Veeman said: ↑ “The problem with what you are asking for it that it makes tanks WAY over powered. If I could raid with my Monk or SK in recklessness without worrying about the 50% damage it would put me very high on the parse list. The problem, as you are describing it, is not that there is a flaw with recklessness but the flaw is your tanks. It would be a lot easier for you to replace your tanks then for SoE to spend endless hours on trying to fix recklessness when it doesn't need fixed.” Anytime you change the programming, yes it takes endless hours. You have to make the changes, verify them, check to see if they interfere with any other programing now. What? Did you think a dev could just set down at a console and whip up some changes for you in a few minutes? That isn't even the major point of my argument. But ok it that's what you keyed on. Bottom line, if your tanks refuse to stop using recklessness in inappropriate fights then show them the door. If one of them are your guild leader, look for a new guild. Until your guild can get the healers geared up and/or trained well enough to heal your tanks will in recklessness, then the tanks need stop worrying about dps and start worrying about staying alive.
a tank in reckless isn't a tank. i want the tanks in the raid to TANK. everyone here can spew anything they want but the fact is that reckless removes the players ability to perform their main duty. at the very least remove the 90% hp hit when they change stances and let them stance dance back and forth. this ability, the way it is, makes rading annoying for 21 people and semi fun for 3 people.. as long as they are monk, sk, pally and bruiser.
The point i had in making this thread was to try and come up with several alternatives for the Dev's to use in creating ether changes to the existing Recklessness Stance or integrating it into a larger Stance Change for all tanks. I would be up for either change. I am able to use the existing Recklessness Stance to DPS and Tank some. But i also know what fights I need to "Man Up" and just be Tanking so I can survive the fight and the raid can move on. The point i have, as a RL Architect, my job is to come up with solutions to problems. Some times I have good ideas and their implementation is good... But some of the time the Idea is a good idea and its implementation of the idea is bad, or times the implementation is fine, but the underlying idea is BAD... In the END I need to come up with a good solution to the Problem at hand. I know I dont have all of the ideas and I know that I dont have all of the solutions to all of the problems, but I can recognize the problem and come up with constructive solutions. I believe the problem at hand here is as i stated in my original post... Tanks as a whole have a problem; taking more than 1 for 90% of the raid content and all of group content is absolutely and utterly useless. This is not true for any other arch type in the game. Recklessness did not change anything about this problem. Tanks are harder to keep up if they are just DPSing than a Normal DPS and they can/will not make a significant amount of group and raid content need more than 1 tank. If they made any heroic content require more than 1 tank it would be the hardest zone in the game and everyone would say that you cannot do it unless you are just the right CLASS. If they made EM raiding REQUIRE more than 1 maybe 2 tanks then a lot of easy mode raiding guilds would not be able to function and it would be "GATED". So to address the problem the Dev's came up with the solution of Recklessness Stance. This in my opinion was not a BAD idea, but it has problems in its implementation. I think its problems have been outlined in the last 7 pages and i think a lot of constructive solutions have been proposed. Let’s try to keep the Original Problem in mind and come up with one or more working proposals for the Dev team to use as a solution that WE as a part of the tanking community can like.
Preface/Disclaimer: I don't tank regularly... so, take this with a grain o salt...and I largely agree with the approach. But.. I think EM Raiding can handle more tanks and tank oriented duties because the extra tanks are often perfectly capable, willing, and available. The biggest thing I often see in terms of adding more tanking duties to EM raiding is a lack of frequent, sufficient utility to properly augment them, particularly in terms of threat/hate generation, ability cast/use/reuse speed, and so on. To a lesser extent, adequate healing is a factor at times, but that is often something that is easier to adjust for, perhaps by putting more individual responsibility on healers to solo heal, where it would be preferred for workload/ease and safety, to carry two in particular groups. I think that same situation carries over somewhat to heroic content, too. Some tanks are perfectly capable of running most current wham bam thank you maam content without utility, but it is a major bonus and preferred when it is available. On the other hand, some tanks absolutely need utility, and when its scarce, that's a problem for them. Some of that is a class based concern. Some of it is content dependent. Or a combination of. Aside from radically changing the utility classes to somehow be more popular with the folks that prefer or gravitate towards acting as a more dps-centric class, I feel that giving fighters some lesser, but effective fighter-to-fighter oriented utility would serve them better than a super DPS stance. Plenty of people are willing to DPS. Few are willing to provide utility.
