Avirodar@Oasis wrote: With all due respect you continue to miss the point, or as others have pointed it out continue to ignore it on purpose. I never said I couldn't handle the aoe's, what I said was that my raid decided to forego the risk in handling the aoe in favor of just putting an inquisitor in my spot. Please read carefully thru my posts and make sure you understand what I am saying before you post something that is not relevant. Initially I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, but I can clearly see now that you are being obtuse to the point of twisting my words into things I'm not saying. No one is trying to convice the devs that Templars are a weak class, can't this ever sink in even though we've been screaming this to you for months? You are not discussing the same issue we are discussing, it's incredible that you keep going on and on about something that's not even being discussed. So in the end you can sink to your low level and continue to insult me, but I'm sorry I won't go that route. There is an issue that the devs need to address and that is specifically that the templar is being sat out in raids because there defensive healing is not needed, they can't trivialize curing, and they don't bring dps. Feel free to address any of those issues, because you haven't even touched on them.
Rick777 wrote: Excellent. So you're telling me that everyone is saying Templars can heal the encounters. And they get bigger reactives, and they get repent, and they get a damage reduction, and they get sanctuary, wow, I wonder why anyone would ever want to take a Templar. Why did the Templar in mention get sat? Based on his prior post, I can prepare quite the list of possible reasons. How about you guys start putting character/guild names into the mix, and I could go ask his guild leader.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: My Templar was sat because he was dead weight, the inquisitor we have in there now had enough defensive healing to do all of EM and the beginning of HM we are doing, and he also brought DPS and he trivializes curing so we don't have to worry about it in the least. My templars bigger reactives, repent, damage reduction, and sanctuary did nothing for me because the inquisitor is able to successfully and farily easily handle all the encounters without those tools and at the same time add dps and is able to make cures a non factor in any fight. I don't need your reasons, especially with your lack of Templar experience, I've already stated the reasons a million times. Nothing has changed, today in the present there is still no reason for my guild to play my Templar or any Templar.
SpineDoc wrote: Incorrect. I have pointed out the problem is the way mobs hit tanks, and for how much, is the real issue that needs to be resolved here. Brawlers make for the most glaring example, but it applies for all tanks. When this thread started, it was mostly Templars stomping their feet, screaming for a 2nd group cure, while having absolutely no idea why their class was experiencing a desirability decline. Templars were adamant that future content would be riddled with mass-spammed AEs, and the 2nd group cure was needed or all would lost. Then, progress started being made in Drunder. They were wrong. With the "cure-fest forever more" theory of Templars being discredited, they moved on to act as if it is some great tragedy that there is not a plethora of content which only Templars can heal... A rediculous sense of entitlement (no single healer is required/needed for anything), and a misguided deflection in an attempt to have the class buffed, while doing nothing to address the real issue. After I chimed in to explaining that no particular healer is required for anything, it was begrudingly conceeded as being little more than a "desirability" issue, not a need issue. And you seriously ask why I chime in? I am sticking to my guns on this one. Templar's do not need anything, beside their guilds progressing to Drunder content, and beyond (in due time). SOE needs to make some adjustments to fighters and raid mobs (hit rates, damage amounts) in order to restore more tangible desirability to high powered healing, outside of Drunder HM. If done right, it would also stand to provide some overdue prospects for druids, who have barely had scraps to heal for how long now?
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Come on dude, don't make it so easy to get pwned. Seriously put in a little more effort, it's a textbook play by play pwnage. It's quite obvious that you AGREE that Templars are not desired in raid groups, you also agree with at least a 3rd of the argument of why, which is because their defensive healing is not needed. You don't agree with the cures, but you still cannot refute that inquisitors trivialize curing so that's a moot point because you can't win it, an inquisitor will ALWAYS be more desirable than a templar in a raid group because of this, nothing you can say will argue against this, now add sufficient defensive healing to heal ANY zone and add personal and group DPS. Too easy.
I really don't care that Avirodar is purposely avoiding the issue at hand. At this point, he is being pwned 3-4 times every time he posts anything. He refuses to address the issues. I only hope the developers who read this thread understand where the templar frustration is and ignore the nonsense that Avirodar spouts with every reply. These are the facts. Inquisitors can heal every raid mob that a templar can heal. Inquisitors trivialize cures. Raid leaders like when something that can wipe a raid is trivialized. Inquisitors bring things other than heal ability to the group. Specifically DPS buffs. Raid leaders recognize points 1-3 above, and are replacing templars in raids en masse since expansion. If templars are not able to bring anything to the raid other than healing that is not needed, then they will no longer have positions in raids.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: WRONG again, lol. What you are good at is taking things people say out of context and not reading what they write. I can go back to my own posts and pull out at least half a dozen instances where I SPECIFICALLY say that a 2nd group cure is not THE solution but just merely a single tool to allow Templars a shot at being wanted for raid groups but IT WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM. I've said that so many times and it's right there on the forums for you to read and quote if you wish. There are three (3) main issues Templars have to deal with and curing is only a 3rd of the problem. You only make yourself look desperate when you quote people out of context.
