A MAX is not an infantry man, it is a MAX. That is why all MAXes have timers, cost resources, need to be repaired, and can only got pulled from a terminal. No MAX should be equal to an infantry. That said, fights do not happen in CQC as much as most think they do. CQC is <10m, short range is 10m-30m, med range is 30m-50m, and long range is 50m>. Most rooms in PS2 are more than 10m wide. Give me a moment to find another video of someone running around a bio-lab with his render distance set to 15m. Found it. In that video the poster set his render distance to 15m, what most agree is the NC MAXes top effective range. Without extended mags a NC MAX need to choose if it is worth it to fire at targets at and past that range. Against infantry you can just spam shells and likely get 1-2 kills, but to spam ammo HURTS when you only have about 60 shells total without restocking or certing for more. Having to reload hurts more if you fail to kill everyone. Tto fight MAXes at 15m+ is death for a NC MAX. No question. I gave proof of that within perfect VR conditions, in real battle conditions where player skill, movement, COF, and leading is added effective ranges drop. The majority of my fights happen well outside of 15m. I spend more time fighting over land and in courtyards than indoors because it's vital to keep your enemy from getting inside you bases. Once you let them get close, they are dug in and hard as balls to get out.
^ This Rather than calling the NC Max OP perhaps change your perspective, what exactly should a shotgun be good for if not CQC? AND if you take away all scattercannons/hacksaws (any shotguns for NC Max) for the NC, we would be left with Falcon (AV), Raven (AV), Bursters (AA). The Scatmax excels at what it was designed to do, I know personally I'd love a Mercy or Quasar, or ANYTHING that opens the NC Max up for longer ranges. I have slugs on my Hacksaws just so I could see how "effective" it is outisde CQC, and it is a horrendous let down. NC Maxs have NO alternatives other than shotguns, and i have NO problem with VS getting some awesome laser shotguns or TR getting...shotguns that shoot imperialism? I do think TR and VS should have access to shotguns for their Max classes, but thats a function of SOE development not a response to the NC Max. If you want Scatmaxs on TR and VS, open a petition and I'll sign it. The reason that I do not agree with ScatMax=OP, is plainly that it is something that the other factions do NOT have (which is what I believe to be the real issue), and therefore wish for it be neutralized in some way. I would agree with sharing the shotgun love to the other factions Max class, but nerfing the NC does not lend itself to be a logical next step.
They don't. Those stats you keep posting include all historic data. Just do the maths yourself, divide the total kills with the total hours, and you get their "kill per hour" number.
You ignored me when I suggested that you should try out the Scat MAX for a couple of days. I have used all of the MAXs extensively and I'd take Duel Mercies any day, you don't have the same insight and I won't accept any more baseless QQ from you until you try it them out yourself.
Ok, i will correct you, here's the truth: double mercy: 1775dps double hacksaw: 5601dps 5601/1775: 3.16 You see? It was not an exaggeration cause the true damage difference is even bigger than i said. And just to give you another very true fact: The Mattock with slug ammo is pretty damn accurate and outranges all TR/VS MAX guns except for the Mercy and Blueshift which are slightely better. I will not react to all the other stupid comments of my founded work. The sad point is that you are all wrong and don't want to accept the hard truth. Just to say it very clear to all the NC's who try to make me look like a fool here: My opinion: NC MAX is op Stats: NC MAX is OP Truth: NC MAX is op Your opinion: False, biased, based on imagination and fairy tales.
You should probably include reloads. You should probably do the data for 5m, 10m, 15m. Especially because more combat happens at distances greater than 10m than less than 10m. You see? It was a complete exaggeration. Also, the stats since GU8 have the NC max as the lowest SPM. The difference has only been exacerbated since GU9. Also, this thread was made before they nerfed NC maxes.
You should write down how you come to this numbers, under which curcumstances they apply, how they look at different ranges (0,5,10,15) and for which GU-State they are/were accurate. Links and proves work better than colored letters when substatiate statements, no offense. Mixing weapons during your post doesnt look very well too. You assume 100% Hacksaw-Shells hit their target?
