Focused Fighter Feedback

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Xelgad, Jan 11, 2013.

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  1. Erszebeth Active Member

    The death on UW is for guardians only, zerk has an AA option that removes the death penalty if your berserk when the proc expires.
    Bloodletter, while being potentially the strongest, also has the largest drawback, in that it is the ONLY one that requires a minimum of 2 other people grouped with you to even trigger.
    However, I would argue that Vision of Madness <Berserker death prevent>, is triggered while berserk (which is almost always in combat), with full AA has 30%(not on zerk atm, so could be mistaken) and heals for 12.5% per tick for 12 ticks, and has a fairly short recast, 5 minutes base, and is maintained until triggered. The drawback on it is that if it triggers and your NOT berserk, it heals for about half the berserk amount.
  2. Rhita Member

    He has made suggestions, and like it or not, there are people who are going to disagree about certain suggestions. I, for example, am against everything Boli suggested as well.

    I like the extra block on my ears, I like the extra mit on my rings, I liked the extra reuse on my wrists.

    Tanks don't need a 12 position rescue, with AAs my 8 position resuce works just fine.

    Sneering Assault doesn't need a 20-25m range. I personally have chased down the Glokus add, used sneering assault, and dragged it back to the raid the entire way. It's not an issue, I sprint when needed, and yell at my coercer when I need more power.

    As a tank, I know when I need to be in defensive stance and have plenty of ST/Acc to deal with the bad hit rates. I also know when I can be fully offensive to increase my hit rate even more.

    Do not add an immunity proc to defensive stance. I already have 3 and everyone is able to acquire 1-2 so it is not needed.
  3. Estred Well-Known Member

    Zerks if not berserk are killed by Unyielding Will the fact that they are almost always zerked prevents that. The only major drawback is that Bloodletter is not usable outside of group/raid. The reason BL is capped how it is is the strength of it. I am however saying both UW and BL need slight modifications as Tenacity is a reliable "stoneskin" of sorts, I see Brawlers do it all the time.
  4. Erszebeth Active Member

    I don't really see the inability to cast blood letter in combat as a drawback, a nuance yes, but not a drawback, the drawback is the requirement of 2 additional people besides yourself in the group for it to work.
    As for UW, the only drawback on a zerk is the long recast; I can't really speak to guardian side of it tho.
  5. Silzin Active Member

    I think (I dont play one so not an expert) the draw back from a grouping and raid stand point of bloodletter is the "not recastable in combat". from a soloing or pvp i am sure the 2 other people requirement hurts.
  6. Erszebeth Active Member

    even from a raid/group stand point, if bloodletter procs both times, your not going to still be in combat when it is recastable, you might be in NEW combat, but thats a matter of bad timing. Yes, with some of the current raid mobs you might be in combat long enough for it to proc, and be recastable, but those fights are the exception.
  7. Estred Well-Known Member

    The weakness of UW for guards is it forces us to use AA on it to avoid the death AND has a massive recast. It also has the least triggers of all the DI's hence my suggestion for maybe a slightly lower minimum recast (6-8 minutes) and have a Stoneskin trigger as SS's are kinda a big part of being a Warrior/Guardian specifically. This would just help keep you up when it triggers for a few more seconds so a Dirge can rez your healer if that is why you died. It still would not allow a Guardian to last longer than a Brawler via DI's. I satisfies part of the same role as Tenacity but not the utility of a permanent DI like Bloodletter and Divine Favor.

    Brawlers must also spec AA but they get more Triggers from theirs, so Warriors get Stoneskins... Crusaders get the lovelyness of a permanent DI.
  8. Daalilama Well-Known Member

    Maybe Estred could give his 5 copper pieces on this as I trust his judgment, I'm currently gearing up a guardian as a backup for raids (my main is a templar and I havent raid tanked on him since the KOS days) but is it time to finally consider giving the guardian a heal (it is after all the only tank without a heal or a ward or both) say a % heal attached to hunker downwhen active maybe?
  9. Rhita Member

    I think it would be better if they fixed Arena Endurance, the endline in the sta tree. Right now it currently heals for 10hp for every CA (WOW!). It should be changed to heal 2-3% Per CA.
  10. Daalilama Well-Known Member

    True but that endline has been garbage for so long and I feel they will continue to ignore it again why I chimed in with the heal idea...be nice if they fixed it and I'm reading some very good suggestions on adjusting fighters for the better but past experience dictates the adjustments they wanna do wont be very in depth or meaningful...sorry Xelgad....I know I'm your least favorite templar on prestige abilities atm...calling them as I see it.
  11. Erszebeth Active Member

    I share your feelings here, but....I try to remain hopeful that this will be a meaningful change, and useful, and even if it doesn't get finished with this GU, it will be in the next. *runs to hide from the reality hammer*
  12. Estred Well-Known Member

    Right here is exactly what I would have suggested. Now Rhita Arena Endurance is a 100% Sustained buff. 2-3% HP per CA when we cast 2 CA's a second if we are fast means a Warrior would heal... 4-5% life EVERY SECOND for me in a raid that means I would heal 10K HPS just by attacking :eek:.

