On the Subject of PTS NC MAXes

Obviously all factions Max crash. All Maxes are terrible for the game. But you have to admit NC takes it to a whole different level.

I never said they are the only ones. They are just much, much better at it.

No, you don't need to go on. Cause all of that is easily outmatched by other factions in most common in game situations. Be it by vanguard shield(in case of prowler and magrider), be it by about any weapon with in the hand of an experienced player(in case of lasher). This is a game about point capture and defense...not long range fights That's why a vanguard is better than a magrider and an NC MAX beats a blueshift where it matters. You just can't take a point from distance. NEVER. NOWHERE. Not even those in the open. The final battle is always on point(okay, or it ends up in spawnroom camping...but that is farming and has nothing to do with a thrilling gameplay).

But you HAVE TO fight a smart NC in CQC...cause he will not be that stupid to run into the open to let you shoot him. He is on point. You need to get in there. Nothing you can do about that. His game.

Flanking attacks make the shield useless? Grats...ANYTHING makes the ZOE useless(cause it is utterly useless). That enemies actually need to execute a coordinated attack while you can shoot your enemy just straight in the face without of having to worry about anything is a HUGE advantage for NC. 2 heavies...2 doorways...attacking simulatinously...well..how often does that happen? We are talking about planetside 2...not high ranked counterstrike. Let's make this still unrealistic but at least a bit realistic: 2 heavies encounter an NC MAX from 2 different doorways. Both need to switch to their rocket launcher. No.1 is insta killed....no.2 manages to shoot one rocket and dies in reload(if he is slow he might actually die before even shooting). Same situation for VS MAX...Heavy no.1 can shoot his rocket(cause VS MAX can't instakill him)...heavy no.2 can shoot his rocket....and no.2 can likely even reload and shoot a second time. Even with perfect headshot aim and slow heavies the VS MAX would eat at least one rocket but most likely die.
I'm currently doing my 5th shotty auraxium...and I can tell you: Even without a shield there are very few situation where you are really forced to fight in the open and long range. With shield there are none.

No, those that complain about Betelgeuse have at least some stats to back it up. Those stats are old(betelgeuse has been nerfed twice I think) and severely screwed cause only very experienced players can use that gun(due to the way it is gated) so that obviously increases the KPD above normal levels. But they at least have some kind of stats. NC MAX defenders have nothing. They just spill "but it has no range"(which is not only wrong but does not matter on top of it. C4 never had any range at all...still it was nerfed due to OP in CQC)...and that's it. And people actually did buy into it for years although the stats showed clearly that the NC MAX is outperforming the others...

I would really like to see those stats, I have heard people from both sides saying that the stats back them up. Who is right?

NC on live are absolutely the best at max v max CQC,
and if they simply remove slugs NC would also be terrible at range (which i'd be fine with, range isn't their domain.)
if we ignore slugs, NC have amazing CQC power but no sustained fire, long reloads and no range, that seems balanced to me.

what isn't balanced is the godawful PTS changes where they STILL have no range, STILL have no sustained fire,
but are now also outgunned in a CQC max fight by EVERY tr and vs weapon, that is complete BS.

Devs swinging nerf hammer recklessly...

I'm all for tweaking sore spots, but let's not destroy what little faction assymmetry PS2 has left.

Also, I overwhelming play TR so 99% of my interactions with NC Max have been on receiving end.

Voidwell is a good place to compare game data on weapons.. For example, KPU (basically kills per life).. https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,7525&startDate=2018-07-17&endDate=2018-11-01

As with anything. There have been sources posted. You can also check them out yourself in the PTS.

If they just would remove slugs then NC would still be the best at where it matters. They still would have the shield to close distance and go CQC...they do not need slugs for medium range there. And it's not like dual shotgun does no damage at all at medium range either.
If you take slugs AND shield they MIGHT be balanced. Still they would be hell to deal with on point and possibly still outperform the others that just can't instagib C4-fairies and rocketlauncher-heavies.
All you want is a small nerf to a massively OP thing so it is a bit less op. That just ain't enough.

Gorgons FTW.

so the shotgun max with bad range (if we remove slugs) and no sustained fire is superior in cqc, do you think it shouldn't be?
do you want the weapons WITH superior range and vastly superior sustained fire to also be better at cqc?
(because that is how it is on PTS)


on live what TR and VS get is the ability to kill FAST, not instantly but still FAST,
and they also have a loooooot of sustained fire,
Cosmos for example can keep shooting for OVER twenty seconds
and if we remove slugs they also have vastly superior range to go along with
their vastly superior damage per mag and sustained fire.
literally the only thing NC will have better if we simply remove slugs is CQC damage, and that is how it should be.

let us have lame range, let us have zero sustained fire, let us have bad accuracy and tiny ammo supplies
aslong as the shotgun max remains the superior cqc max.
these PTS changes are a joke, making every NC max shotgun outgunned in a CQC max fight by every TR and VS max gun.
that is the opposite of balance, that is bias.

