On the Subject of PTS NC MAXes

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Campagne, Feb 2, 2019.

  1. CaptCran

    For sure about time! 95% of the battles for the point are cQc. And the delay on the C-4 to counter NC MAX made them even more of a pain. Bust out the tissues, here come the tears, sweet and salty tears.[IMG]
    • Up x 2
  2. TR5L4Y3R


    remember when the devs put sunderer rear turrets into live from PTS? or when they put in new prototypetanks?
    me neither .. so to me it´s a 50/50 thing ..
    and by all means go make enough noise, maybe you can make enough to have them change bursters to do some fair antiarmordmg as the skyguard should ..

    also just for the record wrel is not the only VS biased dev but neither is he directly responsible for ballancechanges ..
    so lets not project on single persons here ..
  3. RedBlack

    So your main concern is, that VS might be Dominating the Battlefield? Oh come on...
    If the VS Buffs to the Max are really gonna be that Game breaking, im pretty sure they well nerf it afterwards again.

    And yes, the NC Max is Unbalanced compared to the other ones. I cant believe we have to still argue about this fact, after all the NC Max threats here and on Reddit. And calling the Nerfs on PTS to the NC Max a "Hardnerf" is not correct. I actully like the changes the Devs made.
    • Up x 1
  4. RedBlack


    Just because you do not like my opinion, does not mean you can insult me. OK BUDDY?
    I believe you are in panic mode, in fear of losing you unbalanced Farm Max.
    The NC Max has always been subject of discussion.

    Btw. the changes made to the NC Max on PTS, are exactly how the Scattermax should have been in the beginning.
    The Devs made some good changes imo.
    • Up x 1
  5. HippoCryties

    Lol don’t argue with him. Once a MAX ****ter always a MAX ****ter. He doesn’t understand how it is to play as a helpless infantry man
  6. LordKrelas

    TR basically got Ignored, NC's damage output is now the same as VS or TR's output at long-range, Medium-Rage, and Short-range.
    While also having a long-reload.
    So, the NC one, has to get close, to do the same as either of those Max Units.
    and without slugs, it means their entire damage per shot, is split across pellets, which must be landed on target.

    To give a comparison;
    VS MAX opens fire at medium-range gets reliable results (regardless of decent or indecent), NC MAX can't do anything a this range that is practical.
    VS MAX fires 1 shot, it needs to land 1 bullet.
    NC MAX fires 1 shot, It needs to land 6 pellets from said shot.

    VS MAX has 100~ rounds, and a short reload, for example; This is easily sustained fire, with little down-time.
    NC MAX has 12-20 Rounds, and a Large-reload. This is not sustained fire, and more time is spent reloading than shooting.

    NC is still CQC Specialized, and is dealing the same damage as VS & TR, whom are non-specialized, Whom deal NC's damage at all ranges.

    Would've preferred NC not had Shotguns, let alone if their Specialization means they get to do what VS & TR Maxes do, but only if they get close...
    As that means, NC's entire Max Unit, sacrificed range to... do nothing more.
    At which point; Why exactly did NC not switch to Machine-guns like VS & TR, if the entire CQC Advantage can't be balanced out?

    As specializing for CQC, to gain No advantages, unlike the Present model (Where it's bloody effective in CQC.)
    Given it sacrificed the ability to sustain fire, range, and now we have also only the pellet-storm-of-ages.
    So range is even less viable, as you always have to land numerous pellets on target per shot.

    That's my problem.
    VS was straight buffed, TR was Ignored, and NC is now paying in numerous aspects for their CQC which is equal to an VS or TR Max's effectiveness at Medium-Range or Long-Range.

    If 1 NC Max & 1 VS Max open fire; The VS can engage first, dealing the same damage output, from further away.
    Once the NC MAX closes the gap, it deals the exact same damage if it can manage to land every pellet from all the shots..
    So it front-loads the damage into bursts with a long-delay between, while the VS is constantly dealing said damage.

    I am not a Fan of Shotguns: Usually, as it's so-specialized, that it is hard to balance.
    IE, the weapon is usually either Impotent-for-the-user or straight-up "You-are-dead-instantly" for the target.
    Which, when you realize, you have to close the gap, nail the target with all the RNGESUS pellets fired at once per shot, and have no range, the price for said firepower is longer than the sentence telling you about the firepower.

