I'm soooo sick of this. I swear to god, it actually makes me feel sick. DBG you're idiots.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Zizoubaba, Jan 10, 2020.

  1. Zizoubaba

  2. malavon

    I'm not going to say the previous system didn't have its fault, but I do need to clarify something that has been said previously by proponents of the lattice system.
    What is commonly known as ghost capping is a base game mechanic. It's just opening a new front to fight on. There is nothing wrong with attacking a base that has no enemies and yes, it happens all the time. If that's ghost capping, lattice solved nothing.
    What was originally known as ghost capping was literally a ghost (of a player that's no longer there) who started the cap and then moved on to another base. I do not like that, but it also happens with lattice. But I digress.

    The whole point that zergs go out of each others way is still true. A zerg is mostly unregulated and as soon as real opposition shows up, they'll abandon the current lattice and move on to somewhere else. At least in the hex system the zerg could easily be cut off by a smaller force and rendered harmless. Zergs aren't a good thing to happen. They provide nothing but strength in numbers. The hex system had them, but they were less effective than with lattice. Anyone mounting a defense against an incoming zerg is just setting up for failure until the friendly zerg steps in.
    The only times zergs "clash" is when a crucial facility - the *cough* crown or a biolab - is captured or when a faction is nearing the warpgate. And from that point on, the enemy zerg will disperse and move on to fight the other faction.
    Cutting them off however is a perfectly viable tactic and it forces the members of the zerg to start thinking about their choices. It forces them to actually make a strategic decision of maybe going into another adjacent base instead of sticking with the zerg. It forces them to look at the map and see if nothing is being capped behind them. The map isn't informational, it's an essential part of the game. If I recall correct it used to be the first screen to open after logging in. Not sure about that one though.
    I know that it's a lot more scary to take a base with a single squad than it is with 3 platoons. And if you don't like that that's fine, stick with the big blob of people. But leave people who do love tactics the choice.
    I get it, big fights are fun and I love them too. But ps2 used to be tactical on top of that and that tactical gameplay is mostly gone.

    One more detail: the difference between the hex system and the lattice system is nil in essence. The very first lattices were just a translation of the hex system after which lattices were dropped to follow the roads and other geographical features. If you're advocating to add lattices, you're just as well advocating for the hex system. It's no more than a graphical display. In fact, when lattice was introduced there was this bug that showed a lattice on Amerish even though it officially didn't have one. That lattice wasn't like a cobweb or anything, but it was more intricate than what we have now. It's difficult to compare pre-lattice and current Amerish though because the map has been changed in-between as well.
  3. Johannes Kaiser

    My opinion: THe lattice system streamlined the fronts and made it harder to run from base to base and ghostcap an entire section of the map. That's good. But it also almost eliminated the viability of small teams (talking 2-5), which is incidentally the way I prefer to play PS2 with friends (whether in support of a larger group by doing side objectives like destroying sundies etc or capping on our own). Small squad play is almost irrelevant now, because if you move somewhere with more enemies, you're set up to fail. If you move somewhere with noone, either it's boring or soon three times your number of enemies show up, setting you up to fail. Only in very rare cases you get solid small fights, and then sooner or later one side will call reinforcements and it'll be over.
    With hex, there was always the possibility to evade the the next base, not one the next line away (often enough being on the other side of a major obstacle) and try your luck there. And the enemies were doing the same thing, creating a lot of small fights that were really enjoyable.
    Cutting off others back then required maybe a squad of people (unless the enemies were observant), whereas now you need an entire zerg on its own, because you have to conquer an entirely different line until they link up, and then probaby a bit back as well.

    TL;DR: Hex system had good small fights with a bit of luck due to population spreading out, lattice system only has them on the fifth sunday of a month, between 11 and 11:30 am (proverbially and exagerrated). Hex system supported groups big and small, lattice heavily emphasises big groups.
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  4. Zizoubaba

    You're right, however let me share my experience as a solo player. Cause I do what you do with your friends, except I do it solo.

    A few years ago, continent pop (I know that isn't what you're talking about but bear with me :p) who play a much bigger role than today. If one faction had a couple % more "continent" pop than the others, it would make a big difference, they'd be harder to push against or defend against.

    Today that hardly matters, what matters is what that pop is doing, cause if you've got 50% of the population of an entire faction in a biolab, you could say that it's as if your faction had 50% less people fighting for it (a lot more than just a couple %), and that's the kind of thing that happens a lot.

