On the Subject of PTS NC MAXes

Pistols have inflated stats due to when and where they are used.
NC MAX is more constrained than the other two MAX's and is used more often in its ideal ranges, inflating it's stats similarily to pistols. The VS and TR MAX's can be found in more situations. This is what I've always said about the NC MAX.

Your point that shotguns arent used as much as other ranges exist is something I've pointed out for years now: CQC is not the most important range, and the sacrifice of range for shotguns compared to any other weapon, even SMG's, is one of its biggest flaws. And again this reinforces my statements: NC MAX's are more hampered than the VS and TR MAX as they have less range options, and are used more exclusively in their ideal ranges.
Anyway, the shotguns still would have inflated stats because of this. This isnt twisting and turning, its just standard choices people make. You dont pick a sniper in an enclosed CQC environment. You dont pick a shotgun when you are going to fight at range.

And again you point out to one of my own arguments: shotguns arent easy mode weapons. You need great aim and perfect precision when pulling the trigger compared to "hold trigger and look at enemy" weapons. I advocate people to use them as it teaches you skills that will help you use other weapons better. And why would this skill requirement not count for the NC MAX?

They are found in more situations...which they are obviously bad at or they would overall have similar results as the NC one. There just ain't a situation where the VS or TR one is really good at. That's the problem. Being excellent in one situation and bad in an other is better than being average or even sub par in all situations. Especially if you can basicly choose in what situations you wanna fight.

You don't need "great" aim for shotguns. You need decent aim. Using shotguns(especially auto/semi-auto ones. Which counts for MAX shotguns) is hard for beginners...but you don't need to be really skilled for them either. It ain't magic. Reliably doing headshots with LMGs etc. is much much more challenging.
The discussion would be a different one if MAX shotguns were pump action...then you would really have to aim every shot instead of just pulling trigger and if the first doesn't hit then the second or third does(and each one having instagib potential).
At this point normal infantry shotguns are in a good place(they are either really slow or don't instagib and have no range). They need a limited amount of skill and in CQC become a worthy opponent for more skilled players with LMG etc. without of making it too frustrating to play against them.
However this does not count for dual shotguns supported by MAX amor and shield. It's just a huge difference if you got 2 shotguns and a shield and amor...or you are squishy and only got one shotgun.

Can we have this patched in ASAP? I'd really rather not be stuck waiting for the entire DX11 patch. It would make point holds fun again.

You have reaver as you display pic and yet you're eager for nc maxes to become utterly pointless.

I'll repeat again...
The shotgun max with no sustained fire and no range, outgunned by EVERY VS and TR MAX weapon in CQC.
There doesn't seem to be a limit to the number of times that I need to repeat this...

Either you folks don't understand why that is terrible balance or you simply don't care.
Disappointingly it is the latter for many here, I had more respect for the players,
I main NC, yes, but I don't want VS and TR toys nerfed to uselessness, this game is asymmetrically balanced,
NC have the best CQC max, TR have the best AA launcher, VS have the only sniper rifle without bullet drop.
(Just 3 examples off of the top of my head)
Shall we all act like childish brats and say "I know these changes are awful but haha its not my faction so do it!"
Striker change, heat seeking range reduced to 1m. "Haha yes do it!"
How about no, i'd defend against a nerf like that.


I've made buff suggestions for VS and TR,
and yet when some ridiculously unbalance changes are proposed for nc what do we get?
Spiteful children coming to parade their spiteful bias.
TTK (both arms) vs MAX in CQC (within 8m)
4,880ms - Onslaught
4,935ms - Nebula
5,250ms - Heavy Cycler
5,250ms - Mutilator
5,340ms - Cosmos
5,350ms - Quasar
5,640ms - Mercy
5,740ms - Blueshift
7,000ms - Scattercannon
7,522ms - Hacksaw
12,165ms - Mattock
12,500ms - Grinder

Zanaffar "delicious NC tears, best nerf ever"
Adamts01 "about ****** time."
Pacster3 "keep on crying."
HippoCryties "yes nerf that *******"
Trebb "can we have this asap?"

An army of spiteful children., they don't care about balance
they're just bitter and want everything nerfed that isn't their faction.

Yeah i really called it best nerf ever. And now guess who is making things up in his mind

Except it isn't a good nerf. Crippling NC in the MAX area will just see them give up in frustration and move en mass to another faction, as happened with the sudden influx of TR gatekeeper fans. The ping pong will continue to make fights one sided and kill the game. The last thing the devs should listen to is childlish little nerf crybabies. NC max hasn't even been any more of a problem than anything else. It's just crying like noah's flood for the sake of bumping into something that can't be effortlessly killed with altering the hitboxes and snooze modeing the game like most 'vets'.

Things should have been left well alone until a repurposing of max across the board could have be designed and PTS'd.

