On the Subject of PTS NC MAXes

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Campagne, Feb 2, 2019.

  1. Campagne

    The NC MAX has received some fairly considerable changes on the PTS, and I'd like to see a bit of feedback on them and how the changes will impact balance and gameplay.

    The changes: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/jan-31-2019-pts-update-max-changes.251230/

    I really like these changes overall. Large CoFs are not very fun in my opinion, and heavily lend themselves to accidental friendly fire and totally-RNG-based misses. Slugs helped a bit with this mostly removing the risk of friendly fire, but only did so much for RNG and range. Whatever changes may follow to live, this is the right place to start.

    The only exception I have to this list are the reloads, which while no more long reloads is nice nerfing short reloads doesn't help. They're already too long.

    Additionally, rather than nerfs to extended magazines the attachment should just be automatically incorporated into all MAX weapons where applicable. If there is only a single universally beneficial attachment there is no reason to ever not have it. It might as well be default at that point, and MAXes are already very cert-intensive.

    This is largely a flat nerf. We'll continue to see this trend rest assured.

    Out to 8m with 5 pellets and a new maximum damage per pellet of 125 damage, the new maximum damage per shot is 625 damage per arm to a total of 1250 damage if both arms are fired simultaneously and all pellets hit. Assuming nanoweave is able to protect against MAX shotguns, even with an auxiliary shield perfect accuracy will still "OHK."

    At 20m the minimum damage if all pellets hit is 175 damage per arm with a total damage of 350 for both arms. Laughable.

    It will do this lower damage significantly slower than the current live MAX can due to the RoF reduction. The new maximum magazine size will be 8 shells and the fastest reload will be ever so slightly longer than current while being 0.8 seconds faster when empty. This is the only instance where I would consider this increase and respective decrease "good."

    Out to 15m with 3 pellets and a maximum damage per pellet of 100 damage, the new maximum damage per shot is 300 damage per arm to a total of 600 damage if both arms are fired simultaneously and all pellets hit. Assuming nanoweave is able to protect against MAX shotguns, there will be no effect in total theoretical shots to kill. However, an auxiliary shield will increase the shots to kill by 1 to a total of 5 shells if all pellets hit.

    Terrible already, just wait for the minimum; At 20m the minimum damage if all pellets hit is 105 damage per arm with a total damage of 210 for both arms. Do note this is worse than the Scatter cannons despite being the supposed "mid range niche" arm. This gives the Mattock a strange window of use between very roughly 10-13 meters. At least the RoF wasn't nerf'd...

    The new maximum magazine size will be 10 shells and the fastest reload will be 0.25s longer than current while being 0.55 seconds faster when empty.

    Out to 8m with 5 pellets and a new maximum damage per pellet of 75 damage, the new maximum damage per shot is 375 damage per arm to a total of 750 damage if both arms are fired simultaneously and all pellets hit. Assuming nanoweave is able to protect against MAX shotguns, the shots to kill will increase from 3 shells to 4 if all pellets hit.

    At 15m the minimum damage if all pellets hit is 125 damage per arm with a total damage of 250 for both arms.

    The new maximum magazine size will be 10 shells and the fastest reload will be 0.3s longer than current while being 0.5 seconds faster when empty.

    Out to 8m with the same number of pellets at 6 and a new maximum damage per pellet of 50 damage, the new maximum damage per shot is 300 damage per arm to a total of 600 damage if both arms are fired simultaneously and all pellets hit. Assuming nanoweave is able to protect against MAX shotguns, there will be no effect in total theoretical shots to kill. However, once again an auxiliary shield will increase the shots to kill by 1 to a total of 5 shells if all pellets hit.

    At 20m the minimum damage if all pellets hit is 120 damage per arm with a total damage of 240 for both arms.

    Like the Scattercannon it now suffers an even lower RoF.

    The new maximum magazine size will be 16 shells and the fastest reload will be 0.6s longer than current while being 0.3 seconds faster when empty. Note these reload values have only gotten worse as the list progressed.

    A "slow" and "chunky" weapon does not make for a good suppression weapon, in fact it makes for a rather bad suppression weapon. Give it low damage per shot and a long reload and you get a non-suppressive weapon.

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    Ultimately I feel these changes just make the questionably-high/low powered NC MAX flat out weak and uncompetitive. Following these changes not only would the NC MAX be objectively the worst all all ranges past the respective maximum damage ranges, but it will also lose it's marginal TTK advantage, require higher accuracy than before and greater punishment for missed shots and partial hits, suffer greater down times, and maintain a reduced killing potential across the board.

    I think I'd almost call it "underpowered."