    So, what I'm getting at is if you and your small group of friends start capping a base, the amount of backup you will get, or that the enemy will get depends largely on this. If everyone is busy in the biolab, no one is going to spawn at your sundy. On the other hand, it is likely that the enemy faction hasn't really got anyone to fight, that they have an overpop in pretty much all of their fights. They have a "surplus" if you will, and as soon as they see the timer running on one of their bases, and that little green dot, bam, 10 of them spawn there in an instant.

    That's the biggest thing you have to watch out for when pushing or starting fights. It isn't always true, but works as a general rule, most of the time.

    There are other things too. For example, the new spawn system is wonky, I still haven't figured out how it works, but I have noticed, very often, that if a small fight is starting somewhere, I cant' spawn there even if I want to. Even though if I spawn at the previous base, pull my own sundy and drive there, I see that they already got a sundy. So sometimes the game (I have no idea how or why) prevents your allies from spawning.

    Lastly, people don't pull sundies anymore. I mean some do, but it isn't rare that I am the only one on the whole continent to actually deploy a sundy in an enemy base and start a fight (I'm talking outside of prime time). It used to be that everyone was doing it, and so that some of those fights would be over-run by enemies, some would be ghost caps, but many would be good even small fights.

    Now I know how what I'm about to say sounds really cocky, but it's true, I swear to god. I have saved a faction, I have own an alert, all on my own, more than once, many times, simply by manipulating the population. The most simple example is cutting of a biolab. It shouldn't be, and it isn't always, but it's sometimes surprisingly easy since no one these days seems to pay attention to the map.

    By cutting off a biolab, you'r forcing all the players there, eventually (cause a lot of those nubs will still stay there staring at the enemy spawn for hours even though there's no one spawning there) to go fight somewhere else and that is very often enough to turn the tide not just on that area of the continent, but in all the fights that faction is engaged in.

    It's one example, there are others, but in short, you can still make a difference with a small team of friends, but it requires more than simple strategy like "we need to take that base". Sometimes it's easier to take 4 or 5 bases going round and cut it off. (which is ********, because players should see what is happening and stop you but they don't).

    It's dumb, it's ********, but if you want to make a difference today, you not only have to understand how the population spread works, but how to manipulate it .... Sometimes, the only way for your faction to win an Alert, is for you to cut off the biolab before doing anything else.
  5. Demigan

    There is a huge difference in ghost capping then and now.

    Opening a new fight isnt a ghostcap and easily recognized. The person attacking is invested in capturing the base and will do so by providing spawns for his allies and holding the point through combat.

    A ghost capper functions differently. He rarely provides spawns for his allies and at his core he avoids combat by either hiding out somewhere in the base or by moving to the next base. It becomes a waiting game for the defenders to see if the ghost capper has moved on or is waiting for you to go away. The defenders will ineviteably want to move on and get stuck in an actual fight. Winning through boredom is the antithesis of gameplay and should never be encouraged or functional in the game.
    The Hex system facilitated this method far better. You could take a base and unless the base was surrounded (and good luck ghost capping that) there was a 100% guarantee that you could move to another base to start a ghostcap. It meant that a ghost capper never had to look far or long for another base to ghostcap.
    The lattice system prevents that. The next base has a good chance of being the next in line and uncapturable or connected to a lattice that isnt connected to your area yet. This means that to ghostcap they cant just drive up and down your frontline but have to travel large distances and redeploy often through the lattice to reach their destination. Add to that the option to stop the ghost capper by attacking the next base in line which would take more bases in the Hex system and the lattice system has less than 1/10th of the ghostcap problems.

    Zergs in the Hex would storm at each other and deliberately not attack eachother, which is in the nature of how the lattice worked: if you encountered resistance you moved to a base nearby where the attackers did have success. In the lattice they'll attack eachother wherever and whenever. Zergs peter out when getting kills becomes nigh impossible. A 96+ zerg will rarely remain intact when there's less than 12 people to kill and will continue as a small zerg which can eventually be countered.
    So the tactical element as I keep repeating was less with the Hex system. The most tactical thing you could do was cut off a brainless zerg that didnt have ghostcappers radiating out from the main column. Wow a single tactical option how great...

    After all the things you said about the differences between Lattice and Hex you now proclaim them to be almost the same? Just the fact that you cant randomly capture any base adjacent to your territory means that the lattice is wildly different.

