PeterJohn wrote: I am not the one claiming the game is unbalanced, because other healers can also keep a group alive. I am not the one claiming the game is unbalanced, unless SOE changes it so that my class is a requirement on raids. You are. And it is so pathetic I am laughing at you. I know raids would continue to succeed if Inquisitors vanished off the face of Norrath. A guild could have 0 Inquisitors, replacing the gaps with other healers in EQ2, and still progress. I know raids would continue to succeed if Wardens vanished off the face of Norrath. A guild could have 0 Wardens, replacing the gaps with other healers in EQ2, and still progress. I know raids would continue to succeed if Furies vanished off the face of Norrath. A guild could have 0 Furies, replacing the gaps with other healers in EQ2, and still progress. I can go on to say the exact same thing for all other healers, and the truth is, it completely destroys the facade some of you have attempted presenting, in a comical attempt to get your class buffed. The only person avoiding anything here, is you trying to avoid the fact you got called out for being a hypocrit, thinking Templars deserve special "need" requirements that no other healer has. And to this, you have no response other than a meager attempt of deflection. Templars can heal all launch DoV raid content. Some of you just need to imrpove.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: I'll take that answer to mean that there are no fights in any raid zone, EM or HM, that a templar can heal that an inquisitor cannot. Now I will explain to you, in simple terms so you understand, why templars are complaining. If a raid leader is looking to fill a healer spot in a raid, the first thing he will look at is whether or not that healer is going to be able to keep his group alive. Inquisitor and Templar, check. Since both Inquisitor and Templar can keep the group alive, what else does each class have to offer that group? Inquisitor will boost the group's DPS. By your own admission, DPS has been important in raids for a very long time. Inquisitors trivialize the curing of that group. No need to have the DPS part of the group have to rely on pots to cure any detrimentals. Templar has nothing else to offer group. Just the healing. So which class do you think the raid leader is going to choose? The choice on paper is obvious. In reality, that is also what is actually happening. This is why templars are being driven out of the raid scene. Now do you understand why templars started this thread?
Ok, there seems to be a carefully weaved lie going on in this thread right now that I am going to point out. Templars provide significantly more real healing power than an Inquisitor. The following statement simply is not true anymore. The reality is that templars were significantly more powerful healers in previous expansions but now in DoV the difference is marginal, granted it is still there. Now to point out what changed. With mobs gaining multi attack, flurry and large amounts of strike through making brawler tanks more popular, all of this made the templar stone skin buff much less useful. Unless they change it to where defensive procs can happen on all physical hits this ability will continue to be marginalized. Another thing that changed with DoV is that we are now seeing fewer stuns, stifles, and interrupts than we have in the past, which removes one of the large benefits templars saw in the past. Personally I have seen this as a good change, as many others have as well. An additional ability that has had its practicality drop quite a bit in DoV is sanctuary. This used to be the go to, fail safe control effect immunity spell, but with DoV the control effects that are causing problems are knock back and no beneficial and no hostile, all of which are not effected by sanctuary at all. Last but not least, templars lost a great deal of their advantage over inquisitors in healing because of the massive amount of gear inflation that has happened in DoV. The heroic AA tree also gave both templars and inquisitors the same defensive tools further increasing the healing balance between the two classes. Also along with the fact that DoV has been detriment heavy and with inquisitors being the strongest curing class, and templars being the weakest curing class, this puts an additional healing burden on a templar that an inquisitor doesn't have. The fact that templars still have a healing advantage over inquisitors is still true, but the lie about it being some large significant difference need to end.
PeterJohn wrote: He knows he has proven nothing and is just grasping at straws, all the while ducking the important questions of which he's been asked several times. What's funny is he's arguing against himself, no one said Templars weren't great healers, no one said Templars couldn't heal the majority of content, who the heck is he arguing against? The crux of his argument, the ONLY point of his argument is that supposedly 3 raid zones are "Templar friendly", although he doesn't define what Templar friendly is and neatly sidesteps that if inquisitors can heal those zones it completely invalidates his argument. Are shamans weaker in these zones? Did they disable brawler strikethrough in these zones? Have they given Templars DPS in those zones? Did they invalidate complete junk like disable smite wrath in that zone? He has been invalidated 10 pages ago, but it's just fun to keep doing it. I don't think he cares anymore about being right, I think he just likes to have the last word.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: No, we don't usually solo heal the MT group, we are not at your level yet unfortunately. I'm sure our shaman could solo heal a lot of the EM encounters, but certainly not the HM ones yet. But you were specifically asking about solo healing the group so I answered. Certainly the shamans have more tools available for group curing, they have a limited 2nd group cure and have their dog so I'd think they would have an easier time, also if I tried to solo heal the 2 big tools in my arsenal repent and stoneskins are kind of weakened with flurries and multiattacks only proccing on the first hit. As for the mobs I mentioned, they are all valid. The issue with Eirreen is she knocks you so far up and back that you have to sprint back to your group and hope everyone sprints back to the same spot then group cure, it's touch and go where an inquisitor can, as someone else put it, trivialize the curing. We've tried alternating respite with holy shield but found that holy shield was only up for every 3rd or 4th detriment and respite for every other, it's very difficult to time them, none of these issues are a problem for our inquisitor, so they get to bypass looking for casting bars, bypass worrying about an aoe avoid, bypass getting knocked back as they can cast in the air while moving, bypass being out of range for curing, etc. As for Mikill I'm not sure which fight you are talking about, but Mikill's group detriment is NOT spaced apart farther then my group cure recast, my reuse is pretty high and that 2nd detriment lands before it's back up.
