This part here is key. Think about all the bases in the game. Then think about how many of them have close in cover by the cap point or points. Absolutely beyond 10m or so the TR and VS have the advantage and in an open field it is not a fair fight. However in practice basically all strategic point captures are fought in that 10m or so range. This gives the NC a large boost when attacking or defending. Also any decent NC max knows they wont win in the open that is why the hug corners, stay in buildings and generally use line of sight to force us to approach them. For the most part you either fight on their terms or you just dont fight at all. Then there is the TTK when in optimal range. For an NC Max at 5m basic infantry is insta gib and enemy maxes may last at most 2 seconds. Take a TR max and put them at 15m. Basic infantry are going to take 2 seconds or so to kill HA will take roughly 3 seconds if they use their shield and enemy maxes take roughly 8 seconds. Even in the video it takes 6 seconds and that is against a max that is standing still and just taking it..ie no misses. So we are talking roughly a 3-4 times longer TTK at optimal range. For me that is where the big disconnect is between the 3 maxes. Now I will admit I dont know how I want them to address this. I dont want to see a massive NC nerf, nor do I want them to give all empires the same max weapons. But there does need to be some tweaking to the system, too many key battle locations are fought in close quarters to give 1 empire such a large advantage in that environment.
My suggestion? Increase the RoF of Heavy Cycler MAXes and extend the overall ammo by a bit. Theirs doesn't seem a damage per bullet problem, more of ammount of damage and suppresion problem. At 10m+, they should have a little more damage application in order to compensate their deficiency at close range/point-blank range. We must also consider that the current interations of MAX units aren't finished yet. People are complaining that MAXes murder people at point blank mostly because of Charge. This special ability is, and this has already been hinted by someone before, more sinergic with the NC MAX than with the other two. NC MAX must apply his damage at point blank range to neutralize completely a MAX unit. This is VERY useful for the NC MAX, since he can reach targets at more CQC locations faster and thanks to the speed, without much damage. Once the Riot Shields, Lockdown (WHICH seems to be a perfect thing for a fire support max) and the third Vanu ability (I don't remember which one it was on beta), well see different scenarios. As you said yourself, players play the strenghts and weaknesses of their own units. Good NC MAX units know the chokepoints people WILL have to go through and defend those. People have to find alternative routes in order to counter these MAXes, not straight brawling them face-to-face. A thing people are simply forgetting that the TR MAX has over the NC one. Longer sustained damage. yes, the Burst is huge in NC MAXes, but a TR MAX can fire, and fire, and fire, and fire for WAY much longer, with much less downtime compared to the NC and killing more infantry that the NC MAX in the long run.
3 bases are very well suited to the NC MAX - but for pure killing power, the TR Mercy has it all over the NC MAX on everything but a very CQC with the NC MAX. I suspect that the VS MAX AI weapons aren't that far off the Mercy from what I've seen in video - hopefully we'll see some more video evidence of that shortly. I'll invite you to watch this video if you haven't already seen it. There is absolutely no way I could kill this effectively as an NC MAX with any combination of available and fully certed weapons. Amp Stations and Tech Plants - there are places the NC MAX can excel with Hacksaws, personally I'm not that interested in squatting in a corner of one and waiting for someone to try and overload one of the generators. Those generator rooms are also out in the open, requiring you to traverse open land with overlooking ramparts and roofs that infantry will shread you from before you could make that journey. Once the shields are brought down and infantry/armor comes streaming in, a Hacksaw's lifespan would be measured in seconds. Might take one or two down, maybe before you're turned into swiss cheese. On attack of these sorts of facilities, there are too many angles to cover to limit your exposure, again, unless you want to hide in a room. Other Outposts, only time I take out the Hacksaw there is when we've assaulted something like Crossroads and are trying to contain the enemy who have yet to realise their base is lost from getting too far out of their spawn room (provided I'm not among the Zerg who will try to shoot through you when you're between them and an enemy). I have ~80 hours as a MAX, 8 of those were with Hacksaws and used in very specific areas. Outside of those areas the Hacksaws are a limiting weapon that are easily to defeat. Just don't expect to do it with your own MAX right infront of their face.
I reserve my Charge as a defence ability, never attack. You simply don't know what you're charging into and you can't fire while charging. Any smart attacker would attempt to bait an NC MAX to charge so they and a few of their friends can slaughter it.
In the NC MAX, it's all about situational awereness. I killed a MAX Crash alone today. Out of 6 VS MAXes, 4 I killed with my Dual Grinders. I had died before with them and then knew where they were, and though where they weren't looking. I killed them because they weren't paying attention to me before it was too late, killing 2 then another, then a forth. The Charge ability is a gamble. I can simply destroy people when I have the chance, or I'm destroyed in the process. Most of the time I reserve it for getaways, but I do use it also offensively for great effect, mostly where there's a large corridor to pass and I'll be chewed up by bullets. Ran quickly close and nail the opposition.
who cares if its 0.5 secs at all if thr NC max cant kill anything beyond that range? wait, obivously you care
What a worthless test. I truly cannot comprehend how you think this is effective or practical testing of a weapon system for the purpose of comparison. How many real fights occur on a completely flat and featureless plain, while completely immobile? Zero, that's how many. You should feel embarrassed and ashamed for sharing such an obviously flawed experiment with the world. This 'data' you have gathered is worse than worthless. It actually harms continued discussion on the subject because it presents the outcome of a flawed test as a valuable conclusion. It gives individuals incapable of rational thinking a video to link and point their finger at when someone tries to engage them in discussion. Good job creating a 'NUH-UH!!!!' video for the defenders of the hacksaw. You've truly done this community a great (dis)service.