    As for what I'm proposing. Even if you are allowed to create lattices towards every single base YOU FIRST HAVE TO CREATE THEM. That is the entire point! You dont just capture a base and have a lattice link to every single base at its circumference, you would need to build and maintain that lattice. The defenders in turn would be able to deactivate that link by destroying the lattice generator, whatever that generator will be. This offers a wildly different structure to combat and playstyles compared to both the current lattice and the Hex system. The fact that you think that the option of a lattice link anywhere automatically is a Hex system is ridicous at best and downright idiotic at worst.
  6. Johannes Kaiser

    I know, sometimes even small groups can do amazing things. Here's a screenshot from about 4 years ago (and since then things have taken an additional slight turn for the worse, at least that's how it feels to me): https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=575447508
    We did that with 3 people, the entire eastern line, starting at Ymir. Because resistance was minimal for the most part, and where it was not we were able to call in a few extra people, because back then the orders chat was still a thing.
    Problem is, that's often enough not the case. And it depends on the open continents. Hossin, I made the experience, is better for small groups, however we all detest the continent, so there goes that. Indar is abysmal due to the inherent T.
    So you have to work way harder for solo or small groups to actually be viable than in earlier days. About 3 times as hard. That combines fighting harder, better placement, perfect application of assets available etc. When it used to be "mindful application", now it's "application with such a focus a scalpel is a blunt instrument in comparison". And that's merely for comparable results and fun.
    • Up x 1
  7. Zizoubaba

    Lol that screenshot is ********, you must have done that at like 4 am or something right?
  8. Liewec123

    i forget if they said what server they're on in the OP, but on Cobalt VS actually do this at primetime.
    somehow managing to have 80% overpop at every base they're pushing despite the map screen saying pops are even...
    VS just zerg over everything on Cobalt at primetime.
    i last played on saturday at primetime and they had a faction warpgated on indar (the main map open at the time) and held the majority of the rest.

    i used to enjoy playing my VS (lasher is my favourite weapon, and my 2nd favourite is probably Phaseshift)
    but now i just skip the character entirely because i just feel so dirty playing them...
    • Up x 1
  9. Rooklie

    Yeah I'm on Cobalt.

    Basically, to simplify things, if you were to characterise a faction's population;

    1. There are those who care but are inexperienced or dumb
    2. There are those who don't care (and so their behaviour might seem dumb)

    there's a bonus factor:

    Bonus. Outfits and active squads/platoons.

    I really have a hard time sometimes figuring out if the players simply don't care, or if they are inexperienced or dumb. But I've played all 3 factions on Cobalt, and VS for sure has more people who care and probably less inexperienced or dumb players.

    It isn't science of course, just a feeling I get.
  10. Johannes Kaiser

    Nope, can't quite remember whether it was late morning (like 11 am) or mid-afternoon, but I'm positive it was on a weekend. Not really prime time, but also not sleep time.
    • Up x 1
  11. Scatterblak

    Agree, 100%. There are FAR TOO MANY instances where players post suggestions or 'solutions' to address their own challenges by changing/crippling the gameplay of other players/classes, etc. You don't dig K/D? Don't ******* look at it. You don't like me checking my K/D, because you think it might make me play the game differently than you think I should play it? Too bad for you, punkin'.
  12. Scatterblak

    I play for K/D - IMHO, it's a measure of accuracy, effectiveness, etc. I could fall asleep trying to care what anyone else thinks. I've often had a K/D as a CQC Inf (*not* sniping) over 20, and had streaks close to 50 with just a knife or a pistol, and never used any of those implants. Ammo Printer and Catlike are all you need to stay in the field, get away, attain high ground, and harry the enemy through attrition. Patience, knowing when to pull the trigger and when to wait, etc.

    Playstyle, not implants - that's what matters.
    • Up x 1
  13. Rooklie

    here's another, like I said, it happens every day, all day, all the time :


    There was 96+ TR capping the tech Plant while they were being cut off at Chimney.


    but wait for it..

    So they got cut off by less than 12 NC at Chimney, and instead of going back to try and re-capture it.

    They pushed on.



    I mean seriously.


    edit : forgot to mention, that if you to the top of the map, in the meantime, VS pushed from ******* SUNGREY to the BIOLAB and TOOK TEH BIOLAB in the time it took those 96+ idiots to cap ONE EMPTY TECH PLANT followed by another cut off and empty base.
  14. Rooklie

    In the end, they pushed to auraxis....... Thats what zergs do right? They just go forward and forward for no reason, without thinking, without the slightest awareness of anything remotely tactical, even if it's a simple thing such as "getting cut off".

