Revisiting Recklessness

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Silzin, Mar 22, 2013.

  1. Silzin Active Member

    I want to revisit recklessness and see what we can come up with as a working tool to accomplish the original problem that recklessness was created to solve.

    - Original Problem - as I understand it – additional Tanks beyond the 1-2 that is needed on most named or trash is dead weight. There are also fights that will require 3-4 tanks that are working together, so raiding guilds need to have them around. This means that around 90% of the time most named and all trash fights will have 2-3 tanks not needed to be tanking and they should be able to bring good dps for this time.

    If my understanding of the Original Problem to be fixed is wrong then everything else in here is going to be off, but this is where I am starting from.

    - Current Recklessness - +100% Pot, +50 Pot, +50% damage taken, -30 hate gain, -50% hate gain, reduces the positions from threat positions that do damage, also if you drop out of it when in combat you are reduced to 5% health.

    Problems that are caused that I see in raid.
    1. Tanks are not taking too much damage for healers to heal on most fights, so tanks can tank most EM fights in Recklessness and survive.
    2. Tanks in Reckless are taking too much damage on some named to stay in reckless and just dps due to AoE’s that other dps survive with no problem.
    3. Tanks can still hold agro without Snaps in Recklessness. Hate Gain is so easy to get with a coercer/dirge/adorns that staying over 50% hate gain in Reckless is easy. Also with hate transfer from Amends/scouts holding hate is easy also.
    4. Crusaders and to a less extent monks get way more out of Recklessness than Warriors/Bruisers do. (I have not raided with a good Zerk/Bruiser recently so I am not sure about them) If guard’s dps is brought up in GU66 then this may fix its self.

    Proposed changes to address the Problems and get back to the original goal
    1. Make all Threat into Damage of some type; also make all positionals into negative positionals with the exception of Rescue and one other. This would, I hope, give a larger boost to warriors; leave enough snaps for the tank to gain agro if just dpsing to pick it up for a sec, but not give enough to do more than that. This would also give all tanks a negative positional for dpsing with.
    2. Reduce the Hate Transferred to the tank by 50% in addition to the – hate above already. This may be enough to reduce the sustained hate for a tank. It may be needed to change the -30 hate gain to -50 or more; not sure, this may make it too easy to not tank.
    3. To address my problems 1 and 2 at the same time… change the +50% all damage taken, into +75% if Direct and +25% if not Direct target of the effect. This one change by its self may fix everything about the tanks tanking in recklessness and tanks holding agro, I am not sure. I think if this is done, changing the reduction of health from 5% to … 50%? would allow the tank that needs to pick up the mob and is in reckless be able to change out of reckless and not know dropping it will probably kill me.

    This is my analyses of the Recklessness ability that tanks get from experience tanking with it and seeing other tanks using it. Others are welcome to give feedback, please stay on topic and stay constructive. Recklessness is here to stay let’s get it into a state that works for all involved, not just something that makes the T1/T2 dps not feel bad about not being on the ball on a fight and betting out dpsed by a reckless tank.
  2. Luhai Active Member

    These are some decent suggestions. The "make all threat into damage" part might be a bit OP, considering some tank classes have some taunts with pretty high threat amounts on it. Even 50% of hate converted into damage would still be nice, I guess.
    At least this would probably help Warriors and Brawlers more than Crusaders.

    Also the +75% damage taken on direct damage could be a bit over the top. There are several nasty effects on raid mobs that would instantly kill a fighter when increased by 75%.
    You know, those "can hit 3 persons every 15 seconds" buffs or random curses.
  3. Silzin Active Member

    I am not sure if 100% or 50% conversion would be best, or even lower, but i think that something should be don to help the non Crusaders.

