. Their ADS movement speed is now 3m/s, so when they change directions. The first persons aim is now 3m off. Therefore, it will TAKE LONGER TO RETURN THEIR AIM TO THE TARGET. And still, the second person is NOT subject to this because they know when they are changing direction.

One logical arguement will be retuned by another (after a bunch of trolls)

Here are example scenarios to explain.

Scenario A:

- 0.5x guy and 0.75x guy are strafing to the right.

- 0.5x guy suddenly strafes to the left.

- 0.5x guy forces both players to adjust for X.

Scenario B:

- 0.5x guy and 0.75x guy are strafing to the right.

- 0.75x guy suddenly strafes to the left.

- 0.75x guy forces both players to adjust for Y.

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Point 1: Y > X and will always be greater than X. Therefore, the 0.75x user has more control over the engagement.

Even if both players have to adjust for the same change, the 0.75x user controls the greater change.

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Point 2: In both scenarios the player initiating the strafe change has the advantage because they know it is coming. From their perspective their opponent is NOT warping. It is not the same for both sides; the one initiating the strafe change is able to keep their aim on target. Because of this, the player who can initiate a greater strafe change has more of an advantage.

When 0.5x guy changes his strafe, his aim stays on target while 0.75x guy adjusts for X.

When 0.75x guy changes his strafe, his aim stays on target while 0.5x guy adjusts for Y.

Y is harder to adjust for than X, so it is harder for 0.5x guy to adjust. 0.75x guy has the advantage.

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TL;DR I explain why strafing at the speed of light is better than strafing at the speed of smell.

I am just going to ignore it cause something else might kill you....Is not valid balance logic .

Here's the logic.

In a game where there are so many variables in play, ignoring all other relevant variables to focus on 1 single aspect of gunplay is a pointless exercise. There is as much logic focusing attention solely on balancing LMG ADS as there is in balancing an LMG against a faction specific AV cannon.

If you want to debate the merits of two people duelling 1v1 ADAD style with different ADS speeds, then you have to bring in two people dueling ADAD style with different bullet damage models (only NC gets the 200 damage per bullet LMG), is that fair? Does that make NC OP? You can bring in whatever other factor people want to spend time bean counting in if you want.

Like I've said before, in a game of this scale, there are far more fundamentally important issues the playerbase ought to focus on. Locking MAX suits, special faction guns and abilities to bases to make them worth capturing and holding, giving vehicles objectives, giving us a real resource system, this kind of stuff will make PS2 a much much better game.

Complaining about the VS having 0.75 ADS on their LMGs will not.

It would be great if the community could some more time focussing on those issues, real game design, rather than nit picking spreadsheets about this or that stat which ultimately doesn't determine who wins alerts or who captures bases.

I'm saying until you can get the game fixed, having an easily exploitable bug is making 0.75 bad for the game. That's where the initial whine from ZOE came from. ADADAD at pre-nerf speeds exploited the buggy nature of the netcode and client side model placement, which allows players to shrug off what would have been direct hits otherwise. On most infantry it was fine, on MAXs, not so much. (I do agree that it was overnerfed to oblivion though).
However with the recent updates to the game, along with hitching, have brought back a multitude of hit detection issues for many if not all players.
Also you're hyperbole and Slippery slope fallacy do not impress.

Sorry, it affects every single gun fight your in with the weapon.

Being able to move faster is a benift saying it's not is silly.

Debating whether or nor .75 ADS is a benefit to a weapon or not is a valid discussion, and that's what the OP seems to be implying. Saying the Orion or other .75 ADS guns aren't more powerful because of it is just ridiculous.

1) i meant Spatial
2) there actually are people who say 0.75 is op in itself without looking at the weapon
3) i don't talk down to people, if i did i wouldn't bother making a thread explaining grade school physics and just laugh at people instead.

Good so you understand that they both have to move their mouse.