    At this point, I personally would accept these shotgun changes if and only if all three factions had access to both these shotguns and proper machine guns. I know that won't happen. At most, it allows the user to use two different types of shotgun arms without really suffering greatly.

    I greatly disapprove of these changes.
    • Up x 4
  2. Liewec123

    they've gone from being strictly CQC weapons (due to the cof) with the damage you'd expect to get from a strictly cqc weapon,
    to weapons with no more stopping power than TR or VS and similar range yet with drastically less sustained fire and HILARIOUSLY inadequate ammo supply.

    compare grinders to cosmos.
    cosmos have recieved the hitbox hack projectiles of unstable ammunition,
    they kill faster than grinders,
    they have far greater range due to the hitbox hack projectiles,
    they can sustain fire for TWENTY SECONDS and have enough ammo supply to fire for almost two damn minutes...
    (without a single resupply tick from an engie/ammo printer etc)

    terrible changes, they took a cqc powerhouse weapon and gave it damage and range "similar" to the others
    but with a fraction of the sustain, while also raising cosmos up to hilariously OP levels.
    that isn't balance, it is bias.


    but all of the idiots who make the weekly "nerf nc max!!111!" threads
    will be happy with how terrible the changes are.
    (unless they're TR, in which case i can't wait to see them deal with Cosmos.)
    • Up x 5
  3. Zanaffar

    Lelelelelel and so it begins. Delicious NC tears. Expected this yesterday tbh :)
    • Up x 2
  4. Demigan

    I first thought "just about halved the damage? I assume they've removed or reduced the weakness at range then".

    Aside from better accuracy, the damage at the minimum damage range has also been halved (besides the lowered amount of pellets many got).

    A rebalance would have been fine, but this is closer to deleting the NC MAX than rebalancing it. Upgrade it's ranged capabilities with a higher minimum damage instead of lower and increase the chance of the MAX actually being able to do something at that range (lowered pellet spread) and this looks a lot better.
    • Up x 2
  5. adamts01

    About ******* time.
    • Up x 3
  6. Inogine

    Whew. They hit the NC max in the face with the nerf bat... Then kept beating it while it was on the ground...

    I for one see an anti-max movement happening all over with people wishing maxes would just go away... but they're kinda heavy armored high firepower things... that die to a single C4 toss from one guy... Or get run over easily... Or die in one or two rocket hits... How times have changed.

    That said, only ever feared NC maxes indoors in close proximity. If they were outside, laughter was to be had. Never been "range deleted" by a NC max that I can remember when I was foot pounding. That said, welcome to having no real effective role for the cost like the TR max. We expect that the Vanu might join us when the devs finally abandon the game and their bias with it.

    Liewec123, we already do.
    • Up x 1
  7. pnkdth

    Improving COF and removing slugs. That's some epic trolling right there, DGB. There goes my main setup with the Grinder and slugs too. FML.

    For these changes to make sense, the MAX units of the other factions should be revised as well.
    • Up x 2
  8. HomicideJack

    MAX suits for the TR and NC were already barely usable, but the VS bias is really showing there. Buff cosmos, nerf the already laughable NC MAX? I don't get it. The only niche left for the NC MAX at this point is AV, and maybe using Gorgons + shield.
  9. Commander Tychus

    Is this an out of season April Fools joke?
    • Up x 3
  10. Inogine

    I won't say the NC max was laughable before. It had a concrete role. Indoor house keeping. Better than the VS and TR did. Looks like VS is getting the super buff this time around though while they whack the NC menace to death with the nerf bat though. Gonna actually fire up the PTS to see these changes first hand, which I've usually abstained from bothering with. Those stats look pretty bad and it looks lopsidedly VS flavored now.

    "Without wanting to change the weapon too much." Oh I'm sure you didn't want to change it much Wrel. All about tweaking those VS weapons though.
    • Up x 2
  11. pnkdth

    That's a creative way of looking at it. The unstable ammo of the Cosmos is going to have a 1.2x HS modifier. So worse potential DPS, longer reloads, yay? No reason for anyone to use it over the Blueshifts. The Quasar is still a less accurate Blueshift with 10 more shots per mag. Makes it a wee bit more viable but not what I'd call "super buff." TL;DR: Imma stick to the Blueshifts.
    • Up x 1
  12. Inogine

    Super buff is going a bit far. But now I'd say there are usable weapons on the VS side more than the other sides now have. The NC maxes are left in a weird place now. I've had about the same effectiveness with regular shotguns on targets thus far. Need to get a buddy to boot up the PTS with me and have a few goes.