    I didnt think about those effects, since you are the direct target of the effect and all, that would give you the +75% .... well its just an idea, maybe it can be worded differently.
  4. Davngr Well-Known Member

    it needs to become a group buff so people WANT a tank in their group.

    all the damage taken non-sense needs to go.. if i have a tank in raid i want the tank to .. tank stuff? if the tank is about as sturdy as a scout then the raid don't need him.

    group buff = more damage for the raid and a reason to have the tank there along with this non-sense of T1 dps tanks going away.

    make it like.. 5%-10% raw pot/cb
    no penalties, no nonsense.
  5. Silzin Active Member

    I dont think that this would address the Original Problem. if it was added to the Offensive stance as suggested in other places and add the group wide Pot/CB then Warriors and Crusaders would NEVER have a need to tank outside of the new Ostance. and Brawlers would still need to tank most named in DStance... making the new stance unbalanced for the tanks. If it was just a standalone Group Wide Buff... then it would be silly.

    Additionally the math dose not work out. +10% Pot and CB to 5 other people, may at most add 15-20% damage to them. that is a bard, a chanter, 1-2 healers, and 1-2 pure dps, and the original tank. adding even 20% to them will not be as much Added dps as replacing that tank with a T1 dps.

    So i dont think that the group wide buff would work.
  6. Hert Member

    recklessness was possibly the worst fix for any "problem" in eq.
    that being said, i LOVE it! which tank doesnt like competing with t1 dps? esp while tanking! if a healer can keep a tank alive, why not put out 50-100% more dps!? its made me enjoy dpsing more than actual tanking for the most part. because i can! at endgame, in raids, i can compete with some of the best dps players left in the game. thats without getting any single target buffs! give me bolster, ev, Roa, or jcap and leave me in a pure dps role, and ill probly beat 99% of people playing t1 dps classes. and im a bruiser! that means according to most the people on the forums, id do more if i was a crusader or a monk! thats absurd!

    the drawback is taking 50% more damage and not blocking. i cant speak for all tanks, but in a dps role, this isnt a problem at all. you dont die to aes if you joust like scouts are supposed to. not to mention, you can stoneskin aes, or deathsave them, which scouts cant do. you can parry if you pull agro, which scouts cant do. you can drop agro if you get in a pickle or are pulling too much threat. theres not really a downside here other than the random mob unwardable damage that just 1shots you when you cant prepare for it. but thats life i guess.

    the drawback to tanking in reckless is the 50% more and not being able to block. which means anything without unwardable damage is about the same, as in most EM fights. rather than taking no damage, you take some. maybe. depends how good your shaman is. in hard mode its trickier, but its still doable on most encounters, especially offtanking.

    The real problem with reckless is that it went waaaay over the top. tanks needed to do more damage when not in defensive. offensive to defensive was like a <5% increase in damage, which is basically nothing, at the cost of what? -30 "defense?" oooooooooo. then defensive you gained heavy avoidance and or mit buffs, at the cost of 30 weapon skills or something? in t5 that meant something. when you can get 40 weapon damage on an adorn and have it negate the drawbacks of a full stance, its pretty trivial .

    my suggestion is basicly to just get rid of recklessness, and make offensive stance do something, drawing some ideas from reckless. for instnace, for all tank classes' offensive stance, start with a raw cb/pot buff nothing huge. 10% of current or something max. thats enough to show up, but not go over the top. then, add a drawback thats not going to get people whining about being too wimpy. just like, unable to block, or a huge debuff to block chance, as well as Mitigation. something that doesnt make a crusader in a solo healer mage group die to a fart, but keeps them from main tanking drinal in it, you know? next step is to just get creative with the original stances. for bruisers, we have engulf. a terrible single target proc that does maximum 2% of a solo parse, so 1% in raid. basicly that needs to be like 7-10% so that you actually see it do something. for the ae tanks, like bruisers, zerks, and sks, make it an ae proc or a group ae proc. for the rest, increase the damage and make it a single target proc or debuff or group buff or something like that. thus the creative part!

    basically the goal would be to give tanks a 20-30% increase in damage at the cost of severly imparing their ability to Main tank. it certainly wont be as fun, but it would make a heck of a lot more sense!
  7. Davngr Well-Known Member

    really bro?

    the problem is that you needed 4 tanks for some encounters but most all content did not need 4 tanks so this terrible idea came along and broke more things than it ever fixed.