That is what you claim. I wait till we have it on live. As far as I can see it NC MAX can kill instakill and they still hvae the shield to close gaps(I feel so sorry if they finally gonna have to utilize them propperly instead of just having them on top of all the imba shotguns at any range).

I just bought cosmos on live servers and the buff better be huge cause that thing is ridiculous. Almost no damage output and hitting something that is not basicly kissing your gun is a lottery. I mean, I don't think blueshifts are good for sustained fire(and shooting in bursts just decreases the TTK by a lot...but that is never accounted for in those TTK statistics NC spread around to prove that other empires have better guns. They rather talk about reload times of shotguns if they miss 5 shots or after they killed 3 people. Something VS Maxes can only dream about.) but cosmos are a whole different level of crap. I guess it will end up like a lasher without aoe...it's only scary for people that don't ignore it and shoot a rocket right in your face cause you told them where you are standing by shooting and you don't do enough damage to kill them before they are back behind cover. Anyone who is not NC knows that situation.

Again, your "ONLY CQC" is ALL that matters. I do not care if I can kill 5 C4 fairies with a huge magazine...if I can't even stop the first one before it detonates the C4. That is the point. If you die you can't shoot. If you can kill your enemy before he can shoot he can't do ANY damage....so you survive and can kill the next...and the next...and then you got to reload and may get killed if you are too stupid to back off and/or use your shield.

its not a claim, its the stats,

the only SG that can "insta kill" infantry on PTS is scattercannon and only if all pellets from both arms hit the target,
it saw a damage nerf, a pellet count nerf and a rof nerf to 30RPM...(500ms refire time.)
you'd need to be very lucky to get those oneshots.

then we have Hacksaw "the high dps" option for NC, with a longer infantry TTK in CQC than Mercy...
(TR's low damage long range option)

Mattocks (NCs "long range" option) come in 2nd to last of all factions Max AI weapons in cqc for killing infantry,
mattocks also take over 3 x longer to kill infantry at medium range (20m) than the other factions "long range" weapons,
with a TTK of 1,665ms (if all pellets hit.) compared to TR Mercies with a TTK of 564ms and VS Blueshifts with a TTK of 656ms.

the only worse CQC max AI weapon of any faction being...
...
Grinders the "large mag" option (meaning 5 second sustain fire, woo!), with a 1 second TTK,
almost double the infantry TTK in CQC of Cosmos (the "large mag" VS option), and with less than -400% of the sustained fire.

and in cqc max vs max fights, EVERY nc max shotgun is behind EVERY TR and VS max weapon.

on PTS the shotgun max is outgunned in CQC.
its not a claim its simple stats.

and you think all pellets are gonna be hitting? we use perfect condition stats because they are unbias,
i will NEVER get all pellets from hacksaws hitting the target, and yet even if i did they would still be worse than Mercies in CQC.
also you understand that a missed shot with a low RPM weapon is vastly more punishing right?
these perfect condition TTKs vastly favour your bullet hoses,
because they pretend that every pellet from a 30rpm shotgun is hitting the target.
the higher the percentage of missed shots that you calculate for
the worse and worse the low RPM weapons get by comparison to bullethoses.

and that is an issue about C4.
it is the reason Flak is mandatory and not worth being called an "option",
being NC isn't magical c4 immunity, miss a shot or if enough pellet RNGesus doesn't bless you,
you're just as dead as TR and VS, i've also killed plenty of wouldbe-c4 fairies with my tr and vs maxes,

and the shield...i'm hoping to make a compilation of that thing at some point
but it seems to have an "arming time" longer than that of c4.
dont get me wrong, shield is awesome for covering reloads and stuff, but used re-actively to a c4 throw it usually fails.
so NC maxes must run flak to counter OP C4, just like everyone else.

so yeah c4 is an issue that needs to be resolved for everyone.

Now what kind of TTK are we talking of? All headshots for everything but NC MAXes? And no, if you miss a bullet with TR and VS you do no damage at all...if you miss a pellet with NC there are still plenty more to do damage with. Missing an entire shot with NC means really, really bad aim.

Again, you claimed that NC MAX is not better/actually worse) than the others based on similar numbers. Then we had the live stats that have shown how wrong you are and how much more value the instagib and CQC fighting abilities+shield(that often ain't even utilized to full potential cause it ain't needed right now...that's how imba NC MAX is) of NC have. You can now come up with new theorethical numbers and ignore the actual gameplay again...but I prefer to wait till we see the numbers in game before I buy into your word another time.
If you are right then NC gonna have to deal with an underpowered MAX for some time(you know, that's the situation the other factions faced for years). If we do not stick to the changes and you are wrong(again!) then the NC MAX ends up as still overpowered and the other factions are in for another couple of weeks/months of disadvantage. Which one sounds fairer taking the last couple of years into account? Exactly...