    The OSC (Orbital-Strike-Cannon) has a similar issue: It's potent when it works, and needs so many requirements, that it's kinda laughable when it's not in this working-zone.
    But if it didn't have this massive requirement list, would be pretty broken.
    So it's a Balance Nightmare; As it's specialized Heavy for a Task.


    -- I hope I conveyed my Issue with them straight nailing the entire point of Specializing into CQC Weapons.
    As NC MAXes , do not have any AI Weapons, that AREN'T SHOTGUNs, so crippling them, Cripples the entire max.
    It would akin to nerfing the viable power of every single Chaingun for TR, and locking them to only the Cycler.

    Not to mention, while applying this change, They basically ignored TR's Max, while buffing VS's Max.
    NC will be doing horrid, TR will be doing their baseline right? Little issue.
    The TR Max will be fighting NC's Max, and fighting the VS Max: So against NC, the TR Max will look better.
    Even if, it's not performing any better at all. Which would leave TR, still having the actual lacking Max as before.
    As for NC, their firepower was nailed down, so the VS Improvement over Base will look more drastic.

    It's a very severe change to NC's entire AI weapon load-outs.
    The NC MAX outside of perfect-storms, was always under-whelming - while in said storms IE really-small buildings, doorways, or small-***-rooms, the Max Over-performed;
    As it's a shotgun.

    If in the perfect range, this weapon is equal in actual capability, as a longer-ranged more reliable weapon, that sacrificed nothing..
    The Shotgun user got ripped-off.
    Imagine if an Full-Auto Assault-Rifle had the damage of an Pump-action shotgun in 2-5 meter-range;
    Imagine being the Shotgun user, in the situation where your best range's damage, is equal to their normal damage at all ranges.

    Hence why it shouldn't have been a shotgun, if 2 of 3 maxes were going to be specialized in the same way, unlike the 3rd.
    As now it's aimed at the one max, for performance above & below.
    • Up x 1
  7. Commander Tychus

    Nice picture. Really says alot about THIS forum thread. But that also goes to the same regard for VS/TR who throughout the years continue to complain how NC is still kicking their ***** even if they're nerfed already. We'll always try to find another way to beat that nerf to our advantage.
  8. Demigan

    Let's see:
    • MAX's get more speed
    • MAX's get less damage resistance
    • MAX's get to choose if they carry two arms or one arms+ADS
    • MAX's get additional abilities they could use.
    Please tell me where it starts being "all over the place".


    Yeah! No middle ground! They either have like 0% resistances and are just a 2000 health infantry unit or they have 80% to 90% resistance like they have now and are tanks! All resistance value's inbetween don't exist! No siree!

    Yeah! We can give them weapons that deal no damage at all! Sounds logical! Keep going you are on a roll here!

    I'm going to ignore the rest of your "comparisons" until you've actually gotten a grip on what I'm proposing.

    You have no vision.

    First of all, you might have a lot of things that could be spawnpoints but that does not mean we have "too many". That's like the people who go "but there's X weapons that can damage aircraft so there's many many things that can shoot them down!". You could add 50 new Skyguard variants tomorrow and after the novelty has died down, the amount of people who actually pull an AA weapon would be the same. They would have more choice, but there wouldn't be more of them. Not unless one of those Skyguards was actually effective at killing instead of deterring.

    Second of all, it would benefit the defenders the most. Attackers already have the choice of placing their Sunderers and choosing their attack routes, defenders do not. Any Sunderers they place will with exception of a few bases all be destroyed because the attackers are almost guaranteed to have vehicle superiority. That vehicle superiority is necessary to get your Sunderers there safely. So the defenders are stuck with... 1 spawn. One. Not "too many", not various vehicles, not multiple spawnrooms (spawning on another spawnroom is rather pointless except in AMP stations that offer more than one), not "places throughout the map" whatever that means and spawnpads are much more rarely used. The defenders would be best suited to using them as it offers them alternatives out of the spawn, allows them to set up multiple attack routes and push the enemy better.

