I'm soooo sick of this. I swear to god, it actually makes me feel sick. DBG you're idiots.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Zizoubaba, Jan 10, 2020.

  1. Demigan

    It is incentives, but punishing to play isnt the way to go. You should make sure players are rewarded for playing the game as much as intended too. If you punish players for attacking the lowest pop regardless of the situation you'll just have sad players.
    On that note the fact that being double-teamed is experienced as bad gameplay is in itself a giant red flag that something is wrong. We should be making it FUN to be outpopped by the enemy. Spawnrooms should SUPPORT the defenders, not act as a chokepoint against them. When you are outpopped you should be getting advantages. Items and vehicles could start costing less until they are completely free. You could be allowed to call in vehicles outside of the base. You could be allowed to use drop-pods in an increasingly large area the more and the longer you are outpopped so you can more accurately attack points of interest like the Sunderer or take points. The test server at one point had containers drop from the sky and when accessed they spawned an experimental vehicle, the same process coulc be used by outnumbered players to call in a container, access it and spawn a vehicle of their choice. The distance from the base and the type of vehicle that could be accessed can change depending on how long and how much you are outpopped. Mechanics could change to accomodate this as well, such as allowing outpopped players to add time to the timer so that they can hold back capture of a base without having to take the points. The point is to give an enjoyable chance to fight back.
    • Up x 5
  2. iller

    Yeah that's part of it and I don't like talking about VS equipment versus the other 2 factions.
    I avoid those conversations.

    But I also know that many of our competent NC players on connery would often switch to VS instead because the advantages are still just noticeable enough in Infantry fights. Vanu can actually get outclassed in ground vehicle fights in my humble opinion. But I know for a FACT that there is a strong aversion to strictly only fighting VS in infantry only fights over small bases one after another along a Lattice.

    TR and NC especially prefer to stay in their Vehicles longer moving from one base to another.
    VS are incentivized to get out as soon as possible and take up medium range firing angles as infantry.

    And I can't stress this enough: I've gone around to these Farms over and over and over again asking players there why they weren't fighting VS who had more than 50% territory control and they all say similar things essentially. "Fighting vanu isn't FUN". Fighting eachother however "feels" to them like a more even playing field which is a sentiment I don't personally understand (62% of my kills by empire are all VS)

    .

    But I do know that it doesn't help that TR and NC are constantly having Brain-Drain defections to the VS because if you care about the Map, then you're going to prefer to play with the faction that is known for having much tighter Coordination, esp in its immediate response ZERGING along with also having Recursion, the best ppl on the Server. ...and then also NOT having to play AGAINST XPIT which is a (and I don't care who gets mad at this, any observant human being will have noticed it by now) VS outfit with more actual subtle Skript Kids and lagwizards percentile wise in it than HIVE or SOL combined use to have.

    .

    Punishing XP or Certs or ISO is not the way to go, I agree. But I absolutely will defend to the bitter shutdown of the the Game the idea of punishing stat PADDING when it comes to these stupid monotonous farms because if people just want to TDM all day and never think about "Strategy" and logistics and never leave the Sunderer spawn they're stuck at, then there's already other much more popular Shooters out there with better execution on their Gunplay for those types of players to go play instead. Ps2 isn't leading with its best foot forward when it's allowing this CANCER we see in these image above. IE: WHY does planetside2's Community even need to EXIST if this is the best it can offer to 2 out of 3 of its factions?
  3. Irathi


    No offense taken, but you're quite mistaken there. I'm Co-lead of BRTD on Miller and teamwork with combined arms is what we do.

