Acually this is completely wrong since the more potency you have the less its really worth incrementally. Double potency actually scales very well. And you are wrong about prior tank DPS. As a raiding SK since launch tanks have always parsed well except in DoV where everything got all messed up. This was without the need for Recklessness and had to do with focused buffs on the tank. Not to mention certain xpacs seeing certain Fighters boosted more than others like the buckler line for Warriors for example. Its funny that you are so jealous of squishy Fighter DPS that you are consistently campaigning against it. As somebody else said in this thread its not like you are seeing anymore than 3-4 Fighters in a raid EVER. So no loss of spots to the true DPS, who will still DPS the most when it matters.
I'm fairly certain that it was by design that the classes who were supposed to most benefit from Recklessness were the fighter classes who were not ordinarily being selected as main tanks, which is why potency was the stat that Recklessness modified and not critical bonus. The obvious exception to this are brawlers, and especially monks, who are now capable of either main-tanking an encounter or switching to Reckless and topping the parses. What you must accept is that there is an offensive/defensive spectrum between fighter classes that must be balanced and maintained. Guardians are--and pretty much always have been--the premier class for main tanking raids. They have greater survivability than any other fighter class. Conversely, Shadowknights are the least defensive tanks, but have the highest damage potential among fighters (again, excepting Reckless Dragonfire monks). The question I asked for the previous three expansions was: "Who would roll any other fighter class besides a brawler knowing that every other fighter class falls short of brawlers in some area?" Since then, changes have been made in an attempt to bridge the gaping chasm separating fighters, but there definitely remains work to be done. Still, the question is a valid one in this context: "Who would roll a Shadowknight knowing a Guardian was capable of doing just as much damage, but that the Shadowknight would not be able to fulfill the tanking duties of a Guardian?" There has to be some give and take. (Again, unless you're a brawler.)
Agreed, hence the Potency being part of the change still around. The higher DPS tanks still benefit more while the weaker tanks still have some CB because sometimes the 2nd MT is not MTing, yet. The goal is not to make a Guard dps like a SK the goal is to make the gap smaller between Fighters and Chanter/Healer. Even with these changes SK's would still trump Guards DPS in all cases as would Zerks and Brawlers trump Guards... they always have and will.
i'm 100% right about everything i posted and you and other tanks who benefit way too much from this broken ability are using your smoke screen tactics to keep you easymode scrub ability. not tank EVER outparsed or came close to good dps classes until reckless was put in game. no "doubling" of any major stat will ever scale well in any progression game, ever. potency affects some procs just doing double the damage for fighter in reckless further more in future expansions potency will allow fighers to take advantage of way more mod than any other class. sure CA/spell mod isn't an issue now but with coming expansions and reforging it may very well become a problem. if you want to dps on a squishy toon then roll a dps class.. why should you be able to have twice the roles that my dps class has? tanks are there to tank and that's what they should be able to do at any given moment on any given encounter.
Sorry to go against you Estred but on my own guardian, I've been able to hold aggro without any issues since SF. If you can't hold hate without those 2 classes, sorry but you're doing something wrong, especially as a guardian which is prolly the easiest tank to hold aggro with. For memwipe mobs such as Bastion/Oligar, you have Reinforcement/Recapture which are more than enough with only 2 tanks on named.
Recklessness does what it's supposed to do, nothing more. Turns a wasted raid slot into something semi-useful. Also, who cares if someone can tank trivial content in Recklessness? Doesn't matter, at all. This discussion is dumb.
While I do partially agree with you, this is not a dumb discussion. Recklessness is bias towards certain tanks making it glaringly obvious which tanks you want reckless. As I have said in other thread there are 3 "Defensive" tanks which are suited for Single-Target MT roles each just does it differently. - Monks: Stability in Saves and DPS-Buffs - Paladins: Stability in Heals and Heal/Spell Buffs - Guardian: Superior Stability for their group, sacrifice dps. Currently though Reckless breaks this by making Monk/Paladin pretty much better than the Offense-Warrior "Berserker" even if the Zerk is in Reckless himself. I am not saying Nerf-Reckless I am saying re-tune it. The issue lies in % increase, for Warriors is is a significantly lower % increase than it is for Brawlers which is arguably lower than Crusaders. I think in part the discrepancy lies in there being no DPS-Line in the Warrior Tree, all we have is Defense as our DPS lines (STR and WIS) are currently worthless. We aren't talking the DPS between a Guardian and say a Shadowknight... one is a more Defense "MT" Type class and the other is a DPS-OT Class. However there is a problem when the MT-Brawler (Monk) is parsing on-par with the DPS-OT (Brawler/Shadowknight) so I think Reckless needs to be tuned to up DPS more evenly across the classes.
I would argue that Recklessness aside, there are still pretty significant imbalances among the tank classes. Re-balancing Recklessness at this point in the game would be premature, unless you also intend to delve deeper into the class balance issues themselves. Lol, what's a Berserker?
As I said from day1 of recklessness being released is they should have dropped the idea completely and just enhanced BOTH of the stances! Give a reason for tanks to use the defensive stance (increased block/mitigation/hate gain/damage reduction) and tailor each offensive stance to the classes (inability to block, +doublecast +weapon damage bonus +potency / whatever) as long as +s/c/p and +strength is removed from BOTH (and added to to the self buff) tanks will have a choice between two stances. one increases their ability to take damage the other increases their ability to deal it BOTH are tank stances but for obvious reasons using the offensive stance to tank extremely hard mobs is a bad idea.(no block)
-edit changed my mind. I'm curious. Can you please show some parse breakdowns of monks topping parses? I'd like to see em.