    Third of all, what the hell are you talking about? First you say that it benefits the attackers too much, then you complain that some bases can only be entered by MAX crashes (which means the attackers need more benefits)? Could you try to make sense?

    These medic routers would have revolutionized the game. It would have rebalanced classes (HA less omniversally useful, Medic+LA+Infil get more use), offered much more versatility in how bases are fought over and would make fights at the same base more unique and it would have made spawncamping harder as defenders have an easier time keeping alternatives open.

    How? Where? When? What have you been smoking that is either the best stuff or the worst stuff I can't decide!

    The effort would take too much, also you just said that some bases require MAX crashes or they are impossible to take. Your idea would require a disproportional logistics train to get them there for a short and possibly pointless assault. So far "thinking ahead" seems a fallacy. Also forced teamwork is the worst. Good teamwork is build naturally. You first let the player experience the game, then they naturally meet situations where allies help them and they their allies. As this progresses they start using more complicated teamwork. But since PS2 has nothing in the way of the bottom parts of teamwork and little to no reward for teamwork no one is learning to do teamwork.

    And if you are one of those people who thinks that having a microphone and a form of teamspeak consitutes teamwork I swear you really have to shoot yourself in the foot every time you say it. There's a reason armies around the world equip their squads with a bare minimum of radio options. You can't do teamwork in PS2's environment through microphone communication as every time one person talks no one else can provide information or orders so you either need the sophisticated radio etiquette and ranking system of a real true blood army where half the people are just relaying orders to specific persons who relay them more detailed based on the situation or you need to use visual information que's. Such as the simple spotting system which works like a charm.

    I didn't switch anything, considering your track record you quite literally want killingpower for the things you use and not for the others. That's not projection, that's simple deduction.
  9. Inogine

    Demigan, it's worth pointing out that I was pointing to your proposed changes there, not offering my own... Which you've done nothing concrete in nailing it out, unlike that guy in the thread I linked. You have a lot of maybes. My only conclusion is that it either has power or it doesn't, or it doesn't have power but moves faster? Nail it out bud.

    People don't tend to teamwork naturally according to most on these forums. Hence why everyone's complaining about the alerts right? I also have seen several instances of teamwork recently with the gal/lib brigade flying overhead murdering specific targets from the NC team. They didn't really hit TR in a TR/VS front leading me to believe they wanted VS to lose as much as TR usually likes to make'em lose. Just a guess there since they were in an area they couldn't capture.

    There's also the sundy of laughes me and a bud encountered where suddenly a sudden ripped up next to our harasser to suddenly deposit around 10ish heavies on top of us with rockets drawn. Meme'ing hard, but that's coordination is it not?

    Those medic routers would have meme'd the game to death. Imagine, a non-regulated spawn pad that allows everyone there to stay there... Ending in fights like we have on the south eastern part of Amerish where the "box base" (as my buddy lovingly dubbed it) can be infinitely held by routers... With no way to stop them unlike the current implementation of routers where you CAN stop them by finding the offending base. Half-thought out.

    That said, man... Should I pull a you and report you for trolling now? Cause that's what most of your post is at this point.

    Believe it or not, Demigan, I couldn't care less about who you are. I'm not actually out to get ya.

    EDIT: And yes, you did. You went from "GOTTA KILL IT!" to "It's not always about killing it." I've maintained my stance.
  10. Inogine

    Should be sundy rather than suddenly in the above post. RIP.
  11. Demigan

    And in other news, scientists have noted that when you are walking the potential for either slipping on an almost frictionless surface or getting stuck. Inogine now doesn't dare walk because he thinks there's nothing inbetween.

    I could nail it out, but you can't ever please everyone. That's why I tell you: Take my idea, and propose something that you would agree with as long as you acknowledge the changes. I have in previous 'discussions' made the idea more concrete but it did not improve the amount of bullcrap thrown my way. Case in point your complete ignorance of the middle-ground.

    Yes, according to these forums. These forums aren't something to go by. Also the reason why people don't tend to do teamwork in PS2 is because the game doesn't encourage it. You can't blame the playerbase for something if the game doesn't give you the tools necessary to do it.