    Edit, to elaborate a bit; Most evenings and particularly on Thursday night OP's we'll have anywhere from 12 to 48 players. 1-2 squads of infantry, 1 squad of vehicles and 1 squad of aircraft. While Thursday is our most serious play-the-objective day where it's all about capturing bases or winning the alerts, most of our coordinated effort the other days also lean towards the same objective. Capture bases, win the alert. Disrupt the enemy zerg, counter their armor, destroy the spawns, drop on the point.
  4. Atorum

    When you cater to the most OP faction in the game and dont care about game balance this is what happens, Ive seen it on Miller, Emerald and Connery.
    My suggestion is just quit playing, game is garbage and will not change.
    This discussion reminds me of Horde players in Vanilla claiming that their Racials arent OP and we just need to learn to play, its same **** in this game, you have moron devs who dont even play their own game except Wrel who plays VS and NC mostly, I loved when he made videos with his TR char to show how unbiased he is, it was so pathetic, anyway, just quit, this game isnt going to get better.
  5. DarkStarAnubis

    There is nothing unusual in the picture, OP.

    Yes, people gravitate toward Biolab battles because those places are confined, no air/ground vehicles, short distance between spawn the battle area, high probability to get many kills in a short time and get quickly rezzed when killed.

    That is what the majority of Infantry players like apparently.

    That is far more fun than fighting Zergs of tanks in an isolated outpost till the capture clock runs out (the outpost is lost anyway).

    All the discussions about individual versus empire rewards and the toxic behavior created by giving too much weight to KDR/KPM as the sole way to "be good" aside, the Biolab show that most of PS2 players are foot soldiers and they perceive vehicles as an annoyance. All they want is kill other foot soldiers, quickly if possible.

    How would you change that?
    • Up x 1
  6. Zizoubaba



    There's a million and one ways in which I would change that, in particular the spawn system, but I've gone through those a million times before.

    Honestly though, roll-back to January 2015, it's that simple!
  7. Marik


    I think something came out wrong here.

    Well, I've only been playing for a little over a year and on the PS4 server Ceres. Maybe it looks different on a PC.

    First, in my experience, certain class and class layouts are preferred by solo players who just want to press their KD. Where is the teamplay of a cloaker that just sits in the corner and doesn't even use any reconnaissance tools and only attacks when the opponents are almost dead?
    Besides, I hardly see anybody who pulls a Sundy from such players. Or even follow a waypoint. Why should they? Why strategically occupy areas when you can farm in bio.

    Secondly, I don't mind if beginners play as easy or something. But I think if you want to fight in a vehicle you should also play as an engineer.
    I get a prowler, some random guy gets in and if it burns and I try to save it, they jump out and run away. I'm sorry, that's not a team play for me. Especially great are people like that, who always come back after you get a new car.
    I can think of one who acts the same way right off the bat. I always throw him out in protest. And he is no longer a beginner.

    Third, that's the mentality there. But as I said on the PS4 EU server. I don't know now what this has to do with the classes.
    But for example, if I want to fly a Valkyrie at VS and am looking for engineers, do you think I will find one quickly? And I know that some of them have what it takes but they don't play with others. Even if you write to them. Or I'm looking for a Lib shooter/pilot, but I can't find one because I hate the Dalton and I use a different flying style in general.
    I understand that from a club of elites. They can do something, I don't deny that, but just because you don't play like them, you're not taken seriously.
    I know every faction has such players, but only Vanu has a negative connotation.

    ------------------

    Ich glaub hier kam was falsch rüber.

    Also ich spiele nur seit etwas mehr als ein Jahr und dazu auf dem PS4 Server Ceres. Kann gut sein das auf dem PC anders aussieht.

    Erstens, meiner Erfahrung sind bestimmte Klassen und Klassen Layouts von Solo Spielern bevorzugt, die nur ihre KD drücken wollen. Wo ist das Teamplay von nem Dauercloaker der nur in der Ecke hockt und nicht mal ansatzweise Aufklärungswerkzeuge benutzt und nur dann angreift wenn die Gegner fast tot sind?
    Außerdem sehe ich von solchen Spielern eigentlich kaum jemanden der nen Sundy zieht. Oder geschweige mal nen Wegpunkt folgen. Warum auch? Warum strategisch Gebiete einnehmen kann, wenn man im Bio farmen kann.