"Tank" isn't a class, it's a group role. Fighters are designed to fulfill the tank role in groups, but there is rarely need for more than one or two tanks. This leads to little desire to bring multiple fighters to a raid. Recklessness addresses the problem by allowing fighters the option to enter a "DPS mode" which removes their ability to tank effectively, while improving their DPS contribution. The modular nature of Recklessness allows a fighter the option to fill the tank or DPS role in any given encounter. Recklessness doesn't remove your ability to perform your main duty. It simply makes you relevant during times when you weren't going to be performing your main duty, anyway.
there are better ways to make the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tank relevant but if tehy must stick this one then tanks need to be able to carry out their MAIN role mid fight or when ever it's necessary, ie. lower inc damage or at the very least remove the stance dance penalty. at first i was upset that select tank classes got easy mode dps but now i'm just sick of the unnecessary wipes and turmoil caused by this terrible ability.
perhaps: change the Incoming damage to +25% normally, and if you are the target of a mob for more this ... lets say 20 seconds you get a 30 second buff that gives you an added +50% damage taken. make it work like Co-op Strike.... i believe i am suggesting this i have Co-op Strike, but it is a decent tool that penalises a tank for tanking to much stuff.
There are ways to make multiple tanks relevant in future content design, but that doesn't help with the existing game. And allowing stance-dancing mid combat would defeat the entire purpose of the ability. It's supposed to allow fighters to choose their role in an encounter, forcing them to accept a compromise of survivability for damage (much like scouts and mages are forced to endure). If fighters could switch mid-combat without penalty, there would be no compromise--they could have whatever they wanted whenever they needed it. Certainly you can understand how unbalanced that would be.
It is more than a role, otherwise, nukers would heal us and stabbers would power-feed when there was occasionally too many of them... Now, to clarify I am not saying what exists is bad, it just doesn't align well with the cause of the problem. I am certainly not suggesting that mages get heals and scouts get significant power pool replenishment tools..
the problem is that it's not just tank that's accepting compromise, it's the entire raid that has to deal with a class that much squishier than the rest of the raid. sure fighters have deathsaves and tools to avoid damage but they aren't always up and things happen. the ability in it's entirety is unbalanced, so what exactly will stance dancing and less inc damage change? nothing. allowing tanks to stance dance would do is give the raid a tank when they need it.
It's not more than a role. Tank, DPS, Utility, all of these are roles that can be filled by multiple classes, to various degrees. Now, certain classes are designed to fill specific roles, like fighters are designed to tank and wizards are designed to nuke, but that doesn't change the definition of the terms. What reckless has done is expand the capabilities of fighters to switch between two different roles, expanding the number of encounters in which multiple fighters can be relevant. This was done because the tank role tends to be too limited. You're not describing a problem with the ability, but rather with the way it is being used by some players. If a raid is struggling because a fighter is consistently dying in recklessness, that player is making a mistake and using the ability incorrectly. If your raid needs a tank, then that fighter shouldn't have been in recklessness. Recklessness is for when you don't need another tank. As for removing the stance-dancing penalty, that would be vastly unbalanced. Do you think scouts should be able to toggle a stance that allows them to sacrifice some of their DPS to suddenly gain the survivability and aggro control of a fighter anytime they feel like it? There is no point in designing an option that includes sacrifices when you can just turn off the drawbacks whenever they become inconvenient.
It certainly isn't because the tank role was too limited. For that I have to disagree. The limited usefulness of 'extra' tanks is largely due to the content not supporting or calling for more tanks. Why didn't the content call for more tanks? Because it was designed that way. Why was it designed that way? Because of a general lack of adequate utility to make fighters effective to perform their role. The lack of adequate utility is because few people gravitate towards those roles, and fewer still are willing to continue with those roles once they have experienced what is expected of them in that type of situation. To a lesser extent the same thing happens with healers. I'll say it again, anyone is willing to dps. Some do it better than others and some enjoy it more than others, but has anyone been known to shy away from filling in as a dps oriented slot? What should have happened, and what may yet still be possible, is to give fighters some fighter-to-fighter utility, to a point which allows them to be generally adequate without both a coercer and a bard. I obviously can't speak for anyone but myself, but I am sure that giving or duplicating to a lesser extent -some- of those kinds of utility responsibilities would not hurt most coercers or dirges feelings. There's plenty of other things they could be doing, without as much emphasis on being the threat/aggression/hate and stoneskins/parry provider to a tank. In fact, it might make those classes slightly less trying for those new to it, which would perhaps allow more utility to become generally available. By not boosting the tanks directly, they would have to still rely on someone else, but instead of necessarily relying on having a 3rd or 4th dirge, they would instead need a 5th or 6th fighter, which given the ideal intents and capabilities of a fighter is not something you would still want to do, but something you could do. In EQ1, there was a /shield command, which gave fighters the opportunity to perform a duration based percentage redirect of damage from the enemy to the primary to target to themselves. That would help alleviate to some degree the necessity of a dirge at all times. IIRC among several of its restrictions were range and reuse, and use of you guessed it, a shield. The second aspect is threat/hate/positional help. It often takes both a coercer and a dirge to do this well. Sometimes less is needed, but by any measure, this is optimal for that purpose. To alleviate this dependency, there should be two new general fighter skills beyond /shield. One should be a persistent, targeted threat sharing. This way both tanks will have to work to gain threat, but the second will have to be mindful to not pull agro if healing and what not is focused on a primary tank target, just as it is now. It would be essentially a way to do additional threat transfer beyond the standard scout threat transfer. It would stack and be effective with scout transfer, but not with other fighter transfer. Call it shenanigans or something. The second part of the threat/agro/positional aspect would be a skill that allowed a fractional positional dump from one fighter to the other. This would alleviate the need of adding yet an additional personal snap to each fighter. It would also have some built in limits, for one, it would be fractional. Two, a cooldown before the second giving fighter could start to move up the hate list again after dumping theirs to the primary. Call it , tag-team unless it's already taken.