Is that damage per second you're referring to? Because I think it's pretty relevant to note that it's only 5000-something for 2 seconds, whereas your 2000+ per second lasts 5x's as long. I think the tradeoff is pretty balanced, honestly the hackmaxes deserve a faster reload IMO. Slugs have horrible deviation, and are NOTHING compared to Vanu/TR weaponry at medium/long rang.
I have said time after time after time that raw DPS is USELESS. Those numbers account for 100% hit rate for all bullets/pellets and that is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve outside 0m perfect conditions where BOTH shooters are standing perfectly still, aiming for the chest, have perfect control over recoil, and none of the 2 thinks about staying alive at all. Impossible, not improbable, flat out impossible. Also burst DPS is NOT the same as sustained DPS. You want to know how much DPS Hacksaws do in real gameplay where range, COF, pellet spread, and what else may happen? Well I can't tell you with 100%, but can give a base line of what could be the real DPS based of my videos. First let me re-link my Mercy and new Hacksaw videos. Now lets get a few numbers needed. http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/MAX_Anti-Infantry and https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLWc&type=view&gid=12&f=true&colid0=17&filterstr0=MAX (AI)&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250 That is where Im pulling weapon stats. MAX base HP after stock resistances accounted for- 10,000 Mercy stats- Damage - 125 (all ranges) Reload - 2.6, 3 Mag count - 50 Standing COF - 1.75 still, 5 moving RPM - 426 RPS - 7.1 Hacksaw stats- Damage - 134*6 @ 5m, 50*6 @ 18m (looses 6.46 damage per meter after 5m till 18m) Reload - 3.2, 4 Mag count - 6 Standing COF - 2.5 still, 5 moving Pellet spread - 4 RPM - 209 RPS - 3.48 Now that we have the stats, and real in game bullet counts needed to kill at 0m, 10m, and 20m ranges thanks to the videos (I have no idea what the math is to get COF and pellet spread accounted for with added ranges) we can get a hint at the real DPS numbers at those ranges. Mercy v MAX- 0m - 80 bullets. 80 / 7.1 = 11.26 second kill time 80 * 125 = 10,000 damage 10,000 / 11.26 = 888.09 sustained DPS for 11.26 seconds 10m - 76 bullets (random head shots with every test made the number lower. Every test had this) 76 / 7.1 = 10.7 second kill time 76 * 125 = 9,500 damage 9,500 / 10.7 = 887.85 sustained DPS for 10.7 seconds 20m - 107 bullets 107 / 7.1 = 15.07 + 3(reload) = 18.07 second kill time 107 * 125 = 13,375 damage 13,375 / 18.07 = 740.17 sustained DPS for 18.07 seconds Hacksaw v MAX- 0m - 13 shells 13 / 3.48 = 3.73 + 4(reload) = 7.73 second kill time 13 * (135*6) = 10,530 damage 10,530 / 7.73 = 1,362.22 sustained DPS for 3.73 seconds with 4 seconds of zero damage 10m - 19 shells 19 / 3.48 = 5.45 + 4(reload) = 9.45 second kill time 19 * (101.7*6) = 11,593.8 damage 11,593.8 / 9.45 = 1226.86 sustained DPS for 5.45 seconds with 4 seconds of zero damage 20m - 78 shells 78 / 3.48 = 22.41 + (4*6)(reloads) = 46.41 second kill time 78 * (50*6) = 23,400 damage 23,400 / 46.41 = 504.2 sustained DPS for 22.41 seconds with 24 seconds of zero damage There you have it folks. Yes Hacksaws have higher DPS up to 10m and shorter TTKs. But once you get past 10m the tides turn and Mercys become kings by far. There is also the fact that Mercys can deal it's DPS over near the entire TTK while Hacksaws have half of its TTK moments of zero damage being done. That is why I hate shotguns. With groups of infantry in an area, if any MAX fails to kill them all before a reload the MAX MUST run or take heavy damage or death. NC MAXes can only keep it's DPS going for up to 2 seconds at a time (6 shells firing at 3.48 RPS) then must wait 4 whole seconds for the reload. If the NC MAX fails to kill all infantry within those 2 seconds then no more NC MAX without help. Add in the fact that it takes 2 shells to kill just one infantry at 0m and the odds go down for a long lasting Hacksaw MAX. Mercy MAXes can keep its DPS going for the full 15 seconds it takes to empty both mags. 15 seconds of fire time at a DPS of 888-740 from 0m-20m and you can clear groups of infantry. Not squads but groups up to 5 easy, more depending on luck, armor, and support. Don't be tossing numbers at me son and think I wont call you out on them. I may not be all that smart and **** up more than my share of times but I know my ****. The question is. Am I going to get a real debate from you? Or am I going to be ignored again? Getting kinda sick of very few people backing up what they say. This is the internet after all and ******** is the main meal of the day, but at least give a challenge or some kind of fight.