    PS2's system of teamwork right now consists basically out of requiring everyone to be trained as generals, and then having these generals shout in each individual ear of his other generals to get things done. Additionally each general is pushed into roles it hasn't trained for (because the lack of training PS2 offers), so you get generals trying to act like footsoldiers, sergeants, lieutenants, captains, colonels etc.

    Because they don't think it through and point to a symptom, rather than the cause? Losing alerts is a symptom, not having good teamwork is the cause they say. But the lack of teamwork is also a symptom, in this case because the lack of incentives to learn and use teamwork as well as the lack of actual mechanics that allow teamwork.

    Grammar. It looks like the Gal/lib brigade is murdering specific NC people, but with the next sentence it seems like it's an NC brigade that is hitting a TR/VS front and killing VS.

    Also that's not really teamwork, that's again just a bunch of people who happen to be firing in the same direction. And having gunners in a vehicle is the bare minimum of teamwork you can ever get. The game needs more teamwork, build up from small to big. Not teamwork based on "well there happens to be a dude in my vehicle who can also fire so that's teamwork" or "I can order 48 people around but unless I keep it extremely general ("everyone go there!") most of the information will be useless for my people and prevents anyone else in my group to communicate".

    "ooh, there's a few edge-cases of teamwork, so the game has teamwork right?"

    -Inogine.

    By your reasoning just because there is something everything is OK.

    Are you truly that daft? "Hey there's this single edge-case where there might be a problem if I take the current router instead of the thing you proposed" is just a sad attempt at trying to create an argument for yourself.

    Considering you think in extremes and can't think off middle-grounds and deliberately pick and choose when you use the proposed usage vs the current in-game usage and even invent some to boot... How about I report you?

    So if it isn't deliberate, you are just not capable of making a solid argument?

    No I didn't, feel free to quote me on it (in context, because I know you'll try to rip it out), and once you realise that I'm right you'll either ignore this or rip it out of context anyway. Because that's the gist of our 'discussion' so far.
  12. Liewec123

    It was an observation, and from your response it was a sound observation.

    NC max on PTS:
    Deals less damage than TR and VS in CQC.
    Deals 440% to 600% less damage than TR and VS at 20m
    Has massively less sustain fire than TR and VS.
    So less damage at all ranges and a fraction of the sustain, literally worse in EVERY way.
    And your response is "yup, good balanced changes!"
    Tell me, if STUPID isn't the word, what is?
  13. Skraggz

    By definition, and a better word, not intended as an insult.

    ig·no·rant
    /ˈiɡnərənt/
    adjective
    lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
    • Up x 3
  14. Pacster3


    Show me that statistic please. You are just making things up...just like you guys always pretended that NC MAX was the worst of the bunch and had no range while EVERY stat out there showed the opposit. Nobody is gonna buy anything you claim anymore.

    We'll all see on the servers soon. I would be seriously surprised if NC MAX would not end up with the best results again(because no range is really got at middle or long ranges and they are not sued for that. CQC NC MAX is still the best.). They may just have to make clever use of their shield after this range nerf(unlike right now, when any braindead monkey gets great results with a NC MAX).
    But one thing is for sure: Even if the stats show NC MAX as best again you gonna whine about how weak it is.
    • Up x 1
  15. Inogine

    Demigan, pop a few Xanax and come back when ya have calmed down a bit. You're not reading anymore. I don't agree with a lot of stuff you say, but I'm not actually against you. But you have a hardon for me at the moment without reading so... Slow the roll bud. You've missed every point again... Which I suppose reading subtle hints isn't your strong suit. Did you notice the contradiction in my post there? Did ya happen to think it was intentional before going off the deep end? No, you tend to rip things out of context which makes that last sentence of yours hilarious.

    Also, my grammar was fine. Read it again. I don't always spell correctly and sometimes auto-correct muddles a word, but there you go.