    Arena Endurance being fixed is what both Guards and Zerkers need to have what was supposed to be their "survival" Endline back. Here is my suggestion for both a Sustained Buff and a Proc-Based Effect.

    Current Mechanics

    Arena Endurance.
    • 20% of target's power consumed will be added to target's health
    • Target will lose 10% less power when power is consumed
    At heart this skill is designed to heal you and help elongate your power through reduced consumption, the numbers are minimalistic now.

    Sustained Buff (Same Mechanics, Numerical Change)
    - Target will consume 20% Less power.
    - 800% of targets power consumed will be added to target's health.

    Reasoning: Alright as stands 20% of the average CA's power cost is 7-14 HP so 100% is 70-120hp which is still too small. 800% though is 560-960hp. I originally though 1000% but you can cast 2 CA's a Second and 1500-3000hp a second seemed a bit high. This setup would yeild a constant 1120-1920hps by a Warrior. Greatly expanding their solo capacity and survival against non-heavy damage in groups. This is also roughly 1% Max HP atm without changing any mechancis.

    Sustained Buff (Different Mechancis)
    - Target will consume 20% Less power.
    - On successful combat artthe Warrior will heal .5% of their Maximum Health.

    Reasoning: This version used % based healing to keep viable at all levels of play much like the power-conversion does. The difference is as you scale up Casting Speed this becomes more useful giving a reason to use this stat as a Warrior (Reforge Option). Average 1-2 maybe 3 casts per second and you are healing 1-1.5% Max HPS which is still less than 3K making the Warrior NOT a tank-healer like the Paladin.

    Proc Based Mechanic (Largest Change)
    - On successful combat or spell hitwill cast Enduring Will on the caster. Enduring Will lasts for 5 seconds. Triggers 5 times per minute.
    Enduring Will
    - Reduces power consumption of target by 50%.
    - Heals caster for 1% of Maximum HP and 500hp every second.

    Reasoning: Like the non-proc effects the goal is power-cost reduction and heals. This version just uses proccing to heal with a small HoT. The power consumption reduction is higher to compensate for not being up 100% of the time.

    I have my own opinion as to which method I enjoy the idea of the most but they all have positives. The first is the least work by Development side and still has the desired effect. The second option makes the skill stable to heal the same amount regardless of actual numbers. The third option though depending on proc rate may have the most power and desired effect from players, but requires the most work to implement.
  13. Boli Active Member

    I have no idea where all the hate is coming from... I am just detailing all the stuff that really annoys me in raids/groups/solo. This is not a skill issue or a "you're doing it wrong" issue but a highly frustrating parts of the game where you reach the wall and cannot go any further or have completely random effects loose the fight for you. I should have said if you didn't know already but this is from a PALADIN perspective.


    Rescue Sneering Assault Range

    Yes, I understand how to sprint and run after mobs; e.g. I'm one of the first tanks to sprint to new locations if the mob needs to be moved - but sometimes you do not have the luxury of sprinting after the mob as you are holding up a named /add and need to pull another. The 10m range restriction to all snaps can be extremely frustrating and sometimes you can't simply throw another tank into the mix, increasing the range of single target snaps to 25m is not overpowering everything... it is making a frustrating mechanic easier to deal with.


    More positions on Rescue by Default

    I find it amusing how everyone is saying "snaps are fine", "my rescue of 6/8 positions is perfect"; well of course your rescues are perfect, the default positions is: 3 and there are only two tanks stuck with it: Monk and Paladin... and monk's unlike paladins have a LOT more snaps. Perhaps the snaps issue I should have placed in the Paladin only column but the point remains is that a rescue for 3 positions is balanced towards GROUP content and not raid. With this "new and improved mem-shuffle" and pets you can end up pretty far down the hate list.
    Even allowing time to DPS before your rescue can .. and often does lead to deaths; which thanks to the mechanic means the mob becomes harder. Perhaps 12 positions is a "bit high"... especially if enhanced but this can easily be adjusted... but rescue needs to have a few more positions on by default it was designed for raids which no-longer exist.
    Once again a few extra hate positions by default on rescue is making a frustrating mechanic easier to deal with; ditto on having sneering assault un-resistable; in fact ALL snaps should be un-resistable; the ire bow I've had to lean on a lot recently is resisted half the time.


    Hit Rate

    As for the Hit rate; I have a decent hit rate... NOW... after 8 adorns and 3 reforges; but even then its only pushing 85-90% and unlike scouts tanks have to load up on BOTH strikethrough and accuracy and their +s/c/p buff is linked to their offensive stance; swapping into def from offensive I loose 100 s/c/p and even after all of this I will still have a lower hit rate than the scouts simply because, "I am in front of the mob". This is inexcusable as we already get less "DPS stats" on our gear to begin with as we NEED the +Mitigation and +Block Chance.