Now you have to understand that they are both ADAD, and when one changes direction it goes from 1.25 between the 2 (both are moving at the EXACT same speed in relation to the other) to 0.25 or from 0.25 to 1.25, which is the same for both, which means the person who changes direction has the ''they knew it was gonna happen" advantage and it's the exact same advantage as the other player when he does it also, and since you still don't seem to have read my last paragraph of my OP, i'll copy paste it to you here:

''but yuuki! why do we ADAD if it's as hard to aim for both players but only the player moving loses the movement accuracy?'' Well darling, that's because when you suddenly change direction, it takes a little moment for our primate brains to take account for it and going back on target, and this is why the person who wins in an ADAD fight with exact same weapons, no matter which move speed it is (0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.50) is the person who can ''juke'' it's opponent the most with the sudden changes of directions

You kinda just contradicted yourself there.

0.75 ads op? no
is 0.75 useful? yes

ADAD is used to screw with character animation. Animation would show you enemy is taking a step to the left when he suddenly teleports right. This is why 0.75x weapons have advantage over 0.5x given you have mastered the ADAD dance.

Still point to take home is that you can somewhat mitigate the advantage of 0.75 weapon if you do ADAD yourself.

The only problem is that you're wrong in the context of the game, OP.

You are moving slower on my screen. I am moving faster on your screen. I am not going to forget I am using a 0.75x movement speed weapon and start flailing back and forth when I change direction. Since I am the one changing direction, I am going to change my mouse movement accordingly, and relative to me you are quite slow, and you are the one who is going to have to react versus a faster moving object making your aim adjustment more tricky. Key word being, react. Your movements are trival for me to compesate for, and therefor easier to react to.

I am also going to use my strafe speed to lessen the need for mouse adjustment. This applies to non-ADS targets as well, as relatively to me they appear slower when using a 0.75x movement speed as opposed to a 0.5x movement speed. Indeed, I might have to go in and out of ADS to be able to catch them.

Then there is lag compensation. When I cut a corner, I will have the edge on you because I see you before you see me. Ever felt like "WTF? I got instant killed?" Well, this is why. You were already dead on my screen before you could shoot back. Likewise, "I died when I was behind a wall?!??!?!" Same thing, but now it was because you running to cover. On my screen you weren't quite there yet.

For the purposes of your example, you are not wrong, but your example is not valid in the context of the game. You are right when you claim it is about your position compared to mine, but your example requires both players to move in perfect synchronicity and anticipate each others movments perfectly. This will not happen in real life unless you have two players practicing this together for a long time.

When fighting someone who ADADs like crazy, the .75 compared to the .5 is a big difference in how fast they're moving (relative to the shooter, yadayada), they cover greater distance than the .5. What this means is that it's a scaling effect of your "ADAD vs Non-moving target". If someone ADADed with a .1 weapon, would they have the same 'Juking' capabilities as the .75? Or if someone had a 2.0 Movement modifier? It's the same effect, only scaled. The ADAD-er has more control over the situation because he can predict more accurately where his mouse needs to point.

And this is exactly what i've spend almost 30 minutes writing about in my OP. The speed of people walking in relation to the map is completely irrelevent. The speed one person is walking in relation to his target is what's important, and the speed between 2 points is always the same no matter which point you use as referrence. In this case if both players go in the same direction, they will both see the other player moving 0.25 units of speed in relation to the other. If both players go in opposite direction, they will both go in 1.25 units of speed in relation to the other. The individual speeds will only modify the result of the aggregation of the total speed which both players feel equally in relation to the other.

Lets just remove it from all weapons, since its not useful and all.

Ok, go do an experiment. Go in a car/bus/train, and look at another vehicle going at the exact same speed as you, in the exact same direction. Are they moving on Earth? yes! because your reference point is the ground. Are they moving in relation to you? NO, because you are looking at him and he's staying right beside you even though you are both going 50mph or kph or whatever speed. If he goes faster, he will move away from you at the DIFFERENCE of speeds, which means you move away from him at the exact same speed if he is the one looking at you.

you know why? because the vectors are added to each other. You don't need to be synchronised wth are you even taking that bs from? the SPEED at which you move from someone is the same SPEED at which they move from you. It is always like this, in PS2, in super mario, in real life and even in other countries.