    Zweitens, ich habe nichts dagegen wenn wenn Anfänger als Leicht oder so spielen. Aber ich bin der Meinung wer in einem Fahrzeug mit kämpfen will, sollte auch als ein Ingenieur spielen will.
    Ich zieh mir nen Prowler, irgendein random steigt ein und wenn der brennt und ich versuche den zu retten springen die raus und verdrücken sich. Tut mir leid, das ist für mich kein Teamplay. Besonders toll sind solche Leute wenn die dann immer wieder kommen, wenn man sich ein neues Fahrzeug geholt hat.
    Da fällt mir schon auf aus dem Stegreif einer ein, der genauso agiert. Den ich mittlerweile aus Protest immer rausschmeiße. Und der ist schon lange kein Anfänger mehr.


    Drittens, so kommt mir die Mentalität da so vor. Aber wie gesagt auf dem PS4 EU Server. Ich weiß jetzt nicht was das mit den Klassen zu tun hat.
    Aber mal ein Bsp. Wenn ich mal bei VS ne Walküre fliegen will und Ingenieure suche, denkst du da finde ich soi schnell einen? Und ich weiß genau das ein paar von denen was drauf haben aber einfach mit anderen spielen tun die nicht. Auch wenn man die anschreibt. Oder ich nen Lib Schützen/Piloten suche, aber keinen Finde weil ich die Dalton hasse und auch allgemein nen anderen Flugstil benutzte.
    Das verstehe ich von einem Club aus Eliten. Die können was, bestreite ich auch nicht, aber nur weil man nicht ganz so spielt wie die wird man nicht ernst genommen.
    Ich weiß jede Fraktion hat solche Spieler, aber nur bei Vanu kommt mir das besonders negativ rüber.
  8. Liewec123

    that was years ago, back when TR were the OP faction.
    back then TR also caused SoE to change the rules of the "World Domination" event because they had a higher score than NC and VS combined.

    but now-a-days we're in the era of Wrel, VS are the OP faction.
  9. DarkStarAnubis

    The spawn system is abismaly stupid and irritating I wholeheartedly agree, but what was there in 2015 (I joined PS2 later)?
  10. Zizoubaba



    I would really need to write a wall of text to answer that and a) no one reads those and b) I don't fee like it :p

    However, I can still answer your question from a different angle, from the result :

    The result of the dev's work.

    Before SOE changed to DBG, the game had depth, it had a really wide variety of experiences, from your standard "pew pew" to really tactical and strategy elements, mostly exploited by active outfits during their "ops", but also, anyone could benefit from this experience, I did, as a solo player.

    But that variety was balanced. Today, it's totally out of balance, and I'm not just talking about individual stats, such as the Liberator (which is way OP atm imo). I'm talking about a balance between players who wanted a tactical game, one where you had to use strategy, a game that combined arms air and land, not just a ******* KD fest in a biolab.

    You had all kinds of profiles, from the guy or girl who logged in for like 1 hour and just wanted a fight, to fight anything, anyone, he or she didn't care, the try hard outfits that spent their time looking for ways to conquer territory.

    But it worked, it was balanced, and in one important way, the different player profiles' gameplay didn't, or rarely did hinder other profiles' gameplay. Today, I'm really frustrated because I always loved the tactical aspect of the game, but when your own faction is making you lose because they don't care, when that represents the majority, it's literally gamebreaking.

    Those two types of gameplay can be compatible, it was some years ago, but objective driven players' actions rarely hinder the gaming experience of those who don't care and just want to fight (except I suppose when they "kill the sundy and kill the fight", the behaviour, if it's a big enough number of players, and currently it's the overwhelming majority, who don't care prevents those who do care from enjoying themselves.

    Lastly, the way the game was structured meant that the players who didn't care would fight alongside those who did. They were "channeled" in a way that was intelligently organised. Today, you can have a biolab fight in a biolab that's cut off by 2 bases on all sides, and still if I'm in the warpgate and click on "join combat" the game will spawn me in that ******* biolab.

    (this was my "not wall of text version" lol, I could go in detail, and there's lots of stuff I haven't mentioned, but yeah, like I said earlier.