    that being said.. there is NO WAY that there won't be a tank in any raid/instance group with out a tank if they offer 5-10% BASE pot/cb.. do you even understand how huge of a boos that would be?

    not only would the group do more damage but it's survivability would sky rocket as well.

    also there would be NO negatives.. it would just be an awarded extra buff for all tanks. they could use it in O or D stance with ZERO repercussions.

    that way .. tanks .. well.. they will be able to tank stuff and i wouldn't have to listen to a whiny tank class about how his parse is being messed up by having to tank adds or have to deal with tanks that think they're scouts and end up turning the fregging mob on the raid every 45 secs.
  8. Balbasur Active Member

    i don't play a tank but

    i think it's stupid you take 95% hp damage if you cancel the buff shouldn't be penalized for canceling an effect on your self other then the actual things the buff gave in the first place
  9. Davngr Well-Known Member

    they did that so main tanks wouldn't pull in reckless with temps up and then switch back. like i said earlier.. tanks are there to tank the class is there to hold agro off other classes and they can't do that dead. this ability breaks the game in so many ways it's not even funny.
  10. Duele Active Member

    First of all I want to point out that seeing Fighters rival T1 DPS while tanking is not a new thing at all. For almost as long as I can remember raiding certain Fighters while tanking with the buffs they get from the group could push the top of the parse. Smoky, a Beserker in KoS would tear up parses on AE content for example.

    So what changed is starting in DoV Fighter DPS really started to decline on a parse. All Fighters. To the point where the utility classes and healers could DPS just as much as offensive Fighters.

    Recklessness comes back and pushes Fighter DPS back up.

    Yes it was a stupid fix but not for the reasons people claim. Its because Fighter DPS in general should have been boosted back to the levels it should have been without Recklessness needed. I am sorry but Bards/Chanters should not outparse an Offensive Fighter since Bards/Chanters are there for the massive group DPS they bring and all the utility they have. 90% of the time all the Fighters except one are there to DPS.

    Now bumping Fighter DPS back to the level it should have been in the first place than they should have simply added similar ideas to what people have here. Personally I would just say change the basic groupwide buff that every Fighter has to something useful. On a SK right now the buff is a ridiculously small Lifetap that does almost no damage and doesn't heal anybody. So I would change those group buffs to have a similar component like increasing the groups cb/pot by 10% of their current cb/pot levels. Than I would add a significant component for each Fighter type that is balanced (please stop giving melee buffers to just Brawlers since CM already means every tank group wants them). Again let me stress that these buffs should be something that is an advantage to both scouts and mages despite the Fighter class.
  11. Balbasur Active Member

    still dumb idea to take a 95% hp hit
  12. Malleria Well-Known Member

    Gotta agree with this. There should be no penalties for switching out of reckless, and tbh switching into reckless during combat. They could add a stipulation that you can't enter reckless while you're the target of a mob, so no 'while tanking' switches. But if adds only come once a minute and die in 5sec, why shouldn't the extra tank be able to switch to dps mode for a while before the next wave?
  13. Xaxationlorex New Member

    On the terms of t1 tank dps, I remember, for alot of this game, as a tank being able to push and keep up with "T1" dps classes, it wasn't hard, and I didnt have to rely on to many hate buffs to hold hate. Even discounting shadowknight odessy, its never been hard to keep up on dps. Untill dov, then it was anything to keep up, and it was just a losing battle. Reckless kinda fixes that problem.

    Like I posted in the first big reckless thread, the idea was good, the implementation went horribly wrong. The scale of how we all balanced from it is off, but, not as much as people want to think? Should SK's get the most? Yes, i'd say that if i werent on, and i think zerkers should be with us, we've both been marketed as the offensive tank, we're the damage dealers , guardians shouldn't you had all the tanking tools, no one promised you you'd get to be dps too.

    I get to spend alot of my raid night in reckless, which is doing exactly what its intent is, putting more dps in the raid with out causing swiches. But there are issues.

