Focused Fighter Feedback

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Xelgad, Jan 11, 2013.

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  1. Estred Well-Known Member

    Alright, I main a fighter here is my concerted opinions about Recklessness.

    The Classes
    Brawlers: Benefits monks more than bruisers.
    Crusader: Hand down the best DPS buff they ever got.
    Warriors: Does squat for us.

    Issue: It only buffs Potency when 3 tank classes (Zerk, Guard, Bruiser) all benefit more from CB than they do from POT.

    Resolution (in my eyes): Make Reckless ad 25 CB and 25 PoT and increase each by 150%.

    Changelog
    - 50% potency is now 25CB and 25PoT
    - 200% potency is now 150% CB and PoT.

    Alright there is the math. The problem with Recklessness is that it helps some tanks more than others. Monks, Shadowknights and Paladins all get much more out of the Potency than the other tanks. The stance was supposed to an all-around buff to DPS yet the % increase is massive for some tanks and small for others. The trade-off for this Damage is you take more Damage. I feel though that 50% flat is too much because of unblockable AE's as the goal of Reckless was to make non-tanking tanks more suitable for a Raid. As much as I hate to say it, Recklessness should remove your ability to Block/Parry/Ripost/Defelct/Dodge both contested and uncontested. This is because people are tanking in reckless. The only way around this is 100% Avoidance temporary skills.

    Stat changes otherwise.

    - Reckless removes the tanks ability to block completely. Decreases hate-gain by 50% this makes sure that no matter what even if they have +hate adorns they have reduced hate or very little hate. This at least reduces the capacity to tank but does not remove it.
    - Reckless decreases Physical Damage by 15% while active and increases Magical Damage by 25% while active. Since a tank can no longer avoid damage this is to balance that out. Without avoidance a tank takes double damage from physical this is to balance that out but the tank still takes significantly more damage.

    Well... that's my thoughts for Recklessness.
  2. Deathmagus Member

    How in gods name did you cap your haste and dps mod? Did you go over 2k? If you mean pass the soft caps sure.. but you didn't go past a hard cap.

    Zerkers don't need a hate siphon... in fact if anything I would not want a hate siphon most of the time.


    Open wounds grants haste and thus flurry if your haste is >200... I also like the pulsing blue that it has. It will still pulse the dmg while you are under CC effects.


    Again... I highly doubt you're hitting a hard cap on MA. Although outside of the 5% ability reuse for the raid this buff is lacking.


    Again.. I want to state that the power drain on Adrenaline does not need to be nerfed.. people either need to find better chanters or wear power proc gear if they are having issues. I eat every DT on Commanders and do not have an issue with power 99% of the time.. and when I do I use a tinkered power item, a signet, a crafted pot, or rub on my quested manastone.




    It's really doesn't have to be changed to absorb all dmg,.. But if it is please DO NOT LOWER THE DMG TO TRIGGER THRESHOLD.
  3. Deathmagus Member

    How did you hit the hard cap on these stats? Because I honestly don't think you did.

    I would rather have an immunity proc on the ability since it might be more fair.. but still likely not needed and possibly OP.

    I'd be happy with a group wide dmg proc on that buff.

    Chance the enhancement in the Berserker tree to do one or both of these things and I'll put the points there.. I promise.

    I don't know how many times or ways I can say this.. but removing the pwr drain is not needed. People need to either find better pwr regen or wear pwr proc gear.

    Not needed so long as you set up timers and are not lagging terribly.

    The extra trigger might be nice, but once you have the cloak it is not needed. If you reduce the threshold to 10% of max hp then it will be triggered from things that you don't need it to absorb and actually will be a detriment. Trust me... I might just know what I'm talking about on this one. Also, as far as having it absorb all dmg types would be nice, but is not needed.
  4. Deathmagus Member

    Isn't the easiest solution for this to not put amends on the BL and then tell the MT to man up if they can't hold hate off of the dps?
  5. Estred Well-Known Member

    Yeah that is why the Guardian's stoneskins aren't OP their Thresholds are 5% and 10% respectively we have to VERY carefully time our skins or else they are rendered useless. Adrenlaine does not need the Power Reduced the issue comes from the fact that the heal is reactive thus if you are killed in 1 shot the heal is worthless. I didn't have much else to chime in on right there so I haven't :D
  6. Boli Active Member

    Amends Macro FTW I toggle it on when I need the hate and off when I do not; which is why I prefer Beastlords and Rangers more as Amends Targets; as I can control when I get their hate and when I do not.



    Speaking of transfers: Agro transfers are so capped beyond belief in raids these days sadly.