SpineDoc wrote: Just so you know : Eirreen the Broken's AEs time at around the 40 second mark. Only one of them knocks back on the Easymode (the first one). Your holyshield should have a 40s duration, 45s recast. The reuse timer for Holyshield starts when the spell expires, either naturally, or when terminated (you turn it off). You can have holyshield up for the first pair of AEs, but AS SOON AS the power drain hits, cancel your holyshield (it toggles off). When the next round of AE's is incoming, get an avoid from your enchanter to avoid the knockup, eat the power drain. Holyshield will then be back up for the following round of AEs, allowing you to rinse and repeat. It's easy for the enchanter to "time" the avoid on you. The reality is, they should not have to time it at all. The knockup AE has an incredibly slow cast time, and the casting bar is very easily seen. The enchanter can create a macrobutton that they click when they see the cast bar, to cast the avoid on you even if you are not targetted, and you are covered. Try it out. You may be pleasantly suprised by just how easy it is. You should have an enchanter in your group, and that enchanter should have no issues keeping your power up if only 1 in 2 power drains is hitting you (one drain about every 1.5 minutes is not bad). As for Mikkil, we had a Templar solo heal it in the very early days. He was able to group cure one, the group used potions for the other, and it went really smooth. Don't discredit using cure potions. We keep our guild bank stocked with such at all times, and members actively use them. They can prove very effective.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Yeah, you can do all that stuff. Or, the RL can just say "Begone. Inquisitor." Just like they've been doing for the last 8 months.
Meatwaggon wrote: Unfortunately this is what happened to me. My RL felt instead of relying on so many things that *could* go wrong he just put an inquisitor in my place. It's just basic common sense, why give your raid more risk when you can just take things like curing out of the game?
Avirodar still doesn't get it... If an inquisitor can heal every fight a templar can heal, with less risk due to having 2 group cures, AND add buffs that increase the DPS for the group... THEN WHY USE A TEMPLAR? This is the problem that templars are facing.
PeterJohn wrote: How dare you use logic to derail Avirodar's attempts at derailing this thread...next you'll be using common sense and he cant allow that
Daalilama@Nagafen wrote: A templar can heal every fight an Inq can. Some situations will be easier for the Templar. Some situations will be easier for the Inq. So in short, neither of you make any legitimate point with that statement. You may as well have said "Water is wet!!", while thinking you just discovered the meaning of life. Why use a Templar? Hmm. Why would a tank, especially the main tank, want a cleric with bigger reactives? Or repent? Or damage reduction? Or sanctuary? Or a stoneskin buff? Or a proc booster? Just a glimpse of what Templars offer, and all of it is very effective offerings. Some templars like to think the game should revolve around them. Some Templars believe the game should be littered with encounters that are impossible for other healers to handle. Some templars think they should be the ONLY individual healer class that is required to clear content. Some templars are not very smart.
SpineDoc wrote: If asking an enchanter to avoid a cleric, once every 1.5 minutes, is too much to ask for... The problem is not your class. Whether you like it or not, the simple reality is that SOE has provided very easy, very accessible mechanics for your raid to handle the problems you speak of. If your raid fails to use them, it is your guild at fault, not the Templar class. Terrible player skill has nothing to do with class balance.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Another fail on Avirodar's part. The question was not answered. Try again, Avirodar... If an inquisitor can heal every fight a templar can heal, with less risk due to having 2 group cures, AND add buffs that increase the DPS for the group... THEN WHY USE A TEMPLAR? This is the problem that templars are facing.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: This guy's issue with being sat because he holds the raid back is a PERFECT example of the issue. Sure he can try to coordinate his aoe avoid, making sure to turn it off early, and coordinate with his enchanter to do the same and add several levels of difficulty and coordination to the encounter, or the RL can just put in an inquisitor and TRIVIALIZE the curing and add DPS while he is at it. This is so basic, but the naysayers have NOT addressed this and in fact continue to look quite silly in arguing around and around this. In both HM and EM raiding our guild specifically avoids Templars because they don't bring anything to the raids we are currently doing, they don't bring dps, they STINK at curing, and my inquisitor has most of the defensive tools templars have, divine guidance, shield ally, sacrifice, instant group rez, etc etc. The main things I am missing on my inquisitor is true faith, which is great but it's not up all the time, repent and stoneskins which both only proc on the first hit of multi attacks and flurry, making them not as useful. As an inquisitor I can heal every single encounter in EM/HM. Here is the heart of the problem that HAS NOT BEEN REFUTED, why would a raid choose a healer who effectively healed the same as their counterpart, but brings no dps and no curing to the raid? Discuss this, refute this, argue this, instead of continuing to ignore the main point of this entire thread. Stop arguing stuff that NO ONE is even arguing. You know I was having fun Pwning Avi every single thread he posts, but I'm kind of a little bummed that he is PWNING HIMSELF so he is taking the opportunity away from us. Once again the main point of this entire thread from months and months ago has not been refuted in the least.