The problem is WHINERS that ruin this game because they cant pick one class and single handedly kill everything in the game. This is why zoe is getting nerfed and why they should just nerf everything into the ******* ground until we can kill all vehicles maxes and air units with a ******* pistol.... just like call of duty. THEN the whiners will be happy with their **** game and all us people who enjoy well thought out strategy and team play will move on.
Crap! I forgot to factor in the fact the both of those weapons are duals. That fact ***** with my DPS numbers thanks to my factoring in reload times based on dual while RPS of single. Give me a moment to redo the maths a bit. edit- Well hell, I can't edit the post now. Im going to have to make another post with the right math.
Still using the stats from the post above. I just need to change a few things to account for dual weapons instead of mixing it up with using both single and dual stats. Sorry about that, Im am an idiot at times. Mercy dual RPS is 14.2 Hacksaw dual RPS is 6.96 Mercy v MAX- 0m - 80 bullets. 80 / 14.2 = 5.63 second kill time 80 * 125 = 10,000 damage 10,000 / 5.63 = 1776.19 sustained DPS for 5.63 seconds 10m - 76 bullets (random head shots with every test made the number lower. Every test had this) 76 / 14.2 = 5.35 second kill time 76 * 125 = 9,500 damage 9,500 / 5.35 = 1775.7 sustained DPS for 5.35 seconds 20m - 107 bullets 107 / 14.2 = 7.53 + 3(reload) = 10.53 second kill time 107 * 125 = 13,375 damage 13,375 / 10.53 = 1270.18 sustained DPS for 10.53 seconds Hacksaw v MAX- 0m - 13 shells 13 / 6.96 = 1.86 + 4(reload) = 5.86 second kill time 13 * (135*6) = 10,530 damage 10,530 / 5.86 = 1,796.92 sustained DPS for 1.86 seconds with 4 seconds of zero damage 10m - 19 shells 19 / 6.96 = 2.72 + 4(reload) = 6.72 second kill time 19 * (101.7*6) = 11,593.8 damage 11,593.8 / 6.72 = 1,725.14 sustained DPS for 2.72 seconds with 4 seconds of zero damage 20m - 78 shells 78 / 6.96 = 11.2 + (4*6)(reloads) = 35.2 second kill time 78 * (50*6) = 23,400 damage 23,400 / 35.2 = 664.77 sustained DPS for 11.2 seconds with 24 seconds of zero damage OK, please let this be right this time. I "think" I use all right stats this time. And I read that under no way according to these stats can a dual Hacksaw MAX beat a dual Mercy MAX. The TTKs just don't say they can and if my math is right (I am an idiot after all) this is kinda messed up. Also the bla bla bla ranting about burst DPS being **** for general us against sustained DPS. No need to retype that again I think. Once more Im sorry for not seeing the error sooner. I would have just edited out the bad data but the edit button for my last post is gone now. Did not know that this site had a time limit for editing, will try to remember that from now on.