    46% Beastlord > Paladin
    12% Warlock > Paladin
    22% Coercer > Paladin

    = 80% so it rounds down to

    28% Amends
    8% Warlock
    14% Coercer

    If the Warlock was "not the best DPSer" (e.g. a real bad player) and the coercer was too busy doing something else you can effectively reduce the amends by half. Given the Paladin in this example only has control over one of the buffs (Amends) you have to cross-coordinate buffs across the raid.. and if the others were feeling particularly vindictive you can easily reduce transfers out of spite.

    I'm not saying amends or transfers in general are a bad thing... but they have been overused and do need looking at. One particular example is the swashbuckler/Assassin. If they are in a group with a tank they instantly cast it on the tank to reduce their own agro... even if the tank themselves does not want/need the hate.

    There should be "transfer alternatives/options"

    e.g. if an warlock / assassin / coercer / swashbuckler transfers hate onto someone else it acts as normal... but if they cast it on themselves they have a chance to proc an AoE positional dehate 2.2 /min or something. And Amends/shoulder the burden cast on themselves reduces hate gain by say 20%.

    So transfers are not necessarily cast on the tanks all the time... it gets tiresome trying to sort out who is transferring to whom; there isn't exactly a separate window detailing all the transfers.
    Cyrde likes this.
  7. Ymarik Member

    It should only be castable in combat if it is reduced to one trigger maximum ever.

    Ymarik
  8. Boli Active Member

    OR... maybe you can cast it in combat but it only gives 1 trigger, casting it outside of combat gives 3(?) triggers.

    That way SK's can put this into their rotation
  9. Estred Well-Known Member

    Ya know, that makes it identical to the Paladin one. There has to be a difference if BL is to keep the "harm my allies" aspect. 2 Triggers and In-combat use is fine. If the recast is 5 minutes.

    Interesting idea, would be one of the very few skills that have "in combat" versus out of combat effects. I still stand by my idea for Unyielding Will since that DI actually forces the tank using it to spend AA in a specific location. This would be a decent idea for BL and addresses the issue I think Ymarik was getting at.
  10. Cyrde Member

    With those new hate-shuffle mobs, Paladins need another reliable snap-tool. Or nake Amends castable raidwide.

    Change Crusade buff into something useful, WIS was once a major stat for Paladins, but thats long gone now.

    Remove the "on each successful dispel" hook on Aura of the Crusader for the triggered immunity effect - too many uncureable effects in game already.

    Rework Combat Leadership AA. Its absolutely useless right now. (and you have to take it it advance in this tree)

    Rework Higher Ground AA. Its almost useles in its current state. (and you have to take it to advance in this tree)

    Increase range for joust to at least 20m.

    Increase resetting chance on Holy Knights Conviction prestige to at least 15%. 3% chance is almost never resetting at all.

    Increase resetting chance on Holy alacrity prestige to at least 20%.

    Give Paladins an AA or prestige choice to increase hate amounts on rescue. Paladins seriously lack on snap tools and sustained aggro is extremly lowered due to new scripts and transfer-cap.

    Give all Fighter an AA ability to remove negative effects on their def stances.
  11. Ymarik Member