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Nope, that is NOT the issue at all. The issue is simply choosing an inquisitor bypasses that nonsense. Yes you are absolutely correct "SOE has provided very easy, very accessible mechanics for your raid to handle the problems you speak of.", those mechanics are RAID LEADERS CHOOSING INQUISITORS. No one said Templars couldn't heal the encounters, you keep harping on this AND IT'S NOT THE POINT OF THE THREAD. You completely miss the point of our complaints with every single post you make, of course you really don't "miss" the point of it, you just don't address it because you realize it invalidates your entire argument. Don't insult that Templar who's raid leader sat him out because he didn't want to deal with coordinating aoe blockers, are you so insecure that you have to insult people who post their experiences in the game as feedback? We should instead try to understand why he is being sat, which is exactly what everyone else on here is trying to do, instead of cowardly skirting around the issue just to be the guy who has the last word.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: I'm sorry, but I have to ask, because you seem to think insulting Templars "beneath" your ability is somehow conducive to this discussion. Why do you keep coming back when it's quite obvious you are not going to convince any of us? For me, personally, I've specifically described my difficulties as a Templar and the fact that my raid just decided it's much much easier to just go with inquisitors. I'm an excellent healer, I've healed on this class pretty much since the game went live, I understand most classes and how to interact with them, I understand my strengths and weaknesses, etc. But that still doesn't change the fact that I'm dead weight to my raid force, my HPS barely registers against the shamans HPS, it takes several layers of complexity to deal with group detriments that an inquisitor doesn't have to, and I bring no DPS to myself or the group. These are the things which instead of addressing you just want to insult us, I'm sorry I'm only just starting out in HM raids but as I've mentioned before I pay my sub and have just as much right to feedback what I feel are issues. It's just you seem like quite an onerous person, arguing just simply for the sake of arguing and insulting those who don't share your point of view, which IMO seems quite limited as you don't have any experience as a Templar whatsoever. With all due respect, and I won't devolve into the level of insults as some have done, what do you expect to accomplish on these boards? You've laid out your arguments for the devs to consider, as have the rest of us. With all due respect not a single one of your "suggestions" (I emphasize that because in reality you have had no suggestions) has helped me be a wanted part of my raid force, notice I didn't say "needed". At the end of the day it's only a game, and I play another class that better helps the raid force, but it's not the class I'd rather be playing. It just bums me out to lay out my feedback as a Templar and have someone come back and say I'm a terrible player. The forums should not be this way, state your point, add your feedback and experience, post suggestions on how it may be fixed, then let the devs do their job, or let them ignore it, either way that's all we can do.
SpineDoc wrote: I call it as it is. The purpose of my presence here is simple, to ensure there is another opinion presented, rather than let a handful of Templars attempt to convince themselves / each other / the devs, that the templar class is weak, when it is far from it. You stated that you have played since just off launch, have years worth of experience, and have good class knowledge outside of clerics. You declared yourself an excellent healer. By defintion (of the word excellent), an excellent healer possesses outstanding quality or superior merit, and is remarkably good. You called yourself such. Is it unreasonable of me to expect that a self proclaimed "excellent healer", with years of experience, would know how to make effective use out of holy shield? AE avoiding 1 in 2 knockbacks on EasyMode Eirreen from an excellent cleric, should be a basic ask for any experienced cleric. I will even go provide further example to illustrate the incorrect claims of your previous post, regarding handling the knockups on EasyMode Eirreen. I have a rather new alt illusionist, have not worked on it much at all. It has 3 pieces of easymode armor, the remaining armor is PQ gear, and the jewellery is legendary/fabled from a few heroic instances, except 2 items from two ToFSx2. Yup, it is a ghetto alt. With ZERO reuse adornments, and ungrouped, the reuse on respite (the AE avoid) is 36 seconds. In a group, in a raid, AE avoiding a healer for every single knockup, would be a given. A nice 35m range too, it can cast it from a mile away. You tried to tell me that between your holyshield, and the enchanters avoid, you could not cover the knockups. That is a dismal effort, by you and the enchanter alike. Do not come here trying to claim your class is weak when that is the best you can do. If that offends you, sorry if the truth hurts, but it is the truth, and deserved to be said. Every single launch DoV raid encounter, that has a knockback component, can be easily dealt with by any healer, Templar included. Simple use of zone geometry, and class skills/abilities, allows all healers to trivialize knockups. Templars that believe knockups in launch DoV content somehow add weight to their cause (of getting Templars buffed), are simply making their guild look very sub-par. An Inq can heal it. A Templar can heal it. Templars have bigger heals/reactives, and additional healing tools/wards. Inqs have cures, and DPS buffs. If you do not like the class you play, change. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with Templars, they do exactly what they are made for, and they do it well. Heaven forbid, on a raid, you may need help from someone else, every 1.5 minutes. That is far from unreasonable.