That "data" ignores - damage per clip, clip size, reload time, pellet spread. It is in effect utter nonsense. Even at 0m.
Yes, you are right. I did that on purpose because both maxes need less than one magazine to kill each other and so clipsize and reload time is not important in a close range fight as we find it for instant in bio labs. i'm absolutely aware that there are differences on range when the damage falloff kicks in and reload time / accuracy gets more important.
No, they don't. Without extended magazines the Hacksaw, Scattercannon and Mattock cannot kill a MAX within 2 clips (so they need a reload). The Grinder can. With extended magazines it shifts so the NC AI MAX can. However if both AI MAXs have extended magazines AND full kinetic armour the balance then shifts again. So for basic MAXs TR/VS>>>>NC. And for fully upgraded MAXs TR/VS>>>>NC. Only inbetween MAXs do the NC have any advantage an only at 0-5m.
you sir deserve a medal for giving us the stats to silence the idiots calling for nerfs on a weapon that is useless 10m> also i think your stats are correct showing mercies killing quicker than scat INSIDE 10m, as i've played enough NC to be killed by vanu/tr maxes at all ranges, its better now though since we can cover our reload with aegis we can actually survive! once again ty for the stats
I love all the cr@p about NC Maxes being 'useless' outside of 10m (and all the statistics thrown about which can be used to support so many different views). Anyone who actually uses them knows that this isn't true - they're actually fairly decent well over that range, just not compared to how awesome they are within 10m. And yes I do use them myself, and I love 'em! The truth is they aren't OP though - simply very effective at their specific role of murdering stuff in short(ish) range (definitely substantially more effective than TR and VS maxes, apart from ZOE of course). If they were more effective at long range they would most certainly be OP, so it's quite a fine balancing act. That's not to say that NC shouldn't have a more effective longer range option - I think it would be a good idea to tone them down even more at close range, but increase their effective range a little (even if only the Mattock). I do wonder though, that if it came to that, how many NC would really like the change - I suspect not many, and I know I personally wouldn't! I also think that would give TR and VS good grounds for demanding a better short range option. What the hell, go for it and forget faction traits.
if you have slugs and extended mags on dual mattocks (putting you back ALOT of certs) what you end up with is a pair of dice. by that i mean you roll the dice, if you roll 5 or 6 you hit the target! its just firing a shot anywhere in a large cone infront of you and hoping it goes towards the target. yes its not useless because if you fire enough ammo you might kill someone, but its not really a viable ranged choice (you'd get more kills with a different class).
I've played NC MAX for a while before switching to VS and recently did again to test out the shield. If you use slugs you can be somewhat effective at up to 30 meters range but usually that involves standing still to let your cone of fire reset. Slugs are decent, but the low magazine size and long reload just don't stand up against an automatic weapon most of the time. So I wouldn't call NC MAX OP but in some circumstances they have a slight advantage while having a lot of disadvantages when not at optimal range. Personally I'd give all MAX weapons secondary fire modes depending on what kind of ammo they cert into (if we eventually get different ammo certs for MAX suits). For an NC MAX that would mean to have their regular buckshot mode and a slug alternate fire mode. As the NC MAX has three barrels my changes to the shotguns would be as follows: - shooting the gun in buckshot mode unloads all three barrels using up 3 ammo - ammo pool and magazine size increased x3 (so current 6 shot guns will have 18, with buckshot using 3 ammo per shot that's no change form now) - slug alternate fire mode would consume 1 ammo, letting you fire 18 shots in succession but with lower damage than slugs do now - increase bullet velocity and reduce cone of fire bloom on slugs to make them more viable at range Of course this may not be balanced as it would make the NC MAX rather versatile in close and mid to long range combat, so maybe just making the gun behave like above without the switch fire mode would be a good step in making NC MAX more versatile and induce less rage when run into in CQC. Or perhaps make the fire mode switch require a reload or even take double the time of a regular reload to switch ammo types to balance it out.
