Are the VS getting screwed with this Anniversary Pack?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Foxirus, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. Goretzu

    The LPPA is just the best of the bunch, currently, as it functions at AI the best of the bunch. The AH isn't as good at AI, but is ok at AA still so comes in second, the Banshee is currently the worst (having said that it was the best by quite a bit for a long, long time).
    None of the three are particularly good at anything other AI, just the AH has some effectivenss as AA although still less than half of a proper AA ESF gun.

    Ironically the LPPA is probably better than the AH and Banshee because of some of the issues that could make the Lasher overpowered.

    4305 - Light PPA | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 54.84
    4605 - M30 Mustang AH | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 47.13

    4906 - M14 Banshee | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 32.71

    Although again how would you buff the Lasher? Especially given that its current Q4 aKPH is pretty much the same as the MCGs?
  2. Bindlestiff

    Just a quick one. If the Lasher truly was supposed to be a suppress only weapon, why isn't there a suppression ribbon available for dealing splash damage (the way AA damage works)? Why is the directive for the heavy to obtain 1160 Lasher kills, and not 1160 Lasher suppression ribbons (or whatever would make sense)?
    • Up x 1
  3. Foxirus

    I would do ONE of several options:

    Buff its Splash damage range to 6m remaining at 25 damage at that outer limit. (Suppression Buff)
    Buff its Velocity OR fire rate (Head to Head Kill Buff)
    Buff its splash damage to 50 while remaining 3m. (Suppression Buff)
    Decrease the Size of its projectile by 50% and increase its velocity to 300 m/s. (Head to Head Kill Buff)

    I feel either one of these would suffice to even it with the other faction variants.
  4. Nody

    What Lasher need is a buff to it's Light! It should blind our enemies (direct hits) and make them see the Light of Truth! If it's suppose to suppress then let it do exactly that; suppress, blinding effect or emp. effect or something along those lines instead.
  5. Goretzu

    6m? That's bigger than any other fireable projectile AOE in the game, also a 6m range of splash with its RoF and mag size (especially extended) would allow you to suppress 1/2 a base! :eek: DBGs don't seem to want to go that way either as all such weapons have had either their RoF or AOE range (or both) significantly nerfed over the years.

    Also it would be a grief-points machine, used incorrectly, I think (one of the major current complaints).

    Its current Q4 aKPH is already nearly at MCG levels, dispite being relatively poor at 1 on 1, so you buff 1 on 1 without nerfing suppression (on infact buffing it too with either of these changes) - what does the Lasher become? Overpowered.

    It already nearly has the Q4 aKPH of a MCG now, this again would just make it even more powerful at suppression.

    Again making it much more powerful for BOTH 1 on 1 and suppression.

    Even? Much better, I think, boardering on a be all and do all weapon in some cases - as I've said DBG aren't daft enough to do that again, especially not with the same weapon again.

    About the only buff I could see would be a small velocity buff, but I do mean small............ otherwise it has to have its suppressive ability nerfed to be allowed a 1 on 1/direct fire buff.
  6. Goretzu

    It is not a "suppress only weapon" I don't think it is in fact possible to create such a infantry weapon in PS2, that is its niche certainly, but it actually retains a reasonable amount of direct fire "killpower" and whilst it is a mediocre 1 on 1 weapon again it is far from useless 1 on 1, just poor.

    If you look at the Lashers Q4 aKPH it isn't far off the MCGs rate, so it gets kills...... or at least if the Lasher doesn't then an awful lot of other infantry weapons don't either.

    AA damage awards exp for damage because it is actually impossible to get a kill on a sensible pilot, almost all aircraft deaths from AA are due to pilot error effectively.
  7. xMaxdamage

    It just says I used my TR more than my VS character

    yes sorry, my previous post was already long enough lol, btw Lasher is one of the most wrongly underrated weapons, there's a ton of reviews of the gun where it is used like an LMG. always ADS and going for bodyshots and that's how most lasher users play, completely ignoring the weapon's bonuses and going toe o toe against opponents that typically use weapons with half lasher's ttk and 4/5/6 times faster projectiles.

    here's an example (2:25 he says he never hipfire)