PeterJohn wrote: ^^^ This. I finally shamed our templars into betraying, and even though we lost 2-3 weeks of progression as we regeared them, we're all much happier as a result. And me as the raid leader am much happier for the exact reasons mentioned above. I'm only disapointed it took so many months to shame them into it. SoE rarely fixes class issues like this in a timely matter, particularly when half of the problem is content and mechanics unrelated to class design. Good luck folks, but why you haven't already betrayed (if you haven't and enjoy raiding) is beyond me. ----------------------- Now if you ask me, the very first thing you do to fix templars is nerf the inq buff. The inq is clearly the offensive side of the cleric and having 2 group cures is a DEFENSIVE ability. I'd start by only allowing druids to have more than one group cure so they would be the only healer you would consider for solo healer dps groups. I don't believe either cleric should have 2 group cures. Beyond this, you need to look at how you make defensive abilities of a templar more meaningful. Say a large single target strikethru/damage reduction buff for example. Sure, it is very powerful, but you need a very powerful defensive tool to seperate the class from all the offensive buffing that an inq can do. I can think of other potential changes, but the answer doesn't lie in making templars like inqs, the answer is in adding significant defensive bonuses for running a templar.
Atan@Unrest wrote: QFE. This is an excellent suggestion and would probably balance healers out tremendously as a whole. All they have to do is make the inquisitor's group cure and mythical cure share the same cooldown timer. This way they still get their long range cure that can be cast on the run, just not two group cures. And then people will start using druids in raids more.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, right. So SOE needs to make some adjustments to restore "more tangible desirability to high powered healing" by REVERSING all of the NERFS they've been putting into non-Drunder content these last several months? You seem to be off somewhere in Lalaland thinking they will or should do this or that while this whole time they've been doing the exact opposite. It's almost painful owning you again and again, but perhaps a sustained barrage of backhands from the rest of the posters here will some day sink in. Then again, maybe not. Meanwhile Drunder HM is more templar-friendly, just as you claim. Ever more so, right? This is clearly the devs intent for Drunder HM, right? LOL, complete and utter fail. Here is only the latest Drunder NERF:
PeterJohn wrote: Fresh from the peanut gallery : Fix Templars by bringing Druids into raids to replace Inquisitors! You two are not very smart. Thankfully, neither of you work for SOE.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Another Avirodar post that contributes nothing to the discussion and just insults. How do you, Avirodar, think that overpowered inquisitors be fixed? You seem to worry that raids not wanting to have 4 inquisitors would be a bad thing. Does this mean you prefer to have inquisitors stay overpowered at the expense of all other healer classes?
Rick777 wrote: So now you are saying you were advocating more than a 2nd group cure? The emphasis YOU put on the word ONLY is completely in context. You do know what it means to only advocate one thing, right? Let me know when you work your story out. Rick777 wrote: For your benefit: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/only
PeterJohn wrote: It was an Avirodar post that pointed out how your peanut gallery support of an idea that resolves nothing with Templar concerns, displays your lack of understanding, and resentment toward Inquisitors. Inquisitors are not overpowered, or all Templars would have been delegated to bench warming duties in RoK when the mythical cure was introduced. Instead, Templars were still contently solo healing AE/Detriment intensive encounters (like Latpow's example of XYZ) in SF, and locked in tight for the main tank group. Going forward, Shoukin's Templar (Dahmer) had no issue MT healing all launch DoV content, including Tormax HM, was rock-solid secure in their position, and openly stated Templars do not need a 2nd group cure. The first two responses in thread was from people asking SOE not to listen to the OP. One of them is a long-time and very experienced Templar. Two people who are smart enough to realise that the problem, and solution, has nothing to do with clerics. At this point, the absence of a red name giving support to EasyMode Templars begging for class changes, indicates the Devs are aware that Templars are perfectly fine.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Actually he did finally answer a question! Yay! So inquisitors are not overpowered because they continued to be used in RoK... Hmm the logic there is lacking... The CURRENT expansion is full of templars being delegated to bench warming duties, so you seem to be supporting only the fact that inquisitors were not OP in RoK but are overpowered now. Thanks!!!! The reason templars were still fine in RoK (how many years ago was that?) is that inquisitors have been given many more tools and boosts for healing that make them now nearly equal to templars in being able to keep their groups alive and well. But they still retain everything else they brought to their groups. So now their other buffs and mythical cure really shine. This is why inquisitors are OP. Anyways, as an update to a previous post of mine... I now have a level 90, 250-something aa inquisitor that I am bringing to raids instead of my templar. He is still undergeared, but since he is in the MT group, he gets the benefits of the defiler wards so is surviving just fine. I almost laugh with how easy cures and healing are going. My templar will sit on the bench for now, for the good of the raidforce.
PeterJohn wrote: You should roll a Warden or Fury. You will almost laugh at how easy cures and healing are, when combining TShell with multiple cures, while on EasyMode raids. Not only can druids cure as much as an Inq, they can prevent a whole bunch of AEs from ever hitting, which is even better! It all goes back to the real problem, and the solution to it, which has nothing to do with clerics.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: WOW YOU ARE SO FREAKIN' EASY TO PWN, LOL. Rick777 wrote: Wow dude try harder. You made yourself look EVEN MORE DESPERATE when you first quoted me out of context, then tried to backpedal and it backfired on you. You still haven't refuted any arguments or proven anything at all in 20 pages of posts, LOL.
Meatwaggon wrote: Wow, Meatwaggon that was quite an impressive pwnage. Avi's ENTIRE argument is based on an ambiguous claim that 3 raid zones in the entire game are "templar friendly", of course he doesn't define specifically which encounters are "templar friendly" or why they are "templar friendly" and continuously avoids the complete pwnage of his tiny weak argument by the fact that inquisitors can heal the zones. But SOE nerfing the drunder zones just completely shuts out his argument, now I know he's walking funny after that.