You sir FAIL completely to understand the purpose of the test, and the real thing about this lack of understanding is because you want to keep believing that NC MAXes razes hell at 30m+, which they don't. We can see that thanks to the total lack of real feedback in order to make the test better, or even better, to realistically criticize the testing method or applications. Probably because you feel that, since all should be the same, you should as well be able to vaporize other MAXes at close range with a VERY small TTK, while firing 2 bullets per time of you Heavy Cyclers. What YOU want sir, is a Heavy Cycler that throws 800 damage per shot with still having the 60 bullets for extra pwnage. And to achieve that, you'll **** over ANYONES assumption without any real lack of evidence to support what YOU are saying. The purpose of this test was to show the REAL effective killing range of the NC MAX when using a double grinder/hacksaw, two of the most used NC Scattercannons, and show that, OUTSIDE HIS EFFECTIVE KILLING RANGE (1~10m), another MAX unit can kill him without any problems, at least showing that NC MAXes have a distinct problem in killing ANYTHING outside their effective range, compared to TR (and now VS, I've made the recordings, video is coming up later, you'll be surprised). The thing YOU fail to understand is that YOUR faction's MAX (and the VS as well) works differently than that of the NCs, and FAILS EVEN MORE when you can realize you don't have the final abilities of all MAX units. You also FAIL to understand that Charge is an ability that scream NC all over it, since the empire specific abilities aren't on the server yet. You must fail as a MAX because, instead of running away (You know, charge away as well), you decided to stay on a NC MAXes face and think you'll blast him away, which YOU WON'T, mostly because you are totally stubborn to even try to shoot at 10m+ at a NC MAXes head (Guess what, your MAX deals 50% more damage in headshots then mine). Why a flat terrain and front faced positions with no moving? Because it is needed to have coefficients that interfere with the aiming/bullet spead/COF minimized so ONLY THE WEAPONS ARE ACTUALLY TESTED AGAINST EACH OTHER, not the players abilities. But obviously you, as the "smartest" player here, though this wasn't relevant, right? Oh, and BTW, thanks to the data on the weapons, aiming/bullet spread/CoF are WORSE on the NC MAX then on the TR MAX when engaging in real combat, so your point was? NC MAXes hug walls and defend chokepoints so they can be the most effective their class allows? YES, THEY DO! Do you try to stay a little farther and hammer NC MAXes when defending biolabs, so he has to go through a lot of infantry while you are hitting him? No, you are not! That's the problem of your statement OP, while NC MAXes KNOW their weaknesses and strenghts, You do not know yours, and blame NC MAXes from being OP. Please learn how you MAX works first, MAKE a video from him fighting at 20M+, and running AWAY from NC MAXes, THEN come here and spill your evidence. Until then, whatever you say is just ********, and therefore, a complete showcase of how much YOU FAIL to understand the game. Fail? (BTW, I'm gonna make the VS video now, gonna put it up soon).
I think it's better to film tests from the Point of View of the guy being shot at when you can't do both. Just saying in case you guys are going to do more videos, this ensures you're not missing anything fishy that is bugs and other technical issues that aren't known by anyone so far. Remember when flak was broken and exploded prematurely, how long it took to find that out? People have to be on be on the lookout for that sort of thing. And also don't forget to spot the dummy to show the remaining health when you're filming from the shooter's POV. No one cares that you as a MAX user thinks knowing the remaining health is irrelevant, the video is supposed to be an informative test of MAX weapons isn't it? You set out to do something like an official benchmark, didn't you?
I don't quite understand this request? When you die and see the MAX that killed you, it displays their health very clearly..? Dead MAX = no health, alive MAX = health on death screen.
The health on the death screen is not always accurate... My 2 cents, theres still nothing VS can really do in a biolab once a bunch of these have been spawned, you just get 1 shotted by people in these camping corners/teleporters/pads, our AI max seems pants in comparison
Hey, just an advice: edit your video and "pixelate" the area of the screen that shows "Headshot" on it. Or people might notice your little trick of shooting the NC max in the head, while he shots you in the torso.
Logged in just to like this post. Very nice demonstration, it really shows the advantages and disadvantages of both MAXes.
Really? Really? What have you contributed to the community outside of trolling someone who took the time to make a video PROVING the advantages & disadvantages of the NC MAX? Please do us all a favor & never post again.
MAX v MAX is interesting as it highlights how the Scat's low capacity hinders it when it cannot kill a target without reload. What I'd like to see is range comparisons for all three vs infantry. We've seen that the NC weapons are fairly pointless at 30m so pull it in to 5, 10, 15, 20 and simulate base ranges. The bigger issue in all of this isn't how fast a Scat can kill another MAX but how fast one Anti Infantry MAX fares against its chosen target vs the others. From what I can tell, this is the sole example in PS2 of same-type weapons functioning in nearly opposite manners (CQ OHK vs "long" range tanked LMG). It doesn't sit well that the TR/VS MAXes do the same damage as a HA while trading away rockets, grenades, vehicles and capturing for a defensive increase while the NC gets a whole new role of close range dominator. The lack of parity is the complaint. And it's not hacksaws, either. They've got a DPS increase, sure, but the shotgun mechanic in general is at fault.