    ___

    Edit -> forgot to add this : people will often react to this and argue :; "but if players just wana pew pew, then let them pew pew, you have to give players what they want".

    To which I'd reply two things :

    1. It's part of the dev team's work to channel and guide and most importantly, to inspire player interest. If they just wana pew pew, that's basically a really critical statement that says "your game sucks, we don't want to play it, we will ignore all of the content however, we do like to fight for no reason." If players don't want to play the game as it's intended, even if it is a sandbox, then that's a fail for the dev team.

    (for example a lot of players are reward driven, given them a good enough reward and they'll go for it)

    2. This argument I use very often cause its simple and true; if you were to give players of single player games access to the console commands in the standard menu, allowing them to cheat, they would. If you gave players the option to cheat, players will cheat.

    So, you'd conclude, players want to cheat, so let them cheat?

    It's an obvious argument, and if most game allow access to a console, it isn't part of the standard menu, the people who make games don't want players to cheat in their games, and as such, they do not give players what they want, just cause they want it.
    • Up x 2
  11. Nuggz

    I've lost count of the number of platoons I've been in that refuse to fight VS because it is not a balanced fight at all. VS has always needed a rebalance, I started as VS and left because it's too easy.

    I've also lost count of the number of squads/platoons that sit in a biolab or Ti Alloys for HOURS, ignoring all else on the map. I'd like to see these stagnant battles start to pay out less and less xp the longer you're there. XP can be considered you learning through experience but you don't learn much doing the same thing OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and.....
  12. Scatterblak

    I see it, and just don't agree with it. There are plenty of times I log in and see it happening to VS as well. This is due to bonehead players playing for kills, and ignoring territory.

    ...just like alll the vets said would happen when the lattice was enacted.

  13. Nuggz

    This game lost a lot of fun for me when the lattice system went it. It forces all the fights to be in predictable locations reducing attack options and thus reducing variation of battles.

    I personally think respawns in a cut off base should have 2x the respawn timer length. A cut off base should be MORE difficult to defend not just as if it had never been cut off at all.

    Players who're only interested in an hours long fight at one single base are not exactly doing what I would call "keeping this game alive". Quite the opposite in fact, they've driven off a large portion of the less brainless crowd.
    • Up x 4
  14. Zizoubaba



    No, you didn't see it at all.... the VS owning most of the continent in my screenshot is a coincidence, it happens also with all the other factions. The "VS thing" is something people commenting in the thread brought up, but it wasn't in my original post.

    The game is what makes this happen, the spawn system is what makes this happen, the reward system, the objectives and missions.

    And it's not random, it's regular, it regularly happens.

    The only thing is, if the devs and/or players are judging the game stats and analysing gameplay by looking at what happens at prime time and ignoring the rest of the time, they'ill have a very flawed vision of what is happening. I'm beginning to suspect that that is one of the big issues; devs balancing the game on all levels for prime time experience.

    Prime time is very different to the rest of the time in particular because that is when most active outfits play together and where they and public platoons and squads. A good example is liberators, the high population during prime time can make it very difficult for them to perform but outside of prime time they can hover 10 meters above ground nuking everything and everyone without being disturbed. That principle applies to the rest of the game, in particular, population management (for example, with how the spawn system works).
    • Up x 3
  15. BloodArmoredApostle



    I despise your suggestion in removing KD any player would want to know their KD you realize you are taking away from the player to solve the problem? This game Planetside has always had KD stop trying to get people to do what you think they should. This game is about doing what you want within the parameters of the game. The problem is the game needs more depth to territories and actual progression other than XP and guns. This is the problem with shooters in general. You have people like yourself that want to soften the blow to new players to make them feel good about playing. Why? When has gaming turned into protecting players from the hardcore facts of learning a game? That would be like not telling a player in chess how many times they lost a game. Some games take away KD that is fine that is their mechanic for reason. Planetside you can assess through Danan website what you are dealing with KD wise and get an actual idea of how skilled someone is. This holding the players hand is why games are declining and treating people as dumb when they should be able to figure things out on their own is defeating the purpose of a challenge.

