Mattocks are pretty much the only thing I run anymore on my MAX, usually with slugs. GU8 pretty much established that reloads will absolutely doom us so every shot needs to count. Mattocks hit for less up close, but hit for more at the ranges that people generally engage in, and more pellets hit meaning you need fewer shots and can be more careful about your reloads. GU9 gave us a way to usually survive a reload at the expense of 80% of our already bad mobility. They're expensive though, and if I didn't already have them I'd probably be using Grinders @ 250 certs each. It's no mystery why Grinders have the highest SPM of any NC MAX weapon - they've got the biggest mags on a weapon type that's limited by slow reloads and small mag size.
I think slugs are kind of useless. In VR they're amazing, but out in the field with, lag and moving targets they're really not that much more effective than regular shot. Too much recoil, too large of COF, just not worthwhile.
Called it. I am being ignored again by those that do not want to read real data. I'll say it again. ALL NC MAX weapons but Mattocks start to loose damage at 5m (134*6) and go limp at 18m (Hacksaw 50*6, Scatter and Grinder 60*6). Mattocks start loosing the already low damage (112*6) at 8m and go limp at 28m (90*6). We can NOT do the 10,000 damage needed for a stock MAX kill in a single mag no matter the range but for dual Grinders. Single mag damage Hacksaw - (134*6) * 6 = 4,824. Dual is 9,648 Sactter - Same as Hacksaw Grinder - (134*6) * 8 = 6,432. Dual is 12,864 Mattock - (112*6) *6 = 4,032. Dual is 8,064 That is at under 5m and if you have a 100% hit rate! (up to 8m for Mattocks) NO FIGHTS HAPPEN AT 5M AND NO ONE HAS A 100% HIT RATE. 5m is melee range, you do not get within melee range of the enemy unless YOU CHOOSE TO. I fight off TR and VS shotgun users all damn day and live a good chunk of the time as a Gauss rifle medic. How, you may ask? I do not choose to grab them by the belt, that's how. I keep my ******* distance and be the most squirmy little bastard you will ever see. You want to see what TR and VS MAXes have to work with range and damage? http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/MAX_Anti-Infantry Everything is in that link. To lazy to click? Let me post it. TR MAX AI weapons. Heavy Cycler 143 @ 0m, 125 @65m Onslaught 125 @10m, 100 @50m Mutilator 143 @10m, 125 @65m Mercy 125 @ any range VS MAX AI weapons. Quasar 167 @10m, 143 @75m Nebula 143 @10m, 112 @50m Cosmos 167 @10m, 143 @75m Blueshift 143 @10m, 10 @75m (is this right? I have 2 stat pages saying conflicting numbers) To lazy to read? Well, **** me for trying show some light on and teach what some would call an *******. Im starting to understand why Cupboy rage quit his google docs stats. This isn't worth the effort when you're ignored by those that have and make baseless claims. At least give me a touch of credit for giving real proof by both raw stats and real in game testing Venomoroth. This **** doesn't come fast you know.
It's either slugs or nothing. I find crouching helps the COF but no matter what it's a dice roll. For every 2-3 shots where both slugs end up at opposite ends of your reticle, you get one where one is a body shot and one is a headshot at hilarious range. It's no chaingun but it's worthwhile. I wish there was hard data on slug damage and damage dropoff. I know the dual mattock slugs FEEL like they do more damage at range than other slugs, but feelings don't come into it. If all slugs are equal, then for 90% of engagements slug grinders would be the CLEAR choice. edit - I should say that I've so far logged 750 kills with my dual slug exmag Mattocks, so I've got a good idea of how they operate. They're basically the NC's magrider. Made durable by sensible position and movement, and lethal with cowardly hit and run tactics. Only charge around like Rambo if you are in a zerg, as your weapons have zero staying power.
I don't think anyone suggest they are "useless". However TR and VS MAXs do more DPS outside ~8m (without including Lockdown or ZOE - with them it can be as short as 2m), that's just a FACT. Now there are a lot of people suggesting NC AI MAXs are GREAT at 20m or even 30m. When even a crouched slug using dual Mattock user is reaching the limit of viable DPS at that point (barring luck combos) and is way, way, waaaaaaaaaaaaay behind any TR or VS AI weapon combo.
