PeterJohn wrote: RoK : Were Inq's OP? No. Templars were desired? Yes. TSO : Were Inq's OP? No. Templars were desired? Yes. SF : Were Inq's OP? No. Templars were desired? Yes. In the transition from SF to DoV, clerics (Inq+Templar) were given the exact same AAs in the Heroic tree. Neither gained any advantage over the other. Trying to claim otherwise is doomed to face plant. Once again, this explains that clerics are fine, the problem and solution has nothing to do with clerics. You are simply feeling the affects of another issue. You know what the real problem is, tanks and shamans. Putting a band-aid on your leg because you cut your finger, will solve nothing. Fix the real issue.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Thank you for summing this up perfectly. Both clerics were given the SAME defensive tools which allows inquisitors to heal at near the level of Templars, BUT with the addition of trivializing curing and bringing in personal and group dps, neither of which a Templar brings in DOV. You've summed up the issue quite nicely.
Rick777 wrote: So you think that both clerics getting Equilibrium (does NOT keep a tank alive) and Divine Armor (parses like garbage) somehow closes the gap between Templar and Inquisitor healing? LOL The more you talk, the easier you make my job.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Better check your inquisitor handbook, you know the one you never read where it tells you how to heal the drunder zones. Didn't like the several pwnings you had at my hand this last page, yep that's why you ran away from responding, or the last 20 for that matter? Every last one of your arguments has been buried, you just look pitiful now.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: What inquisitors were given is boosted healing in the form of large gains in potency and crit bonus. Templars were given this same boost. This makes both healers better at healing. To the point that either healer is fine at healing. There is no raid encounter that an inquistor cannot heal that a templar can. So what you are left with is Inquisitors that can heal just as well as templars can. But templars have nothing to give their group other than healing, whereas inquisitors give DPS buffs and trivialized cures. Makes perfect sense that templars would be benched due to inquisitors becoming overpowered, as you have said yourself. Avirodar@Oasis wrote: And now that inquisitors are overpowered in this expansion, that is exactly what we have been seeing. Templars being delegated to bench warming duties.
I personally don't want to see the Inquisitor changed in any way, theres abilites the Inquisitor has that defines their class as with the Templar there are abilities that defines their class as well. I just want the Templar to be desirable in DoV raid content.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Avirodurp, your "job" was never easy to begin with, and you've clearly been doing a bangup job here in this thread. Why don't you tell me more about how the devs are making Drunder more templar-friendly? Or the launch zones for that matter? lulz
Avirodar's self-proclaimed job here is to keep the discussion away, as much as possible, from the obvious fact that inquisitors are overpowered. I'm sure he enjoys playing an overpowered class and wants to keep it that way.
Rick777 wrote: You once again avoid responding to the statement and question (above in green). It is the reality you have tried to deflect by citing disbelief of change occuring, but request changes to "fix" templars. A hypocritical approach that is amusing to watch. Clerics do not need to be nerfed, or buffed. No cleric needs new stuff, or should have existing stuff taken away. Why? Because the fact is, the problem has nothing to do with clerics. Both clerics, and druids, are subject to the results of the problem, but are not the cause. You do not solve a problem, by creating another one. And for the record, quoting yourself as you done on the prior page, does not negate the fact your foot ended up in your mouth. You just displayed more of your hypocritical nature.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: On the contrary, your question has been answered SEVERAL times in this thread, please reread all the responses and you will see. The only one deflecting reality is yourself, I see you've abandoned your weak argument about the 3 drunder zones which has been decimated not only by myself, but more recently by SOE themselves, in fact there have been several questions asked to YOU specifically which you have specifically avoided, no doubt in an attempt to keep your foot lodged firmly in your mouth. How's that foot taste? Oh wait let me remind you how that foot tastes: All Drunder x4 raid zones Sullon’s Spire, Tallon’s Stronghold, and Vallon’s Tower: The named boss NPCs do less damage and have slightly lower health. Let's not forget that YOU specifically stated you did NOT run with Templar until very recently, proving the entire point of this thread. The fact of the matter is that you agree with this thread until the 3 drunder zones, but you cannot abide by that argument anymore and you cannot hide from the proof, and at the same time have provided NO proof of your own. Did you feel shamed when in fact you were the one who was shown to look badly? You quoted me out of context and you were proven quite wrong with a plethora of quotes, something in black and white you cannot deny. There was nothing hypocritical in what I was saying in the least and I've provided the proof that I've been consistent all along, try again. At the end of the day all your arguments (actually one) have been proven wrong. You've resorted to name calling, telling Templars they are "lazy" and envious and cannot play their classes, you FAIL to back up your single argument with a single encounter or experience. Seriously dude, are insults and fabrications all you have left? Apparently so.