Deleting NC MAX so that you can laugh because its not your faction isnt smart. Its just another reason for people to quit ps2 having bought a good dozen or so cosmetics, arms and upgrades. Making the whole nerf pointless because large swathes of people wont bother to stick around.

Amazing how feeble minded some people are. MAX has been in the game since the start, you don't like it piss off to another game. Incredible how everyone has taken on the islamic strategy of moving somewhere they hate everything about with the mindset of ******* it up for everyone who was originally there. Enough of this bollocks already.

"This is like best thing ever."
"enjoy the ZOE treatment. "

your comments further down the first page...

you didn't come here to do anything but laugh at absolutely TERRIBLE balance.

Hahahaha. asymmetrically balanced? And then you come up with that? This is a point hold game. What do I want with a sniper rilfe inside a building? Or an AA launcher? Experience can make up for bullet drop...experience will not make a blueshift instagib tho.
NC has not the best CQC MAX. NC has the best MAX. And if you want something asymmetrical then it's the number of OP toys the different factions have. In case of VS you come up with some no bullet sniper rifle that you can compensate...a nerfed to bits magrider that has to rely on hit and run tactics(wow, I wonder what the T in MBT stands for) and some ESF frame that is the smallest from the front(as if you would usually ONLY see aircrafts from the front). But they got the best glowing balls....fancy!

The last truely better thing that VS had was the starfall...and gosh have you NC been flodding the forum for it(just like you did with the Canis, PPAs, Saron, Magburner and the ZOE). It was the only thing that actually brought the Flash on the battlefield. You got it nerfed and the Flash back into the trash bin for all. Congrats. And then you stand here after you abused the hell out of NC MAXes for years and do some "I don't want to get asymmetrical stuff nerfed"? Rich. Truely rich...you little hypocrit.

Yeah, let's not keep the ping pong going. Now that the NC got the overpop AND the best weapons. Let's keep it that way. Got your point, right?

The last thing I'm worried about are the K/D-ego-freaks that always need to play with the OP gun so their p**n ain't shrinking.

Terrible for who? NC players? Thats for sure. My bet is VS and TR players are wholeheartedly welcoming this change which was already needed waaaay sooner and it is miracle NC max stayed in his current OP AF form for that long.

actually the ones who aren't children are calling it a BS change,
there have been some in this thread if you read, and the reddit guy who ran the numbers is also a TR main.

they can recognise that when the "shotgun max" is outgunned in CQC by EVERY tr and vs weapon,
things are way out of whack.

its just spiteful bitter kids like you that are fine with the Hacksaws (the "high dps option")
having a longer ttk in cqc than freaking Mercy.

You have one weapon that is great for one range (up to 8 to 10m) and incapable of being used in any other.
You have another weapon that is slightly less great for that same one range, but capable at many others (up to 30+m).

You aren't going to use the first weapon outside of it's effective range as it's useless there.
You are going to use the second outside of it's effective range as it's still capable outside it. This means it'll score lower but have more versatility.

I don't see how you can't draw a parallel between infantry shotguns, that despite being used in the "every important battle is CQC" range is very little used, and when used only in area's where shotguns can easily close the distance. This naturally inflates their statistics compared to for example SMG's and CQC Carbines, which have more capable ranges and will be used outside of their effective range more often. And the same counts for MAX shotguns. Why wouldn't it? In fact this effect is worse on the MAX as the MAX is slower and requires more effort to close the distance. And no, that shield is rarely used to close the distance, just like the Vanguard shield is rarely used to close the distance despite all the TR/VS players who claim otherwise. It's a tool to escape after you've received damage, using it to close the distance just means you are unecessarily exposing yourself. And with the coming change the NC MAX will still have lower DPS than all the other MAX's, so that shield isn't going to even matter! "Hey I dodged some damage while my shield was up! But every time I lower it and open fire my enemy still murders my health faster...". Also do you have any idea how long that shield lasts when under fire from even one MAX? I bet you don't.

Since you need to aim as perfectly at the center of your opponent, taking their movement into account, the aim for shotguns does need to be great. Being off-center by even a little bit increases the miss-chance of multiple pellets by a large margin, and decreases your DPS tremendously. This isn't true for the TR/VS MAX who have only one RNG (COF) to deal with and not with the double RNG of COF and pellet spread. So a TR/VS MAX can be more off-center and still do just as well as the NC MAX, if not better as the NC MAX needs every shot to count as his magazine is so small. Additionally the TR/VS MAX's have lower punishment for misses as a single miss will not mean they've just missed whole percentages of their magazine.

They are in a terrible place. They already got the NC MAX treatment, just not as heavily. They lack the DPS you'd expect for sacrificing so much range, as even a single RNG pellet off-target and you lose the battle. Previously you could use the semi-auto shotguns to OHK if you stuck the barrel up someone's nose and got enough pellets to hit the head, this was incredibly difficult and probably one of the most skillful ways in the game to dispose of someone. Ofcourse the crowd still complains that shotguns OHK even though only the pump-actions can do it but for some reason the devs saw fit to say "screw you all" to anyone who tried to pull off something like that and removed this option.