    What I am tired of is people suggesting that new players that come to the game "can't" learn the game. I see players asking all the time "is it normal to die this fast?" I am like "yes" everyone in yell chat answers the same "you will die alot". Stop taking away the players ability to learn the game. People who take time to learn the game will stay with the game. This hand holding nonsense and protect new players feelings is stupid, and treating people like they do not know what a game is.

    Do people seriously think when they download this game this is their first game they have every played? Even if it was what percentage is that player base? Almost nonexistent, players playing these games come from other shooters most likely. This game is more hardcore than COD/BF4 and all of these other games that hide your KD to make you "feel" good about yourself. Some real creampuffs around here that think this is the only game a player plays when they download the game. You sir are not thinking on the big picture and this will only kill the game not being able to see their own stats.
  16. Shottawookh

    I am afraid you stuck on foot here mate. The quote was obviously about cavalry. And its pure fact. It's very important for driver/pilot to know some people willing to gun cause randoms are often big pain in the xxx. But it's important to try - I already managed to train some noobs to be proper gunner.
    As about superiority of cavalry against troops - it's of course. It's why cavalry is here. The bad is that cavalry can too often shoot inside point control rooms. That's bad for the game and 1 of reasons people ends up in biolab so often.
  17. Demigan

    I despise your close-mindedness.

    KD is a horror that has afflicted this game. You can still hear people about the beta now and then when KD was introduced. Before KD people would do anything, fight hard and die a hundred times to achieve one little thing without a care. Then after KD suddenly it was important. Why would you go first into the breach when it only hurt your KD? Better run in later so that you can mop up some kills rather than die and you can also see how big a risk it is to you.

    KD doesn't have to be gone, it just needs to be much less prominent. Go watch your KD on the PS2 site for example, or put session-KD somewhere in small print in for example the menu screen rather than the TAB screen.

    KD is worthless in PS2, but it has a legacy for players because it's worth something in other games. But you can change that, by making other statistics more prominent you can make it more important to the players. Do it right and it can easily become more important than the lust for KD.
    Did I say KD was worthless in PS2? I meant it was worse than worthless, it in counterproductive to the gameplay. Players are encouraged not to try new things or break enemy positions, they are encouraged to do only what works, never try something new and use the cheesiest tactic to gather kills, even if it isn't helping their team right now.
    To put it in your chess analogy, imagine if players were encouraged not to win the chess match, but to get as many pawns of the enemy as they can. Don't worry about queens, bishops, rooks or chessmating the king, only capturing pawns. This is what KD is to PS2. Attacking the smallest, weakest and least maneuverable unit in the game with the biggest guns at the cost of everything else.

    Also if you try to judge people by their KD on Dasanfall you have absolutely no idea how this game works. KD is governed by two things: Skill and playstyle where playstyle is 10x more important than skill. Any newb can get a high KD by selecting fights and using a MAX for example, or simply by using a sniper and relocating all the time. Horrible KPM, great KD.
    Compare that to a player who uses vehicles to destroy other vehicles. His KD is naturally going to be lower because his prey is harder to kill. Or a player that actively tries to break chokepoints, kill MAX's and take territory. It is a risk/reward problem except that the reward isn't a better KD but achieving the gameplay goals.
    I don't think you are a good player because you don't know about this, and you probably never ever experienced the problem of killing half a dozen vehicles in one life but the drivers always escaping because you are dealing with the next vehicle. Your KD is crap and people look down their noses at you even though your achievements are a hundred times more impactful and difficult than the MAX who got 6 kills by holding a chokepoint.

    The quote wasn't obviously about vehicles, and as a pure fact there's a bunch of idiots who kick out non-engineers out of the gunner seat and drive 1/2 because they think that they are more powerful that way somehow if they have the option of an Engi entering at some point.
    Non-engineers can be valuable players to have in your gunseat when no engineers are available, and just because someone happened to be something other than an engineer when he sighted an empty seat and he wanted to help you does not mean they aren't veterans or low-skill. It is a giant bias because you might want an engineer but that doesn't mean every non-engineer who enters is a giant noob.