    If I could make any change I wanted to paladins, I would:
    1. Ditch Arch Healing. It's underwhelming. Another heal that I can use on the mob when it charms me? Ugg, no thanks. As it is, I have to waste good emergency buttons when there's a risk that I might be charmed. Please give me another, meaningful AA line instead. It could do one of many things: give me a chance to resist being mem-wiped or allow me to resist death for a few seconds (similar to the Bristlebane miracle) or give me some additional negative health or give me some additional damage reduction or it could let me spec into a new raidwide buff or it could allow me to mitigate power drains or it could make me immune to taunts and target locks or maybe it could give me some knockback immunity.... Of all these ideas, I like resisting mem wipes or mitigating power drains the best. Both of those would be pretty unique class features, and both of them would get me to consider taking that AA ability.
    2. Ditch the "heal if intercept expires" AA line. If the intercept expires without being triggered, the person who received the intercept does not need to be healed because they have taken no damage.
    3. Add a snap: Mem wiping is a horrible, horrible thing for a paladin to face, and a group of mem wipers solo tanked by a paladin is almost a guaranteed group wipe. On a full mem wipe snaps and DPS and even Sigil of Heroism combined may not get me agro back. Paladins seriously need another good, reliable snap, preferably something with some range on it. Single target would be fine, with range of 15m or so. It should be an AA line that's exclusive to paladins, simply because most other tanks just don't need another snap. How about replacing that intercept AA with it, and maybe allow it to affect a second mob in the encounter at the fifth AA....
    4. Modify Crusade to also add a raidwide stamina buff. This could be added to the Enhance: Crusade AA line to tempt us into actually spending AA on that line.
    5. Replace the myth clicky pet: It won't go around corners for pulling even if I have the target, it dies when someone farts two rooms over, and when it does manage to survive it consistently parses ZERO DPS and HPS. So, it's nearly useless for pulling and it's absolutely useless for it's stated purpose. My choice to replace it would be a myth clicky encounter target lock with a respectable but balanced reuse and a short duration. The templar myth clicky has reuse of 2.5 minutes, which seems pretty reasonable.
    6. I would like for Divine Favor to notify my group for me in combat chat when it triggers. This would be one less thing that has to be communicated to my healers through vent in raid, making more room for other communications in the chaos.
    7. With the size of mobs seemingly growing forever, Amends needs a slightly longer range. When I have to recast it in combat, the target has to basically be standing inside really big mobs and taking frontals as a result. This isn't really ideal and about 1/3 of the time the target dies shortly after I get the spell back onto my "transfer". Coordinating AoE blockers just to get my transfer back is a horrible need in a chaotic fight.
    8. There were a number of abilities in Skyshrine content that were fear affects that affected crusaders who were supposed to be immune to fear (for example, the adds on the last fight in heroic UD). I haven't seen this yet in CoE content yet, perhaps because the sin was not repeated but more likely because I stopped using fear spec. Regardless, when I was supposed to be immune to fear and I got some incurable det on me that is named "Fear of...", I got the sense that quality control isn't what it should be. Maybe this is a pet peeve of mine, but I'll wager other folks feel that "immune to fear" should mean exactly that.
    Regarding some things other folks have said:
    1. As for using my heals on the mob when I'm charmed, it's annoying but it's also funny!
    2. I like the idea of ditching penalties for being in offensive/defensive stance, and I like the idea of adding some stun/stifle immunity chance to the defensive stance.
    3. I also think that serious DPS output should not be required for tanks to hold agro. Threat should count for more.
    4. Boli is correct that if a green adorn levels only when damage is taken that it should take into account warded damage. When my shiverback king adorn finally hits level 10 it will be awesome. At the rate it's currently going, that will be like two expacs from now.
    5. I like Boli's suggestion of increasing the range for Rescue and Sneering Assault. Rescue seriously needs some work -- a level 25 CA vs level 100+ raid mobs is going to be resisted a lot. Rescue should get upgraded -- Rescue II, III, etc. It would be easier to just make it unresistable. Sneering Assault is an AA line and not a CA, so it also should not be resistable.
    6. Boli is also correct that mob pathing and knockback need to be looked at. When I kick a mob, it goes two feet. When a mob kicks me, I go 50m even if I'm the same size as the mob! And having to turn a mob into a raid to reposition it sucks.
    And finally, some general annoyances:
    1. Why can't I reforge into block chance?
    2. Why can't I reforge a shield to more protection?
    3. What's with some shields not taking +block adorns?
    Thanks for your consideration Xelgad.

    Ymarik
    Cyrde likes this.
  12. Boli Active Member

    If you are taking only two things from this entire thread I hope it'll be these two items:

    Memshuffle mobs rely too much on dumb luck; this is not only infuriating but makes encounters dependent on factors not under anyone's control. In fact any effect where you can do it flawlessly but every once in a while a charm or a memshuffle happens to just the wrong person/people and BAMN... wipe, reset.

    That mechanic is by far the most infuriating one ever devised. Mem-wipes you could deal with... mem-blurs adjust to and deal with; even Early DoV Co-operative strike from mobs not even yet rendered could be dealt with; memshuffle has tanks clawing out their own eyes just in hope that they'll be shuffled high enough up the hate list not to wipe the raid.

    -=-=-=-=-=-

    Secondly : *everyone* is saying the same thing... crusader's lack in snaps even the other tank classes who normally jealously guard their own abilities are saying it. The fact is tanks need to work TOGETHER in order to defeat encounters... and crusaders simply cannot pull their weight in any memwiping/shuffling mobs. If ALL tanks are saying something you had better believe it is true.
    And whatever problems Shadowknight's have Paladin's have it a *lot* worse (I worked it out last night that a berserker can cast all their snaps for 21 positions, A Paladin can do the same for... 7. (in total, if Sneering doesn't miss).
    Cyrde likes this.
  13. Cyrde Member

    I mean hate positions of course.
  14. Netty Member

    Agreed. I hate those mobs. It would be easier if you had Reinforcemnt mantisleap typ of abilitys since sometimes you get changed with someone that are close to 0 on the hate list... Sometimes you get change burn off 3 snap aggro to get it back then you get swaped again. Zerks can get pretty high on snap aggro. And are the 4th best tank for snap aggro. I wouldent really want to play a crusader on those mobs tbh... Since i know what a freaking pain it is for a none crusader. If we dont have the tools to counter bad mechanics like this just dont put them in... Not all raids are running with brawlers and guardians only. And tbh i think even them might have abit problem with this. I dont mind having to work for stuff and doing hard encounters... But that is not hard its just luck... And when mobs have a nasty frontal like they do you dont really have much time to get it back.