that is not the "Right thing to do". it may be a part to a "workable Fix" but i am very sure that everyone would prefer to have the original Problem addressed in a better way. a way that will really Fix the underlying Problem, not just bandage up the problem. Do you have ANY Constructive Ideas to Fix the Original Problem?
i tried that and offered the group buff fix but developers have dug their heels into the ground and refuse to change this ability so now i just want to fix the fail that affects my experience. i can deal with tanks parsing T1 damage but i can't deal with stupid wipes do to this dumb ability. everyone here can say "BLABLAHBLA" don't know when to use it or it's not the abilities fault that the tank died it's the tank adn wahtever other dumb reason you want attach your ignorance to but the fact is that things go wrong when you don't expect it and that use to be ok before this moronic ability. edit. actually i'm even going to make this easier for people to understand. Lets make tanks into dps classes in a balanced way guise~ FACT: you can't turn tanks into a dps class in a balanced way because tank classes doing T1 dps will never be balanced. thus that statement is self-refuting.
Fighters in reckless in a raid are annoying.......first we have the ones that think they have reached the point where they can tank easy stuff......oh the likes of PoW trash, anything not CM in CoE in reckless.......so they do it cause they are cool and all.....all the sudden my Assassin who is usually in said tank group aggro meter is stuck at 90%+ because the tank is tanking in a aggro reduction stance.......the healer is not only working harder to keep selfish tanks **** alive but the rest of us because of the aggro bouncing around..........the mobs turning (due to the other stupid fighters in reckless yanking aggro) and frontal the raid..................the list goes on and on and on. When im not in the MT group........but grouped with a fighter in reckless I do get some joy out of putting hate xfer on him....=P I've looked over countless ZW parse, boss kill times, zone clear times, etc, in the end Reckless really didn't help much besides make those fighters 'feel' good and piss everyone else off. If you want to give 'uneeded' tanks something to make them feel better about taking up a raid slot and getting gear and DKP easily then give them something to do that is not a detriment and annoyance to the rest of us that are in raid doing our designed role. Reckless is without a doubt one the most unneeded, terribly designed horribly implemented things SOE has done. That said ....its not going anywhere.........so I am with Dav......get rid of the penalties since in reality they more a penalty for everyone else besides the fighter.
It sounds like you want the ability removed because the fighters you raid with lack the self-control to do their job rather than stroke their ego via the parse, and your leadership doesn't have the courage to tell them to stop. Your argument has nothing to do with the ability being broken and everything to do with you not being happy with how your fighters choose to employ it. You mention that reckless fighters can't save a raid if things unexpectedly go south. Guess what, that's intended--it's the price a fighter pays for all that extra DPS they're doing. Fighters can't expect to do major DPS whenever they want to without sacrificing their tanking ability, that would be severely unbalanced. The fact that you've experienced raid wipes due to Recklessness being misused actually serves to support it being balanced, not broken. If it was just a straight-up fighter DPS increase with no negative side effects, THAT would be broken. As for the argument, "It's already broken, so why not just break it more?" I refuse to justify that with a rebuttal.
fixed you can't is why you didn't. it is all ready broken and the fighters being dead is NOT FUN for the ENTIRE RAID and that needs to go away. edit. in case you STILL don't get it, THIS isn't about the fighters anymore this is about me, a person who does not play a fighter having less fun because of this dumb ability. 3 poeple in raid have a lil more fun and 21 people are annoyed.. no thanks.
Yeah, I completely understand your argument, and I explained above why it isn't compelling. Strangely enough, games aren't designed around removing options just because somebody is annoyed by their teammates choosing the wrong ones. Player skill is about learning to make the appropriate choices in myriad situations, if you don't like how recklessness is being used in a given situation, tell the offending player that, and maybe it will help them to learn. In any case, it's probably going to be a more effective solution than trying to get an ability removed from 6 classes you don't even play just because you personally don't like it.