    As for the superiority of "cavalry" against troops: Cavalry is a specialist equipment. You can't put 100% of your army up as cavalry as that will get you killed rather than win everything. There's a reason why even America has 4x more non-tank armored vehicles (and dozens of times more non-armored vehicles) than tanks.
    In real life a tank is a high-value vehicle that holds enormous risks. It needs constant and expensive maintenance, a giant logistics train and facilities to perform those maintenance and it's primary role itsn't rolling around the battlefield and slaughtering everything, but to charge a line, survive long enough to open up a gap and then... Light vehicles and infantry have to push through that gap to actually do anything with it. It's the (mechanized) infantry that pushes through, attacks enemy positions from behind and wreaks havoc on supply lines and not the tanks.
    In PS2 tanks are only worth 5 grenades. Letting them be some kind of superiority complex and groin compensation for noobs who can't even see the value of any class gunner over no gunner at all is ridiculous and ruins gameplay.
    The reason why people go to biolabs is because tanks are simply too powerful for their cost. Or better said, infantry simply lacks to tools to deal with vehicles. A tank firing into a pointroom or just at a doorway is incredibly hard to get rid off, almost impossible even... Unless you C4 it and kill it before it can get away. But that requires you to be unnoticed until you are already on top of the vehicle. Infantry needs solid anti-vehicle weapons besides C4 that can deal with tanks shooting at a doorway if you want infantry to not avoid them or need segregation.
    • Up x 3
  18. MonnyMoony


    I agree, K/D is pretty meaningless outside of an arena death match type scenario - where most else is equal and the number of kills is somewhat related to skill.

    Kills themselves are pretty meaningless in PS2 anyway due to the almost instantaneous respawn. At best all you do is knock a person back to spawn for a few seconds and get a few XP for the trouble. I have seen objectives and even alerts lost because people seem reluctant to harm their K/D.

    There is so much in this game that can artificially elevate or reduce K/D that the metric is essentially meaningless unless you only ever play the same infantry type, in a similar manner, using similar weapons.

    A high K/D doesn't make you a good player and a low K/D doesn't make you a bad one.

    High K/D could mean a CQC god or it could mean a lonewolf sniper who sits above isolated bases sniping people at vehicle terminals or a HESH farmer who sits on a hillside half a mile away farming spawn rooms.

    Low K/D could indicate you have an awesome medic or engineer on your team who focuses on healing, repairs and revives rather than farming cheap kills.
    • Up x 1
  19. Zizoubaba

    Another illustration, from prime time this time :


    [IMG]



    As you can see from the map, NC is pushing Ymir with 48-96 players.

    The only other fight, (proper fight) that NC against VS at Nott.

    Both those points are because NC lost the Amp Station, and it took them a lot of pop to get it back. Once they got it back, they pushed south and south west from it.

    The big zerg that pushed south, pushed to Ymir and won't ever, ever, ever stop, unless another zerg stops them or if they get cut off.

    In fact, if VS were to counter behind them, and get the amp station back, that zerg, which represents basiclly the entire NC population, will keep pushing south, stoping only once they are cut off and literally don't have a choice anymore.

    It's mindless.

    It's pointless.

    It's absolutely not tactical or strategy or anything else.

    It makes me sick, and it's the fault of the devs.
    • Up x 2
  20. Vanguard540

    Most of the time, when this happens on Cobalt, this results in VS being double teammed and its territory didn't matter. It used to be a big cake NC and TR would share while ignoring each other, giving over pop in any VS fight in favor of opponent. Good thing DBG gave a look at this. Now biolab farm will stop and the territories will mean something. And regular balanced fights will happen more.

    On the other hand, I asked about VS being overpowered to high KD players on twitch. Wasn't disappointed. Just a question for VS players :

    How many here use coldheart over assimilate, athlete or battle hardened? That's a complain I saw a lot, I have the implant and the only time it was worth using it, it was as the harasser repair ***** on the rumble seat. Would be a shame if repairing coldheart synergy was a trait given to every faction... wait.

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