That's the same for all factions though. I really can't see why anyone would choose any AI Max over HA for instance, for anything over 30 yards tops. Admittedly TR and VS maxes have the advantage over about 15 yards or so, but under that NC maxes rule supreme - I don't have a problem with that trade-off at all! I was happily gunning down infantry at 20 yards yesterday with my standard scatmax - okay only 1 per reload, but that's not bad at all for weapons which totally dominate in cqc! I honestly think talk of NC maxes being UP in some way is disingenuous to say the least. I play TR and NC equally, and there are some NC weapons I'd happily swap with other factions, but Maxes aren't one of them!
On the contrary - there are very many posts claiming exactly that. That's the only thing I take issue with tbh. I wouldn't argue that NC maxes are as good as TR and VS at range, but they aren't anywhere near as bad as ppl try to make out, and in any case why should they be great at range - they murder at close range! I wouldn't mind a change to the Mattock making it equal at all ranges to the Mercy for instance, but then why shouldn't TR get an option equal to scat/hack-maxes at closer ranges, for instance? Onslaughts don't come close to the bog-standard scattercannon, and they are definitely the best close range option for TR, and close(ish) range is what matters most for a Max, as the game stands now.
The reason why NC max AI weapons still statistically rule are because statistically most ppl are idiots. I love a good fight when ppl use their brain, cover, know where and when to move and dont always run with the fastest bullethose they can get their hands on. But majority of ppl are derps that think that a good firefight equals sprint, sprint, sprint to everything to hugging distance because they cant control recoil and hit anything. And sprint up next to NC max.. yeah bad idea, 6 heavy shotguns point blank should launch you to orbit if you for some reason dont turn into red mist TLDR; Large quantities of derps that consider the "headless chicken tactic" = sprint-hug-hipfire a good CQC tactic make NC MAX look good in the stats, otherwise the AI weapons are meh.
Show me one? None state that they magically stop doing damage past 10m. Many state (quite rightly) that they do less DPS than TR and VS ones past 10m. Many also state (again quite rightly) that both DPS tails off, and TTK rises, very quickly past 10m (more like 5m vs infantry). There are however plenty of people suggesting that NC AI MAXs are great out to 20m or even 30m which is utter, utter, utter nonsense, even Mattocks with slugs are much reduced (and worse than any TR or VS AI combo) by 30m (TTK-wise and DPS-wise). NC AI weapons are great 0-5m and very nice 5-10m, but past that their effectiveness tails off very quickly, that's not to say they are "useless", but they are very much worse than other options. Most people are vastly off with ranges in PS2, this is 15m range:
There are many posts stating that NC Maxes are 'useless' (which is what you denied - nothing to do with 'magically stop doing damage' etc) - read through all the threads yourself and you can't fail to spot them. It's those claims that are utter, utter nonsense. Being an NC and TR Max user myself, I stand by my comments that they are in fact better than some ppl try to make out beyond 5 & 10m, and up to at least 20m (yes, I do know how far that is, thanks). I did say they are not as good as TR/VS further out - but theirs aren't near as good within 10m. Damage stats are all well and good, but hitting targets at 30m isn't that easy for any Max, so all AI max effectiveness is reduced at longer ranges. A slightly better longer range option than the Mattock would be nice to have, but would need to be 'balanced' at close range to go along with that. But as they stand they fit the supposed NC faction trait, and given that point, actually being able to use slugs at all is a pretty nice option to have. We can argue the finer points all day, but NC Maxes are most definitely NOT useless, and are actually the best at doing what Maxes are best used for in general - close(ish) range combat. Give them more range and they would back to being OP.
Scattmax op calls is so beta, heck the hackmax is so last month. Zoemax is the latest fashion trend in our max tears summer collection.