Throughout the previous expansion I raided PoW with an off-tanking monk in reckless who consistently topped a million on parses. It was Frappe, and I'm sure anyone who knows him has no doubt about this claim. Mind you, he's probably what most would consider an outlying exception, but it's evidence enough for me to know that Recklessness is just as beneficial to monks as crusaders, when used (in)appropriately.
Thank you all for your input… I am trying to keep this on topic…. So we have heard the opinions of some dps that Recklessness is overpowered and you want the tanks to be more like Bards… just buff ME so I can do more damage…. I guess this is a valid opinion, but I for one do not share this opinion and I hope the Dev’s do not take this opinion. I think that Wizards and Warlocks need to have their damage output looked at then brought up, but that is not for this thread… thank you. Some want to just Fix the existing Recklessness ability. I think this would be the easiest fix. I think that no matter what is done Warriors need to have their damage looked at again. I like most of the suggestions to just Fix the Recklessness that Estred made in Post #20, but I think that keeping the No Blocking is important, since not all tanks have the capability to have Block when in recklessness. I don’t think that +100% when direct is needed, I think +75% would be enough. At +75% most all tanks would be able to hold a named for 10-30 sec’s to allow the MT to get back up and recover agro. Others want to overhaul the tank Stance system. I think this is, in the long run, the Best Solution. But it is going to take a lot of work and would probably need to be a GU ALL to its self. There would also need to be some tank class dps adjustments done outside of the stances, I am still looking at you Warriors. Let’s try to break down class by class what would need to be done to replace the Offensive Stance to bring it close to the Recklessness stance and bring the tank class in dps mode to be viable. I think it needs to include changing 1 or more Snaps into Detaunts for each class.
Add a proc to Recklessness that is similar to the Signet of Betrayal from Shard if Hate: if you are #1 on the hate list, the proc drops you one hate position. Without any snaps to use in Reckless, suddenly tanking gets really annoying and unpredictable. That should dissuade people from trying to tank in Reckless.
The paladin stances are as follow: Defensive + Stamina - C/S/P + Dodge + 15% Mitigation Offensive + Strength + C/S/P/Disruption Recklessness +50% potency +100% potency 50% more incoming damage positionals removed from taunts with damage removed ability to block. Self Buff +Strength +Health As you can see outside the toughest mobs recklnessness is easily useable... and then you'll swap to offensive for rest and only in very rare occasions you swap to defensive. SUGGESTED CHANGES (deleting recklessness!!!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Self Buff + Strength + Health + S/C/P/Disruption Defensive + Stamina + Dodge + 30% Hate Gain + 15% Mitigation + When the Paladin casts a heal they will automatically block the next autoattack within 5s (group heal is group wide) + On a successful block increase Stamina of the group by XX for 30s (stacks multiple times) Offensive + 15 Weapon damage bonus if 2handed weapon equipped + 10% Spell Double attack - 30% hate - On a successful attack increases Potency of the group by XX for 30s (stacks multiple times) - removed ability to block. Very powerful stances yes, but tailored to the paladin class; both have their use... one for progression and hard mobs where having a defensive tank in the group is an asset not a detriment, and the other for farm or easier mobs. Having the most powerful parts of the stances based on charges means you need to "build up" your stance to its max to get the most so you'#ll want to survive and you will NOT want to stance-dance.
My understanding is recklessness was never supposed to be more than a bandaid until they fixed the actual problem. Unfortunately they never fixed the actual problem. There's no doubt it's a stupid ability. Although I dearly love it on my SK for PLing toons while mentoring. Lovely for oneshotting 10+ equal level heroic mobs with a single aoe.
From day one I thought Reckless was a bad solution to the stated problem that was implemented horribly. From what I have seen it really has not solved the problem really.....and has created other problems. Tanks are tanking raids in Reckless without issue.....it is my understanding that that in itself is counter to what its intent was. I fighter tanking raids while also putting out T1 level DPS is broken and OP. They should have made the 'tanking' penalty for being in Reckless much much much greater so noone would ever even consider trying to tank in it. As others have mentioned it is broken in the sense that it is really only a useful stance for 2 ..maybe 3 of the 6 fighter classes. My Guardian doesn't even bother having it on his hotbar because it adds virtually nothing to his already low DPS. It should have never made it off he drawing board in IMO. There were many other ways to give multiple fighters in a raid something meaningful and viable to do when not 'tanking'. SOE took the cheap and easy way out as usual and we got exactly that.
Considering me and Frappe parsed about the same, the difference you are making is in an OT and DPS slot where for 1 he isnt tanking and for 2, shouldnt be topping the parses. If he is topping the parses (seeing as I know Jaderah and Creaper, I highly doubt he topped them), something is wrong with the dps. And Dray, the only tanks that are tanking whole raids in reckless are so over geared for the content anyway that it is not even close to relevant. It's like tanking CoE easy mode with PoW and HM CoE and Avatar gear on. Yea, I can tank it in reckless, but not someone who is tackling the content that is actually in that envelope of gear.
I can tank the same content Jacck has said in Reckless as well, it helps he is my co-tank but we both are way, WAY overgeared for EM-CoE which we do tank in Reckless. However I went Reckless on Amalgamon last night... died almost instantly because the AE was hitting twice as hard even at 15 meter range.