    I find it funny tho that you compare snap aggro with a berserk and not a guard/brawler.
  15. Boli Active Member

    Our Berserker was mentioning how many positions he had if he cast everything all at once; anyways a guard/brawler is subjective due to Mantis Leap / Reinforcement as that can be proced multiple times.
  16. Estred Well-Known Member

    What if they made Sigil of Heroism a new AE-Snap in addition to its effect? Enhancing Rescue is a big thing for specifically Guardians as is reverse-mem wiping (Recapture is a very unique part of being a Guardian) as is Reinforcement neither of which I want to see given to another tank as that breaks down class diversity.

    I feel that paladins need a new snap and I feel instead of duplicating a Monk (Mantis Leap) or Guardian (Recapture/Enhance Rescue) ability giving Paladins a new AE-Snap would be a grand thing considering they are an AE tank. Though ultimately by design a Berserker should have the best AE-Hate/dps of the tanks.

    Crusade(Changed)
    Radius: 15m
    Duration: 8 seconds.
    Effects for duration.
    Recast: 5 Minutes

    - Increases the Paladins hate position (AE) by 1.
    - Increases Potency and Critical Bonus of Group and Raid members by 5%
    - Increases the Heal amount of Raid and Group members by 5%
    - Increases combat art and spell damage of the Paladin by 5%

    AA Option: Each Rank in Enhance Crusade adds.
    - 1 Hate position.
    - 1% Potency and Critical Bonus
    - 1% Heal ammount
    - 1% Spell and Combat Art damage.

    My thoughts on how to fix that hate issue without duplicating Class Skills from the other tanks. We want to ensure Paladins can do their job without being Pseudo-Guardians or Pseudo-Monks here. That said though Warriors in general could use a 20% increase in base damage to all their CA's.

    Edit: As a Guardian If I throw all my snaps (not Reinforcement or Recapture as that's not a true snap, they are specialty snaps unique to the Guardian and should stay as such) I will ascend 12 positions. Not that much stronger than a Crusaders 7 (hey my solution to Crusade brings Paladins up to 12 positions ;)).

    Edit X2: OMG I realized Paladins have a worthless skill that fits this PERFECTLY!!! (sorry excited) I changed the above a lot from it's original state. Please give some feedback on that idea.
  17. Netty Member

    Recast is a issue aswell. But tbh its the only fights where Ire procs are handy imo :p
  18. Estred Well-Known Member

    Take a gander at the changed post I had there. Minus the long recast I think I just potentially solved 2 issues with the Paladin in 1 go.
  19. Boli Active Member

    10% raid wide crit bonus and potency on a 5min timer? Sounds a lot like Heretics destruction - an ability we already have.

    If they are going to change Crusade, have "Enhance Crusade" give Strength, Agility and Intelligence to the same level as Wisdom if you put 5 ranks in it. A simple... quick fix.


    I complained about the heal on intercept since its inception as it is a USELESS heal (it will never go off...); if anything I would love it to increase the triggers by one each point so it'll be a 6 trigger intercept at max ranks. BUT each time it triggers it heals the PALADIN for an additional 10% of max health.

    So Paladins can use it as an extremely effective OTing tool.. especially when combined with our "saves". (e.g. Stonewall)


    ~~~

    If they are going to change any ability completely for a snap it should be Holy Avenger (Mythical Clicky); this was designed in the same expansion Paladin's got the Original Holy Ground (Originally reinforcement type ability which proced 24 hate positions and (officially) moved us up into second on the hate list.)

    Change the Mythical pet to be MUCH shorter recast/duration (say 2min30s recast 15s duration) and instead of having it cast an AoE which heals group for 1.2k deals damage AoE for 1.2k - have it cast a one-positional rescue on its target and make it immune to all damage/status effects.

    Basically make it into a DoT with a fancy graphic which "pulses" rescues on its target - it'll be 15 positions in 15 seconds not the fastest snap taunt but a significant upgrade to what we have now.
  20. Estred Well-Known Member

    Fine by me, suggestion was just an alternative to duplicating Guardian or Monk type abilities. I had forgotten about Heretics and having my suggestion stack with Heretics would be problematic... groupwide 20% CB would be nuts... yeah maybe I got somewhere but not as a final idea.

    Though just make it 5 positional instantly, not pulsed. Pulsing positionals are why many tanks (at least myself) despise those who insist on using Ire for everything. It is supposed to be a snap. Though at 5 positons it would have to have at least a 3.5 min cast time.
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