    And of course, they wiped on Auraxis.


    Summary of the entire operation ?

    Loss of Chimeny plus the other base they took after.
    Loss of tech plant, which they took 20 minutes to take even if it was EMPTY.
    Loss of the VS base that was cut off.
    Wipe on Auraxis.

    The issue isn't what these idiots do, there are idiots everywhere doing idiotic stuff all the time.

    The issue is that since they represent the HUGE MAJORITY of th)e TOTALITY of the TR faction population, and since the time spend is 100% wasted, during that time, VS and NC push forward easily, without resistance ,cause there's no one to defend against them.

    Which is why we could add to the loss, the rest of the 2 western NC lanes and the northern biolab.


    Now, this happens all the time. And when it happens, the consquences of this are heavy on the TR faction (I explained why just a few sentences above).

    Meaning that if you're solo, or a small squad, whatever fight you will have, defending or attacking, will always be unfairly balanced.

    And in the worst cases, it means that again, for solo or small squads, there is literally nothing they can do.
  15. JibbaJabba

    If you don't like what your platoon leaders are doing, try leading your own platoon.

    There is no one faction that has a monopoly on stupid players or bad commanders.
  16. Rooklie

    I've lead plattons, I lead outfits and guilds in other games, what I do in my personal life is none of your business.

    This isn't just stupid players.. This is 96+++ (a lot more than 96++++) stupid players.
  17. Demigan

    It's not stupid if there are no incentives to really capture a continent (also 48-96 means that there is anywhere between 48 to 96 players. This could be 2 lost NC players against 48 TR). When playing a game you need to create encouragements for players to do something. There always needs to be a payoff, and that's a problem in an objective system where only 1/3rd of the players are going to be rewarded for capturing the continent.

    You need to start small, always very small. You have a final objective of capturing the continent, and you need to cut that down into many many smaller objectives for players to complete. Capturing a base is still too big and it takes too long to achieve. Capturing a point often also takes a long time to slug through a base and capture it unless you are Zerging so... Where are the tiny objectives? Where are the little things a player can complete to get a reward while fighting for the base, which will make fighting for the continent worth it even if you lose? Or even make it worth fighting for a base that you are going to lose? And I'm talking about something that is supportive of capturing the base regardless of how or when you do it. Kills promote farming rather than capturing bases.

    And that's the problem. Capturing points, bases and continents are too large an objective for single players to achieve. And that single player is going to want to enjoy himself while trying to get a 1/3rd chance of victory. The only objective with a lasting effect currently is KD and nothing else, so that's what people will do: Farm KD in a way that interests them.
    Solutions are simple: Make other statistics that help promote base capture more prominent. Destruction of vehicles, aircraft, MAX's, capture and holding points for X amount of time etc. On the other hand player-made objectives that automatically scale with player numbers would help tremendously. The Router for example was originally supposed to be a Medic deployable with limited range so that players nearby could spawn on it, helping the Medic change and push the frontline while the Infiltrator and LA got a larger role in hunting these type of objectives.

    Now let's see what you've done so far to remedy this problem you think you are having:
    To make people stop being "stupid", you have so far insulted them on these forums and asked "I want you to do this, why don't you do what I want?". Do I dare compare this behaviour to that of a child again? Where is being constructive? Where is an introspection as to why people are doing something, rather than stating what you want and insulting people who don't do that immediately? Where is offering solutions to this problem based on your experiences beyond "I want this and you should do it"?
    • Up x 1
  18. Rooklie

    yeah whatever
  19. Rooklie

    and they keep doing this, here's another example :


    This time they are fighting in Sungry, which is secured on all 3 sides. (for those of you new to the game, that means that the enemy cant do anything to the base, they can't capture, they can trigger generators).

    Meanwhile, 2 bases before that, at NC Arsenal, VS is basically ghost capping the base. (that's where I died).

    It's looking suspicious, I mean on that scale, so I checked the population, and sure enough, NC has a good 5% less than TR. (3% less than VS).

    I suspect this is a NC platoon playing on TR and trying to sabotage.

    I mean, what else could it be? Could players be that stupid that consistently?
  20. JibbaJabba

    I didn't ask what you do in your personal life nor do I care.

    And if it's that many players being stupid... maybe you're the one missing something.

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