Having the only Max rendered incapable of sustained fire, and use outside of tailored-fit situations (such as getting into said situations, IE going from the Outside , across paths, into the enclosed area's, for example)
Gave the NC, the most situational max; That did the best in said tailored-fit area, at the expense of:

• No sustained fire
• No practical range
• Limited magazines
• Long reload times

To their advantage they had:

• Close-Quarters best-in-class Damage output
• A Directional-Shield, to allow them some manner of closing the gap inherent to wielding only close-range weapons

Now, if for the PTS:

• No Sustained Fire
• Incredibly Limited Range
• No ability to reduce-RNG issues or extend range slightly (Slugs)
• Limited Magazines
• Long reload times
• Average to Lowest Damage-Output in CQC, past select model

Advantage:

• Directional Shield, to allow them some manner of closing the gap

The VS & TR, can use their max in any situation or location.
Leaving an enclosed space, or being engaged across a hallway, does not basically disarm them.
VS & TR, are also capable of suppressing & damaging their targets while closing the gap between them & their target(s)
They have short reload-times, rendering them rarely incapable of returning fire by lack of ammo.
They have typically crap abilities however.

Given, outside their Abilities, VS & TR have a reliable performance, with NC performing better only in CQC in particular environments..
NC diving below their performance in CQC, while not having any performance outside it, means NC goes from Top-Performing in 1 field, to negligible performance across all situations.

It would be akin to taking the Prowler's DPS, seeing it as an Issue, and making it sacrifice all other stats, while still making it lose in the DPS race.

NC's AI Maxes, are situational shotguns.
They perform like devils in specific situations, outside of it, they are abysmal.
Now, with this PTS, Inside their specific situations, where their entire performance was viable, they are now out-performed by universal-weapons that achieve identical results across all situations, inside the NC's singular situational set.

IE, the weapon has nothing going for it, that the other two don't match, while being outmatched across in all other fields already.

No, all bodyshots for all factions.
If we throw in headshot then TR and VS outgun the shotgun max in cqc even more,
since NC have a 1.5x HS multiplier compared to 2x for VS and TR.

So no, hacksaws are simply outDamaged in CQC by low damage long range max weapons like mercies even before we even bother looking at their superior headshot multiplier.

I've no idea why you think that would need to go live before we can see that it is completely out of whack.

The "highest DPS shotgun" out damaged in cqc by TRs low damage long range option.

And I didn't see why you had to have NC MAX rule the battlefield for YEARS and STILL denied that it is happening. See what I did there?
You were wrong, I was right. And I'm more willing to check if I'm on a streak than letting you fool people again with some theorethical stuff that has nothing to do with in game gameplay.

Same counts for the post by LordKrelas by the way. I have almost 5 shotguns(normal infantry shotguns...no dual wields with shield and heavy armor. By your line of argument it should basicly be impossible for me to ever kill anything with that.) on auraxium. If you tell me that I'm disarmed on long range then all I reply to that is: "So what? I make my kills anyway when and where it matters.". This is reality. Yes, it is situational but it's the most common situation that you can basicly force at will cause there is a darn lot of cover(and you are actually carrying your cover with you!!!) in this game where fights usually take place.

Lol, it took you that long to realise the guy is an ignorant ****** Demigan? You must be getting old

Ofcourse not, but Liewec seemed to be doing fine. But this kind of blatant hypocricy seemed to be a good time to call him out on it while he was tripping on his "but I've always been right and not going to believe anyhing else" rant.

Indeed. It's during encounters like this that I'm surprised it took the word 'bigot' so long to gain its modern popularity. Heaven forbid anyone disagree with what someone else says on a forums lol

Oh, there is Demigan...no.3 of the pack that claimed that NC MAX is not imba no matter what. You dare to call me a hypocrit? YOU??? Rofl.

Oh no, YOU are the ones that try to abuse the stats. You did so for several years until the sh** hit the fan and even you couldn't deny the live stats(the only stats that matter) anymore. Well, Demigan actually still does, I think. I say: Stick to the live stats...I've said that all the way. No change at all on my end there. And you keep the: "Let's do some theoretical math and that's how it will be"-game that obviosuly failed for the whole last couple of years...but this time it will likely work out right. Sorry that I don't want to keep fingers crossed there.

Pistols got the stats cause you don't use them as face to face main weapon. You finish up with them(and just pull it for that) and stalkers use them from behind. You do neither of both with shotguns. You know that...but you love to twist and turn statistics. Same as with the betelgeuse being superior although the better stats are mostly because only players with more than 5k kills in that weapon category(and more than 1k kills with the very same gun with a different name...called orion) and with that class can use them(which has to result in a better KPD). You hope that people are too stupid to notice that all your arguments are fake...

Shotguns are not used more because unlike MAXes infantry is not only used in CQC. If I play other infantry like a MAX then a shotgun is a great weapon and used quite a lot. If I want to go for longer ranges(or I do not know what situation I will be in for) I neither pull ANY MAX(which would be an expensive waste) nor a shotgun, a pistol, a lasher, a knife, a smg etc..
It's not like ANY MAX is used on long ranges...they are too slow for that, too big of a target and the weapons are not accurate enough(no, not even the blueshift which is likely the best of all there). They are plain bad at that...ALL of them.
On Top of that shotguns are not for beginners(spray and pray does not work with them) and for most classes not stock. If you can't male a shotgun work as an experienced players and abuse the hell out of them then sorry...you may be experienced but definitely not good.