    Threat is still an issue, i've noticed once I start breaking the 1.1k mark for potency, threat gets alot harder to control, even with PL, because we're STILL producing threat, I can see at times 80-110k threat on the parse, thats alot to tack unto the 800k dps im already doing, and add on peoples threat buffs that still happen, and wizard/lock/assasin transfers, it adds up quick. All threat needs to be removed from abilities straight out. While I would love a direct conversion of threat into damage, adding another 100k to my parse would be alot for what reckless already does, for warriors it would be rather balancing,and i'd aggree to it, but for drusaders, we're fine. [Does grav sac really need to do more damage?]

    Damage taken. :This is the biggest issue I have with the stance, yes we can joust and do all tese fancy tricks, but our margin for error out weighs the gains, 50% is alot more then people take credit for, that 400k attack that could be warded through after restiences, thats now a 600k or so hit that gets you, and if your getting baby sat with heals, its a moot point any ways. All the talk about "While targeted" i think is the best soltion, and ramp it up to 75%, and 25% while not targeted , that ends the dying to random trash aoe's and other junk, and makes tanking in the sance, and aggro control, alot more important.

    I'm a shadow knight and I aprove changing reckless, just none of that group stuff, that's just silly to even consider.
    Silzin likes this.
  14. Silzin Active Member

    Before I chimed back in I wasted to get some more sides of the argument.

    I understand the “Convert it to a group Buff” idea, and a part of me knows it would fix the problem of tanks being wanted in groups and about 80+ % of all groups have tanks anyway so why not get the other 15-20% to want them also? … the Idea just rubs me the wrong way I guess, I cannot place my finger on it, but I don’t think it is for the best health of the game to add.

    About the Idea of “Combine it with the Offensive Stance”. I think this is the BEST LONGTERM solution, but it’s a lot of work. They would need to change and balance the Offensive Stance for 6 for dps/defense/utility and at the same time change and balance the Defensive Stance for the same 6 classes for dps/defense/utility. Each class would need to separate mix of buffs, additions of offensive abilities and reduction of defensive capabilities so that several things can/cannot be preformed.
    1. Can dps in the range specifically desired.
    2. Can tank “easy mobs”
    3. Cannot tank mobs that are “Hard”.
    4. Can chows to not just rip agro if using it to just DPS.
    5. Other class specific stuff that is based on the classes roll.
    The Defensive stance would probably need s similar list, like.
    1. Increase survivability.
    2. Increase Agro Control, not just +Hate Gain.
    3. Maybe increase group survivability?
    4. Other class specific stuff that is based on the classes roll.
    Edit:Note here - the Added Aggro MUST out way the added dps of Offensive Stance.

    Barring this large overhaul of the stances on all tanks, my original ideas and suggestions with others here would probably be the easiest and fastest solution.
  15. Davngr Well-Known Member

    no tank ever, ever, ever came close to out parsing my dps class until this terrible ability "reckless" was put in game.

    yes, tanks outparsed bad players but now this broken ability allows them to parse as high or out parse good players and that's broken, tanks are not suppose to have that much damage potential. further more tanks are SUPPOSE to tank and taking that much damage or any amount of "extra" damage prevents them from tanking anything and again.. that's what they are in RAID for.
  16. Davngr Well-Known Member

    it rubs you the wrong way because you dont' want to lose your broken dragonfire damage and it rubs that SK that posted above you the wrong way because he can't see past not being a warlock in plate anymore.

    don't try to use logic to explain your illogical need to exploit a broken ability.

    tanks will still outparse bad players and lower T2 if reckless is turned into a group buff for added CB/pot as it was before. what happened in SF was that tank gear started to get strikethru instead of MA and other things of that nature.

    making tanks offer greater effectiveness to the group is by far the best option and even works with lore as a group should perform better knowing they have a fighter in their group to boost their confidence.