    In a "just out of an angle" 1 vs 1 lasher and MCG are very similar weapons, both are good for hipfire (lasher has longer hipfire reach while MCG can shrink down the COF at will by ADSing, and its cone is not affected by movement). With Lasher if you hipfire and aim to the feet of the target you will kill any non-HA in 8-9 bullets, while with MCG you will find yourself with like 20-25 bullets lost. it's pretty much the same TTK, but when you hit people outside VR and everything becames flashing and sparkling you may think the target fills the CoF circle better than what it does in reality, that's why the weapon has bad TTK and wastes so many bullets doing anything, sometimes you get lucky with MCG and those bullets (on which you have 0 control) will hit that portion of the CoF where happens to be your target, sometimes they won't. Lasher is just easier because even if you miss or your CoF blooms bigger than your opponent, you still will do 75 AoE damage in a 2 meters diameter circle, more than enough in a close quarte combat situation. and thanks to a smaller starting hipfire CoF than MCG you can land some bullet to direct hit the target, making the gun more "skill based", while being easier overall. also keep in mind that MCG wastes a lot of bullets on corpses, or during pre-fire spinning, or in all those cases where you die shooting, wasting bullets when you are already dead on the server. the MCG spends a whole lotta more time reloading (less if Ex Mags is on, but still a lot more) because the nature of the gun doesn't let you stay safe running forward with "only" 30 bullets in the mag, which is as much as standard 143 damage tier carbines/AR have (speaking about magazine potential), so more time spent reloading is more chance to be caught doing so and die, when compared to Lasher.

    It's worth noting that MCG has stuff that is clearly intended to kill its effectiveness in CQC or anywhere outside the suppressive -iconic-role of "king of the hill, sprayer of lands" while giving no benefit elsewhere, like the loooong spinning time is a pain in the **** during unexpected 1 on 1 encounters and has no real benefit on suppression (it would if the gun could reach a very high dps in a much longer time) and also, the weapon lacks the ammo and the damage at medium distance (because of fixed CoF) to do actual suppression. how often do you see an MCG firing at a doorway hitting the concrete doing suppression?
    Lasher, while being the best suppression gun hands down, is not "supposed" to be bad in CQC, it has very good hipfire potential and its AoE, coupled with hipfire ADAD spam, compensates more than enough the low dps when compared to MCG (CQC-specialized S/LMGs and shotties are clearly better than both)
  8. Foxirus

    No, I really think you are overestimating the lasher far too much. You keep saying the lasher is "Close to the MCG". No, This is NOT the case. If you look at the Q4 stats, The MCG is close to the Jackhammer, Within 2 in fact, Not 5. Here you are simply choosing stats instead of looking at the big picture, The big picture of nearly two years the lasher has gone without a buff. Since this is the case, You can easily look at ALL the time the lasher has been tracked and easily see its history that its going to fall lower to the MCG and Jackhammer.

    Its really sad how much faction bias is in these counter arguments. People pull the stats, see that its lower and actually try to defend that because it has a 25 damage explosive radius at 3m its okay to be lower. Let me tell you WHY its not okay:

    To use that suppression ability, The high ground is REQUIRED, This is not optional. If you don't have the high ground, 9 times out of 10 you cannot bounce the shot at the floor to get that 3m explosive damage to happen. Shooting the ceiling or wall inside is further than 3m. Even in head to head If you lose the high ground and are shooting up at an opponent, the large size of the projectile not only obscures your vision but also loses its ability to use the explosive radius because you have nothing to bounce the shot off.

    In most situations where you people are trying to defend the lasher being under powered, The suppression ability cannot even be used! How good is the Lasher where its suppression ability can't even be used in a majority of the situations you are in? Thats a pretty damn useless gun if you don't give it a buff in ONE of those areas.

    Its pathetic really, We actually have a person trying to say the stats can't be used in this case because the "Lasher is too unique". Really? Was that the case when they used those stats for getting the Banshee nerfed compared to the PPA and Airhammer? Was that the case when they compared the Phoenix, Striker and Lancer to warrant buffs and nerfs for each one? Was that the case when it came to the MAX AV weapons with the Fractures, Ravens, or Vortex? Every one of these weapons are completely unique from the other. And yet... They still used those stats.