    Not gonna bother with anything else from ya though. You're in full on rage mode, and you haven't provided anything concrete. My idea was simple, serves a purpose, and would fix the "MAXES KILLING EVERYONE EVERYWHERE!" problem while still maintaining a role to break through an enemy blockade. It's not the fix, but it is a fix.
  16. Liewec123

    i have seen plenty of people saying that, i am not one of them.
    with slugs the NC max had just as much/if not more range than TR and VS.
    HERE you'll see me actually arguing that point, so i'm not one of your "you guys".

    now down to brass tax, the PTS changes.
    i really wish i was.

    Bazino over on reddit did the number crunching (note they aren't even NC but still recognise BS balancing when they see it.)

    HERE is the 8m fully stats

    here is the TTK (both arms) vs infantry in CQC (within 8m)
    fastest first:
    Instant - Scatter cannon (all pellets required)
    488ms - Onlaught
    534ms - Cosmos
    534ms - Quasar
    564ms - Nebula
    564ms - Mercy
    574ms - Hacksaw
    600ms - Heavy Cycler
    600ms - Mutilator
    656ms - Blueshift
    666ms - Mattock
    1 second - Grinder

    as you can see, in CQC, 2 of the NC shotguns are the absolute slowest killers,
    and the "high dps" Hacksaws kill slower than freaking MERCY
    Scattercannons while retaining their 1 shot require every pellet from both arms to hit.

    here is the TTK (both arms) vs MAX in CQC (within 8m)
    fastest first:
    4,880ms - Onslaught
    4,935ms - Nebula
    5,250ms - Heavy Cycler
    5,250ms - Mutilator
    5,340ms - Cosmos
    5,350ms - Quasar
    5,640ms - Mercy
    5,740ms - Blueshift
    7,000ms - Scattercannon
    7,522ms - Hacksaw
    12,165ms - Mattock
    12,500ms - Grinder

    as you can see, within CQC, the "shotgun max" gets absolutely destroyed by EVERY weapon that TR and VS maxes have.

    and for kicks he did the 20m TTKs (again this is assuming every pellet hits, which would NEVER happen, but lets pretend.)
    you should check em out because it is HILARIOUS,
    Blueshift TTK against MAX? 5.7 seconds,
    grinder TTK against MAX? 33 seconds...

    these weapons with 10-20 seconds sustained fire are utterly destroying the shotguns in cqc,
    the shotguns have 3-4 seconds of sustained fire.


    this is the complete opposite of balance.
    • Up x 4
  17. Inogine

    If those changes go live, nearly anything can kill an NC max. They won't even be able to effectively protect themselves from C4 fairies flying right into their face. Not without otherworldly reflexes and aim. Even that might not save them just due to the RNG nature of it. As those stats show, it's pretty bad. You can test'em on the PTS server yourself and get a general idea pretty quickly. Alas, my begging for a buddy to log on to have a good ol' fashioned max duel hasn't worked so I haven't been able to test kit against kit and see how they feel but the numbers Bazino ran are pretty damning as you can see.
  18. Pacster3

    LOL...so NC MAX would almost be in the same place as VS and TR for the last couple of years? I feel soooooooo sorry for NC. No. Really.

    @liewec...you talking headshots there, right? As if everyone could line them up like nothing...
    • Up x 1
  19. Liewec123

    nope, we're not even talking headshots, NC max are simply outgunned by weapons with 4-5 times the sustained fire.
    its a loss/loss, less damage, less sustain, less accuracy, literally everything worse.
    nope,
    on live NC deal more damage but have zero sustained fire,
    that is how it is balanced out, hit like a truck but zero sustain.
    while TR and VS can kill things fast (but not instant) and keep firing for a veeeery long time.

    on PTS NC have been nerfed to do less damage than TR and VS, but still have zero sustain...

    so NC get lowest damage and zero sustain
    and TR and VS get high damage and high sustain.
    • Up x 1
  20. Pacster3


    Yeah. TR and VS Maxes could shoot for a long time. No accuracy then and no kills either tho. The KPD shows that clearly.
    And even after the nerf NC have better chances to survive when under fire due to their shield and they can instant kill which is mandatory to stop heavies and C4-fairies. You can keep pretending that it does not matter but I'm quite sure the stats on live will prove you wrong again. So wait and see. IF you should be right and NC will drop behind TR and VS to similar margin as it is now in the other direction then we can change it again...in...let's say...2 years? =P