    That range drop off on the NC maxes leaves them rather particularly in trouble. TR maxes don't fair much better, but I'd say they're gonna be even worse off. VS continue to get more usable stuff and that heavy cycler "buff" didn't do much to make me wanna use it over either the Mercy or Mutilator still. It's still inferior. It's not anywhere near as accurate as the mercy to even be considered for 10 extra bullets which will likely miss at ranges it'd be more effective at. Mercy also fires faster. Nor does it have the capacity of the mutilator.... doesn't reload much better than the mutilator... Somewhat better than the mercy but that accuracy is oof.

    The two buffed guns from the Vanu feel like using the Mercy at this point, and they were underused before? Man, give me some of that. Doesn't matter what the damage is if you can't hit your target though. Easier time hitting targets at range might just be the trick to sneak it in as an easier to use gun.
  13. pnkdth


    Yes, the change to the NC makes little sense to me. The removal of slugs kinda pisses me off given it was my main playstyle with the NC MAX.

    One interesting effect we might see of the Cosmos is if it actually works well in practice is it could be a path worth taking for all VS MAX units, forcing sustained accuracy over raw DPS and DAKKA which could be taken over by TR. With complete asymmetry between the factions, forumside would also be a lot more entertaining where everyone would fall over each other to explain why the other faction is OP.
  14. Liewec123

    If they'd done this massive damage nerf but doubled magazines and ammo supply then fine,
    But no, you get damage and range similar to the other maxes but with a fraction of the sustained fire and ammo.
    The balance we'd expect from a certain VS dev.

    I'll repeat from my earlier comment, the hilariously OP Cosmos with extended mags can fire for over TWENTY SECONDS before needing to reload, and have nearly two minutes of constant fire before needing a resupply.
    Nc can sustain fire for what? 5 seconds? and run dry after 4 volleys...
    Similar damage, a fraction of the sustain and ammo supply.

    TLDR
    If they want to submit to the constant whiners about NC max and nerf the damage then ok, I don't agree, but ok,
    But if you half the damage then you should double the magazine and ammo supply.

    Hop on to PTS and give extended mags cosmos a try, hold down the triggers and mow down dummies in a fraction of a second for a very very very long time with shockingly good range thanks to hit box hack ammo.
    • Up x 3
  15. Demigan

    MAX weapons aren't designed for headshot-oriented gameplay because of the starting COF. Having larger bullets extends their effective range and increases their average DPS on any range. While hipfire starting COF is similar across most weapons to that of MAX weapons, the ADS starting COF is often only 10% of the hipfire size. On top of that the most OP weapons for the general public have almost exclusively been ease-of-use oriented weapons that require little accuracy to be effective.

    Unstable ammo Cosmos is going to be the best ranged weapon for any MAX, with dependable DPS, absolutely stunning ease-of-use due to it's accuracy, large magazines and low downtime.
    • Up x 3
  16. Kristan

    I think the Nerfhammer was swung a bit too hard, except for Scattercannon. Halving the damage just to add a bit more mag size and accuracy? That's not what we asked for.

    Also hooray for slightly buffed Heavy Cycler!
  17. csvfr

    Pretty salty move from the devs this one. Also Mattock (the long-range option) @ 20m deals 105 damage if all 3 pellets hit. So in a standard magazine it can't even kill an infantry target.
    • Up x 5
  18. Zanaffar

    This is like best thing ever. 3 bad NC riders of appocalypse still trying to convince someone that poor NC max got unfair nerf and that devs are even biased against NC lol. Sure they are when they doesnt touched this much broken thing in more than 6 years.
    Less tears and enjoy ZOE treatement. :)
  19. pnkdth


    Blueshifts/Mercies definitely are. Not going for headshots with those weapons is a mistake and you might as well opt for the other options with a higher rate of fire. It is still advisable to keep your aim at the high chest/neck area to net as many HS as you can.

    I'm always cautious when making judgment calls in VR. Stationary targets/not returning fire/knowing exactly where they greatly affect performance. Even the most crappy weapons feel pretty good in VR. I'm a semi-auto sniper god in VR, for instance, effortlessly to double-tapping myself to a massacre of dummies. Hell, even the Lasher feels like it might just be able to go toe-to-toe with infantry.

    The issue most pressing, IMO, is just how poorly this new iteration the NC MAX stands against VS/TR. With the changes the NC MAX will, quite literally, have no range. Also, I'm still salty as f*** over the potential loss of slugs.
  20. Twin Suns

    I only use my NC Max indoors, on point defense anyway.

    Even with DBG's new Walleye Vision™ Update for the NC Max.

    I'll still kill these pathetic, bottom feeders. And they will still complain.

    *Max Punch*
    • Up x 1

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