    "Ooooooh you can't have that buff, That weapon has 25 damage tacked on at 3m that is also destroyed by flak armor and doesn't work in 80% of the situations you will find yourself in with the lasher."

    This is basically the stripped down version of all the arguments against buffing the lasher.
  9. orangejedi829

    Lol, thats the best you can do?
    Those things apply to every LMG in the game.
  10. Voodoo Bliss

    Hey vanu, I'd swap my minichaingun for a lasher in a heartbeat!
  11. Foxirus

    Is the best you can do merely 25 damage at 3m? Yours is no different from mine. You said you wanted what makes it the same. I gave you what your argument was worth.
  12. Foxirus

    Please do! Then I can make tea from your tears over losing what you had.
    • Up x 1
  13. Goretzu

    That it hasn't been changed for so long in itself speaks volumes.

    The reality it that it does get kills, that it does actually nearly get as many kills as the MCG does, dispite being better at supprression than the MCG.

    So it clear isn't "useless" which tallies with how much VS use it - which is a LOT, most likely more than the JH is used in fact.
    7533 - T7 Mini-Chaingun | Uniques | Daily Average: 1430.22
    7540 - Lasher X2 | Uniques | Daily Average: 1007.72
    7528 - NC05 Jackhammer | Uniques | Daily Average: 948.51

    I agree it is a tricky weapon to use and you cannot always get the best out of it, but then it is supposed to be that way, because buffing it till it is fool-proof would quite simply ruin the game (for everyone but VS - and again we've been there before with the PS1 Lasher 2.0).

    MAX AV weapons are all the same in role, short range AV and long range AV, although they have different methods of getting there there is no difference in role.

    Heavy Weapons are completely different, the JH is a shotgun which much less effective at range than either of the others.
    The Lasher is a suppressive and support specialist.
    The MCG is a unique LMG.

    This is like the ESRL they all have different roles too.
    Lancer = great AV, poor AA, poor AI
    Striker = good AV, good AA, poor AI
    Pheonix = good AV poor AA, decent AI

    They aren't remotely balanced by KPH, but they are balanced if you take into account AV/AA/AI KPH.

    The Banshee was nerfed because it was outperfoming the LPPA and the AH, currently the LPPA is now outperforming both, personally I'd say the LPPA and AH probably should be nerfed to Banshee levels.
  14. Foxirus

    Technically they are all three in the same class of Anti Infantry. So they are all in the same role as well, That argument wouldn't work so well. As for the fact it hasn't been changed in so long speaking volumes? In what? The fact the VS get neglected the longest before something is fixed? Look at the ZOE. That PoS ability is STILL worthless after two years. It punishes you for using it in every single way. Take increased damage, Must be used within 30m or it actually REDUCES your damage, Only lasts 15 seconds.

    So yeah, It speaks volumes alright. I speaks for how neglected the VS are when it comes to their underpowered tools that need to be fixed. We go the longest with brokenly weak weapons.
  15. orangejedi829

    WTF are you talking about? I explained how the PPA, Airhammer, and Banshee are closely related by listing their commonalities - the set of which is not shared by any weapons outside of their category.
    I asked you to do the same with the Heavy Guns, and you utterly failed. "They all fire rounds." LOL, seriously?
  16. Foxirus

    Yes, You are talking as if the weapons are so different that they cannot be balanced off of each other, But they are entirely the same, You are just reading poorly.

    They all are weapons that are in the AI classification. They are locked to the heavy only class and they are all in the ESHAW area. The only thing you can say to make them seem different is that the lasher has an explosive radius. Take that away? (It can't be used 80% of the time anyways) and its literally just a slower firing MCG. Now that I mention it, The only thing your argument would apply to would be the Jackhammer. Its the only weapon of the 3 ESHAWs that is TRULY different.
  17. Goretzu

    There's no such "weapon type" as "anti infantry"! :D

    Otherwise a PA Shotgun and a Sniper Rifle would both have the same DPS, TTK and range o_O (and they don't just to be clear).

    Even if you ignore the Lasher completely the JH and the MCG aren't the same weapon types.