You know Im starting to think that my ranged DPS numbers for Mercy and Hacksaw is still wrong. I accounted for all damage being sent down range and not taking out the misses. Does this sound right to you guys? Just using the Mercy 20m stats for now so I don't have to deal with the Hacksaw damage drop and the fact that in the Mercy 20m test there was 20+ misses while the 0m and 10m did not. 80 125 damage shots = 10,000 damage and tests 0m took 80 shots and 10m had less thanks to headshots more than countering the effects of misses. To recap here's the Mercy 20m test numbers 20m - 107 bullets 107 / 14.2 = 7.53 + 3(reload) = 10.53 second kill time 107 * 125 = 13,375 damage 13,375 / 10.53 = 1270.18 sustained DPS for 10.53 seconds Ignoring reload time for now it took 107 shots to kill a MAX at 20m and those shots took 7.53 seconds to fire. Well 27 of those shots seem to be misses thanks to the Mercy not having any damage drop with range, BUT headshots also **** with the numbers. Should I use the number of shots to = kill damage (80) with the fire time of all 107 seeing how 27 shots and 3,000 damage never landed on target? That math I think would look like this. 10,000 / 7.53 = 1328.02 Add in the reload time and I get this 10,000 / 10.53 = 949.66 Im not certain of this math being right but I "think" that 949.66 is the real DPS of the Mercy at 20m under perfect conditions for a MAX sized target. If this is right the the Hacksaw DPS at 20m would look like so. (using 20m to be fair range wise) Old stats 20m - 78 shells 78 / 6.96 = 11.2 + (4*6)(reloads) = 35.2 second kill time 78 * (50*6) = 23,400 damage 23,400 / 35.2 = 664.77 sustained DPS for 11.2 seconds with 24 seconds of zero damage At 50*6 (300) damage at 20m it takes 33.33 shells to kill with 100% pellet hits. So that's a total misses of 44.67 shells. The math would look like 10,000 / 11.2 = 982.85 (without reloads) 10,000 / 35.2 = 284.09 (with reload times) If this is right then a dual Mercy MAX would have a perfect effective DPS at 20m of 946.66. A dual Hacksaw MAX in the same conditions would be about 284.09 effective DPS. Against infantry Id have to redo most of the match thanks to the number of misses being changed from a smaller target so the DSP numbers for infantry would be even less than for a MAX sized target. Then there's the lower HP of an Infantry making this near impossible to assume for without doing all the maths and tests again. Im also not even do ANYTHING for armors. Kinetic armor adds 1.5% every level I think. So level 5 is 7.5% and makes the total armor 87.5% With 20% of small arms damage for stock and only 12.5 with level 5 kinetic that's about 37.5 less damage on target making the effective 10,000 HP of a MAX 13,750 HP. Does this (or should it) have anything to do with DPS? I don't ******* know! It would take longer to kill, I know that much at least. MATH- It gets ******* HARD when you want the details.
As a vanu i don't find Scatter max op, just gotta keep em at range Am happy though that SOE looks at numbers in their stats, rather than people whining on the forums (something more developers should do)
Again show me a post where someone says they are "useless" outside 10m. They are a lot weaker past 10m at their damage drop off is steep - this is a fact. They are a lot weaker than TR or VS MAXs past 8m - this a fact. By 20m never mind the 30m (twice the distance in that video) people are claiming they are massively down in DPS and massively up in TTK to any VS or TR AI weapon combo, and even more so if Lockdown or ZOE are used. Where as TR and VS using Lockdown or VS with their lowest TTK weapon are almost as good as any NC AI weapon at 0m and still carry that killing power out to range.
Same with ZOE and smokegrenades. Make them visible when everyone is not visible. Or make them unable to use ZOE, storm it and try to put some C4 under their "rear". But no... people make the devs do the work for them. But hey good that the NC-ShotgunMaxes cant suffer something similar right? Since they are closerange and not longrange in any case.
http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/ai_max/all/overall The NC maxes have by far the best stats of any max weapon.
Oh, look at this, you found another Thread you can spout your ignorant crap on. NEWSFLASH: This side tracked the stats from before the NC MAX nerf, this stats are faulty, wake the frak up. Even Highby said that VS had the best KDR before ZOE and now it just got better because every fight against the VS is instantly ended by 3 classes, Medic, Engineer and guess what VS MAXes en masse. Get our bloke head out of your bloke *** And yes, i might get banned for swearing at you, but it probably was worth it.
The VS have the best KD because of the players, we have MUCH fewer players than NC (which out populates us sometimes 3-1) and most of those players have a KD of atleast .9-1. Also SHOW ME, show me some other stats that you have until you can prove me wrong, my evidence is the only evidence.