So all you have left is picking either a shotgun that requires more aim to remain ahead of your opponent in the DPS battle and can screw you over with RNG anyway or picking a shotgun that is hit or miss and still can screw you with RNG.

No it doesn't, that's not even close to the truth. Do you know how much skill you need in situational awareness and intelligence navigating the environment to even approach an LMG user? Not to mention the higher skill required to aim perfectly at the center of an opponent or you are screwed. This is one of the big problem with gamers: They think shooting mechanics is just about the only important skill. This is where the whole sniper scene for example comes from, or the "honorable" people who try to force people to play their way alone and any other method is unfair and dishonorable (because they don't have a proper counter).

Really? Why don't you prove it?

Also I'm still waiting on your proof that shotguns are used in "the most common situation" as you described it, and therefore so powerful. Where are the stats to back that up huh? You still a hypocrite?

There you go: https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...15030&startDate=2019-01-01&endDate=2019-02-22

Really poor NC max underperforming. But this will be ignored and you will just continue to repeat 1 bias dev song like a broken player right?

Forget it. They ignore live stats, they ignore live gameplay. It's all just a spreadsheet game for them. And when the spreadsheet says in some unlikely ever to happen scenario the NC MAX is not no.1 then it IS DEFINITELY UNPLAYABLE. No tests needed. NC logic in a nutshell.

if you'd learn to read...i've repeatedly said that they should remove slugs,
slugs are the reason that NC are performing better than they should at long range.

also go ahead, find a post by me saying that NC maxes are underperforming on live,
i keep hearing things like this from you and Pacster...

even if you go back to page 9 of this thread you'll see me defend the point that NC maxes are best and slugs should be removed.




NC should be the max that hits like a truck at spitting distance but has no sustained fire and no range.
removing slugs would achieve that.

i've even gone further and said that they could nerf the damage if absolutely required, just as long as 2 things happen.
1. the shotgun max should not be outgunned in cqc by TR and VS, the PTS damage values are a freaking joke.
2. if they are nerfing damage then they need to ATLEAST double magazine size.

if those changes happen NC wont be oneshotting, NC won't have range but will still have the highest CQC dmg,
TR and VS will be VASTLY superior at range and only be a little worse than NC in CQC and still have way bigger magazines.

what i'm absolutely NOT ok with is NC getting outgunned in CQC, outgunned even harder at range
while still having zero sustained fire, only a moron would consider the PTS changes to be balance.

At this point I just hope this thread gets closed.
2 Players try to explain the changes.
and then 2 obvious trolls....

Hold on, so you compare the CQC NC weapons to the ranged VS and TR weapons? That's like comparing an NC shotgun to a VS and TR sniper rifle. Also you use KPU only, cherry-picked by the looks of it. If you look further you can see that for example the Mattocks are the least used of your selection. The average BR for Mattocks is also about 15 higher than the VS and TR weapons in your selection. All in all, the stats look like one thing: Mattocks are used in a much more narrow situation, IE it's ideal situation as it's incapable outside of it, requires a higher skillfloor to operate (hence the higher average BR) and only scores better because of this.

Looking further. Considering everyone claims that CQC is the most important range, you have to start wondering why the TR and VS MAX's have their least usage in the CQC weapons department. It's supposed to be the be-all-end-all range right? So why are so few people using it?

Not to get into this debate, but KPU is not a good measure of weapon performance. It's simply number of kills per unique user. For example, I could be the worst player in the world and get a better KPU with the Mag-Scatter than an MLG Betelgeuse Professional, if I just play more than they do.

A better indicator of performance would be KPH, which is number of kills within a specific timeframe, i.e. average kill rate.

Ok just to confirm that i understood this right.

In 1 hour for example VS pull 1000 maxes and gets 1000 kills
Meanwhile NC pulls 200 maxes and gets 1000 kills in an hour

So kph is the same. By your logic nothing is wrong right here am i right?

KPH is calculated per-user. NC and VS MAXes have the same KPH. So your scenario would not occur. If NC has a higher KPU, then it is simply because NC MAXes are being used more. That is all.

Heh you cherry picker. You do realize that KPH is viewable in your own source? But you specifically use KPU and not KPH, then when someone points out KPU is a bad stat to use you dont use the actual KPH... You make up an imaginary KPH difference extremely in favor for NC MAX's. For someone who just went "rah we have a site here with stats use em!" you have a real problem with actually using it.

Also if we want to know why you cherry pick...

Looks like "burn!" is a pretty good comment right now.

Also looking at how many uniques there are (less for NC mattocks) and how the average BR is higher for using them, it means that the weapons are used by fewer people who are more experienced and STILL they only manage to get the same KPH as the VR and TR? Gee I wonder if those shotguns are OP or not...