PeterJohn wrote: He is the Talathon of the healer forums. The best way to argue his points is simply never respond / reply to him. He is so obviously biased and willfully ignorant of the issues within the classes as they relate to current content that it is laughable. But I have to fault those of you that continue to respond to him as all you do is fuel his vitriol. Luckily for you guys, Xelgad isn't a fool and has never demonstrated that he is swayed by these 'class crusaders'. Keep presenting thought out and balanced suggestions, and I'm sure you'll eventually get somewhere, I just wouldn't count on it any time soon.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Healing is becoming easier. Period. This is probably due to the huge potency and crit bonus boosts ever the past few content releases, in addition to certain tank classes taking significantly less damage. Healers have become so powerful that almost any healer can now heal a non-MT group. And healers have become so powerful that any healer, combined with a shaman, can heal the MT group, especially when a raid is using the right type of tank. So here is the problem templars are facing: if any healer can be used, raid leaders are going to choose the healers that provide some other benefit to the group... Templars provide no other benefit to any group they are in. All they are good at is healing. If the raid doesn't need any more healing, then templars will have no spots in raids. Add on top of that the lack of a second group cure, and now a templar is not just a zero benefit, but a detriment to their group compared to healers that have 2 group cures.
PeterJohn wrote: This thread continues to be physically painful to read, I think it makes the Templar participants look just as awful as Avirodar if you continue to 'debate' with him. The above summary from Peter is basically correct, which is why we need to do away with distinctions like 'defensive' or 'offensive' healers because 'offensive' is only going to continue to win from here on out. I don't think Inquisitors are overpowered by nature of their abilities but by nature of their design. If a Mystic and Inquisitor (what we use) can keep the Main Tank up with 0 problems 99.9% of the time and do double/triple DPS (and provide double/triple DPS benefit to the group) there is no point to Defiler / Templar. I really wish SOE would just make classes within a 5-10% distinction at best on the dps/utility/defense they provide, it would definitely make taking one of each much better.
If you think you have proven me wrong, you are sadly mistaken. The changes in the Patch notes do not diminish Templar Desirability against actual challenging content. The changes in Drunder is the natural evolution of raid content, that occurs every expansion. Players of your caliber are usually oblivious to it. The fact you think these patch notes diminish the worth of Templars in EQ2, shows how short sighted you are. The changes help Templar desirability. A mob that smashed your tank before, may now be feasible with a good Templar+Defiler healing. A good Templar+Defiler combo can provide greater healing than an Inq+Mystic combo. If you do not think the mobs in Drunder HM lay the hurt down on a tank, try zoning in. The changes actually open the doors of Drunder HM to more guilds, especially if they have good Templars. It is clear that you think the game should go the route WoW recently taken, and revolve around Easymode players with a sense of entitlement, but are too lazy to invest actual effort to succeed. Look at what good that done Blizzard's playerbase. I know you despise the existance of HM drunder, and clutch at straws with patch notes. But it does nothing to change the fact that Templars are fine, and Drunder has ensured the class is great for the purpose Devs want. Templars being useful on challenging (Drunder HM) content must be a VERY sore point for scrub templars who were praying for a second group cure. My condolences for your frustrations.