    also the double potency will become more and more broken as stats increase, the same way that dirge myth did and was eventually fixed.
  17. Hert Member

    if you never had tanks compete on a parse pre dov your tanks weren't good at dpsing or just didnt care. at the end of SF we had a SK MT in defiance and i think i remember one time they gave him UT and he topped the zonewide in wing 1 at least, maybe wing2. and thats not with scrubs in the raid, thats over some of the best casters ive ever been guilded with. In tso, it was about the same. that being said, those zones were full of ae trash and Sk parse fodder like no other, but thats the kind of content that sks have always been able to parse awesome on, and they still should be able to compete on those encounters without needing reckless, but even if you pump out a mil dps on a pile of mobs, the warlock is still doing 4x your dps. that discrepancy started in dov. tanks need a boost to get them back up above the bards and chanters, but i think it needs to happen without recklessness
    Duele and Estred like this.
  18. Daray Well-Known Member

    That's probably the most sensible suggestion in this thread.

    As it is right now, Recklessness has gone a bit far in trying to address the original perceived issues, and even two of the fighters in my guild agree. The dps gained by a reckless tank (for certain classes) is a little on the ridiculous side, and ought to be toned down - or as the suggestion above, scrap Recklessness and re-evaluate all the fighters' offensive stances and make improvements to each on an indivudal class basis.

    If you insist on sticking with Recklessness as a concept, then you probably ought to change potency to crit bonus so that all benefit somewhat equally (yes I know low-levels can't crit, but is that really that important?), and then reduce the amount granted to around 50% of existing without any additional flat value added.
  19. Hoosierdaddy Active Member

    So, if I'm getting this straight, you'd like the extra tanks who are only necessary for a percentage of encounters to sit on their hands and compete with priests on the parse until they are needed? Yeah, you're going to find a whole lot of tanks who enjoy filling that role. o_O

    Guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out when more DPS is ever a bad thing on a raid. And it's not exactly as though guilds are filling dps spots with fighters, so there goes that argument.

    I just can't see ever complaining because someone in my guild is helping us out in an encounter more than I believe he/she should be able. Can you imagine asking your raid leader to drop the two Beastlords in your raid for a warlock, ranger, assassin, swash, brigand, etc. just to make the encounter more challenging?

    For those of you posting in this thread, I'm sure the fighters in your guild would give you all a pat on the back for your sincere interest in their well-being. All I'm sensing is a lot of resentment from players who, it sounds like, are having a difficulty performing their roles as dps, which is only magnified when they are being outparsed by fighters.
    Brienae likes this.
  20. Estred Well-Known Member

    Reckless is the wrong address to the right problem. As it stands classes which have spells notable SK's and Brawlers are benefiting far more than any of the other tank classes. Reckless adds maybe 50K-100K to my parse if I am lucky and for the amount of survival I lose it is not worth it.

    Really they should be addressing the problem with the tanks being out-parsed easially by Chanter/Healer until DoV tanks had always been able to "dps to hold hate" with their hate skills helping. Now we can't hold hate without a Dirge/Coercer for most raidfights. Especially with memwiping/shuffling mobs we need to be at 100% Hate Mod all the time to make up for this problem with tanks.

    Crusaders benefit the potency more than Brawlers who benefit the potency more than Warriors. Potency only effects CA/Spell Damage which if it is low, it stays low.

    1000% of a 2K hit is only 20K while 1000% of a 20K hit is 200K. For my class our hardest (note hardest) hit is 21K. Recklessness really ought to discourage tanking to increase damage. It currently is a "splat me" sign to put on your tank.

    Direct Damage: +100%
    - Keep our ability to block. When we are hit it should hurt if not outright kill us on Raids.

    Indirect Damage: +25%
    - Really if we are focusing DPS we should be no different than a scout, we joust AE's in Reckless.

    Increased Critical Bonus: +25
    Increased Potency: +25
    - Flat buffs to both stats keep things more in line for CA-Tanks versus Auto-Attack-Tanks.

    Increases Potency and Critical Bonus by 50%
    - Then here is the overall damage boost that puts us where we should be.

    Or if they want to save time... increase the base damage of all tanks by 100% while in this stance. Forget all the potency/critical bonus crap.
    - This still leaves normal tank issues though which can be addressed in other threads. This is only about Recklessness.
    Silzin likes this.

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