    ZOE is another good example of why the Lasher is perfectly fine and balanced where it is, you seem to want the Lasher buffed to original ZOE levels and I suspect you're one of those that claimed orginal ZOE was "fine". It wasn't it was totally overpowered, its current state in no way justifies its orginal state of overpoweredness.

    Heavy Weapons are completely different there is no "anti infantry" weapon catagogy (other than everything), the JH is a shotgun which much less effective at range than either of the others.
    The Lasher is a suppressive and support specialist.
    The MCG is a unique LMG.

    This is like the ESRL they all have different roles too.
    Lancer = great AV, poor AA, poor AI
    Striker = good AV, good AA, poor AI
    Pheonix = good AV poor AA, decent AI

    They aren't remotely balanced by KPH, but they are balanced if you take into account AV/AA/AI KPH.

    As you say the JH and Lasher aren't remotely the same (again there is no "anti infantry" weapon type).

    However the MCG and Lasher are also very different.

    The MCG is a unique type of LMG, bigger mag, long sustained fire, but relatively inaccurate, but essentially it does little really that a MSW-R or Carv cannot do.

    The Lasher is the like nothing else, the closest weapon to it is either a PS2 Pounder or a PS1 Thumper (and it is most like a PS1 Thumper even than a PS1 Lasher IMO). If you fight with it like you would have a PS1 Thumper it is even pretty ok at 1 on 1 (I used to love killing people with my PS1 Thumper that thought I was defenceless :) ).
  18. Foxirus

    So you are just going to try and pick up his argument and say its too different to be balanced? Well that is a load of crap if I ever heard it. If you were to take away its explosive ability, The lasher would literally be a reskinned chaingun with a slower velocity. They both have a bigger mag, Long sustained fire, Are relatively inaccurate without controlled fire. I would say it does little other weapons in its class can't do, But the only thing the lasher has going for it is its ability to do mediocre damage around corners within 3m. If you don't have the high ground and a door/wall to shoot around? Every. Single. Weapon. That you could have chosen, Would perform better. Is that the case for the Jackhammer or MCG? Hell no, Even those have some weapons they vastly surpass. The Jackhammer is arguably the best shotgun of all of them outside of the fully automatics and at least the MCG has SOME weapons it surpasses.

    Its funny you seem to think the Lasher would become OP if it was performing the same as the MCG and Jackhammer. What the hell kind of logic says that?

    "Sir... These weapons have exactly the same kill stats.."
    "Yeah, But THAT weapon there.. Is OP."
    "...How? Its kill stats are literally even with the others"
    "Because it just feels OP, You can't use those stats like they use for everything else..."

    There you go, Thats your argument in a nutshell. I'm asking to have it buffed so that it performs the SAME. THE SAME AS THE OTHERS, And yet somehow, Thats OP? HOW?

    "There is no anti infantry weapon type" Best laugh I had all day, Thanks for that.
  19. Goretzu

    No. I am not remotely saying the Lasher is "too different to be balanced".

    I am saying "the Lasher IS balanced" (more or less).

    However it cannot be balanced against the JH because it is a SHOTGUN anymore than it can be balanced against the Phobos - so what is there to complain about? Should the Lasher be killing (in Q4 aKPH) as much as the JH IYO? If so why given that its role and useage is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT?

    And it cannot be balanced against the MCG (even though its Q4 aKPH is already pretty similar - much more so than say the Betel to ANY OTHER LMG) because it is a weird LMG.

    Where as there is nothing else in PS2 like the Lasher, it is its own class of weapon effectively.

    There's simply nothing in the game that can be directly balanced against the Lasher unless they bring in Thumpers (or completely change Lashers to non-suppressive a weapon).
  20. Foxirus

    And again, You are trying to say the Lasher is too different to be balanced against the weapons it was made to compete with. Which are as follows, MCG, and the Jackhammer. Take that argument and try to use it against something in the same situation, Like the ESRLs, Or the MBTs, Or the ESSRs or the MAX abilities. All of them have "minor" differences with one of them being much more different from the rest. Yet, The stats are still used to balance them together. Not you or anyone else (unless its a developer) is going to tell me the stats cannot be used. So you might as well get off that argument. Its not gonna work here because this exact same situation has been allowed to happen in the past.