Yep I'm guilty of losing my temper, I'm going to chill a bit now and hopefully we can discuss the issues which we need to discuss. If we all agree to ignore the extraneous stuff we can get along and people who are not contributing will just fade away. Some of the issues I see as playing both inquisitor and templar on raids are: 1) Defensive healing is not required, it makes things easier but my inquisitor has most of my templars defensive skills. The templars 2 largest defensive skills, repent and stoneskins have been made less valuable with the plethora of multi attacks and flurries this xpac which only proc on the first hit, this has been made somewhat worse with strikethrough immunity but I'm not advocate either way with that. Defensive healing is what a Templar traditionally has been about, along with HP buffs and stoneskins. 2) Group curing between the clerics is extremely distant. One cleric can pretty much ignore the effects that detriments have on raid encounters, where the other one struggles with curing his group, this is just too large of a gap to ignore. I've suggested before to give Templars the option for better group curing but I'm ok with paying for it, making it an AA heavy choice, probably an end line. Reducing the recast is fine as well, but we need something concrete, not something which procs or has to rely on another class to proc. I also know someone else suggested that only druids have 2 group cures, I know this is radical but it may merit some thought and balance out with their healing which will always be last versus wards and reactives, I have no idea how this would work but it's just brainstorming at this point. 3) The DPS issue. The lines between defensive and offensive have blurred to a great extent in this game, it's most apparent with tanks for example where brawlers are some of the best defensive tanks in the game currently, although it's interesting to note that guardians haven't really increased much in terms of dps but they at least have stoneskins to balance this. In terms of the clerics the inquisitor has for quite some time been increasing in his defensive capabilities to the point where he has no issues healing any zone these days. Conversely the Templar has had no increase in DPS, never has had any group dps potential beyond aegolism, and is still stuck with severaly outdated paradigms such as disable smite wrath. I don't know if I necessarily advocate a homogenizing of the classes and maybe you have melee dps versus spell dps, complete with unique AA's to each cleric, that may be going to far, although as it is now it's a bit distaseful the shared offensive AA's as they show a distinct lack of care for differentiating the 2 classes. I understand this is a tough solution as just like increasing healing and defensive needs may put the inquisitor back to a non desired class, increasing templar dps may do the same as well. To some extent having 2 classes is becoming harder and harder to justify for SOE, but at the same time I'd hate to see us merge classes as that would be boring as well.
luinnil wrote: Your mystic+inq combo keeps the Main Tank up 99.9% of the time? Wow, grats on clearing all the HardMode raids in Sullons + Tallons + Vallons! Awesome! A tank kept up 99.9% of the time with 0 problems would be in a guild clearing all content with absolute ease. So you're either from the best guild in the world that no one knows about, or... You are absolutely clueless. The answer is simple. You're clueless. Grats on making up a number in a horrible attempt to make yourself look smart.
Atan@Unrest wrote: Thanks for the laugh, hehe. I think the best bet here is to forget he exists as he's not adding any value to the discussion. I don't have much experience with an inquisitor other than the one who MT heals for us, but I think a lot of these points are valid, especially as we start to delve into HM raiding. I'm not quite convinced about the 2nd group cure, it would certainly help in solo healing groups which I'm unable to do currently in a typical raid, but I think the Templar has his mainstay in being the MT healer and shouldn't necessarily compete for healing a dps group. I like the suggestions of having stoneskins looked at as one example.
Atan@Unrest wrote: If you responded in relation to me, only to write that, you need to get off your high horse. You're right about one thing, Xelgad is no fool. He likes facts. A fact that brings me comfort, that the lies and misconceptions being woven and spun by EasyMode Templars in this thread, will be given no heed. Grats on being the Ispiderl of the Fighter boards.
luinnil wrote: Yes this is what I'm referring to in terms of defensive and offensive, or rather the increased lack of needing to have a distinction between the 2, great point.
SpineDoc wrote: SpinDoc, try what I did... Roll an inquisitor. It is a refreshing change and gives you some insight into just how good (and overpowered) inquisitors are. What convinced me to ditch the templar was when I was having a discussion with our raid leader... We realized that NONE of the raid mobs that we are still trying to kill are ever limited by lack of being able to keep the MT healed... We are dying due to cure fails, or script fails, or DPS check fails, or other things... Tanks just don't take enough damage to warrant having a templar.