    Immunity Procs

    Put simply anything which stuns/stifles/daze/disarms/force-target/charm/fear/root/knockback or any combination of them is extremely annoying and often is the reason the tank fails to do their job. The guardian is blessed with an immunity proc and all tanks will be aiming to get Astal Domnium at the very least. You cannot joust out of all of these effects every single time so a tank is going to have to deal with them.. and deal with them a LOT.
    Perhaps I was a bit ambitious wanting a full immunity proc on the defensive stance... but a chance to proc immunity to KNOCKBACK on the defensive stance will make that aspect of raiding/grouping a *lot* less annoying as even in the"perfect position" after a knockback you will often have to reposition the mob.
    Tekadeo and Cyrde like this.
  14. Erszebeth Active Member

    I couldn't agree more, a chance to avoid KBs would be a god send in alot of the combat mechanics, its annoying enough as a DPS or healer...but as a tank....positioning is all on your shoulders, and a chance to be able to avoid KBs, would take alot of positioning stress away on those fights that are heavy on the KB.
  15. Estred Well-Known Member

    Was missing what class you were speaking in regards to Boli, I don't think it's hate so much as "I disagree here is why" type responses. To address yours now that I have more information.

    Rescue Sneering Assault Range

    I wouldn't change it, Sneering Assualt is a Melee skill as such it is tied to Melee Range. Rescue however is a 10m range that is decent distance and I would say bump it to 15 if anything at all, do you realize how FAR 25m is? that is darn near a bows range.

    The issue is more mobs tend to "super run" often breaking past the normal path rate and are out of range in about 1 second. It is annoying but I wouldn't trade it as dealing with that is part of being a good tank. I can feel a mob loose aggro somehow before he actually has gotten of 100% Threat and turned around.

    If anything got done specifically for Paladins lack of Snap Taunts... it should be in Paladin Specific AA not Fighter's all around. As said if anything is done maybe extend Sneering Assault to 7m and Rescue to 15m any higher I will argue is too much.

    More positions on Rescue by Default

    You seem to more have a problem with "monk and paladin" are stuck with 3 positions on Rescue. If you want to up it to 6 know that Guardians now have an 12 Positional Rescue... not that I would mind that for Memshuffles and it makes Guardians more a Raid-tank than Group-tank in AA set up thus freeing Group-Guards from having to even touch Resuce AA so alright you have half-my support make it 6 positions but not more.

    *I understand the Paladin's problem with snaps and have said such in the Crusader AA thread, they lack snaps but they did it for more powerful spells and CA's so they can do damage.

    Hit Rate

    As I have said... I don't know where the issue is... I use 2 White Adorns and only Reforged 3-4 pieces to have 25% ACC and 50% Strikethorugh roughly... I have over 95% hit rates in Raid and stay over 90% in Defensive easily. Either I am special or there is not a real problem (in my eyes) and it is localized to certain players.

    There is a reason of course for Offensive and Defensive stances, they are Tradeoffs if you want a balacne... don't use a stance. Unless they redid the Warrior Wisdom Endline (and a number of other issues in that old-tree) I won't support making both stances have no penalites.


    Immunity Procs
    As said before the Immunity Proc is the major defining part of the Guardian Mythical to give it to all tanks devalues the Guardian unless they stack of course... which would make Guardians very very hard to CC given the Immunities they have. There has been no resistance to Kick-backs other than good positioning and steering and there shouldn't be imo. They already gave all tanks access to an Immunity Rune which already has Devalued the Guardian Mythical since Wrath of the Warrior is $*%&^ for damage.

    TSO had tank's locked up for nearly half the fight... 30 second to 1 minute long charms. 20 second stuns. CoE is nothing by that and you even have a way to deal with it now including CC-Breaking Potions. To me asking for Immunity Procs on all Defensive stances is more complaining about dealing with CC than a good idea, sorry that is my opinion.

    *Unless I think previous Suggestions I made the Wrath of Vel'Arek were seriously considered giving other tanks Immunity procs outside of Dominon is just too devaluing. That's like giving everyone 100% AE-Auto adornments would devalue Zerkers... or what about an Adornment to proc AE-Hate Positions... oh, I forgot that's what Holy Ground and Grave Sacrament are for so that would devalue Crusaders.

    Maybe I shouldn't do late night posts... I got my point across but I can't tell if it was snarky or not :confused: apologies for over snarkyness if it's there. I'm tired... stayed up too late to even get sleep curse having to get up at 7 and having an over-active brain.
  16. Boli Active Member

    Bows go to 50m range (Longarm, Bow of the underfoot) standard bows are 35m and there are CAs with 50m range (Faithful Cry, Peel, Essence Siphon just off the top of my head), and ranged spells are 30m range; so it it is not a number I pulled out of nowhere :)

    av. human reaction time: 0.3s
    Sneering Assault 0.5s casting (0.25s max cast speed)
    Ping ~200ms (0.2s)

    If the mob is out of range in 1.0s you are looking at only a leway of 0.25s to cast a spell before the mob is out of range. Rescue I often catch it in time (instant cast) but sneering assualt if there is even the *slightest* delay its hitting spint and running after it only to find if I do hit the mob it is resisted.

    Given this is a thread discussing the "annoying aspects" of eq2 I count that as one of them and increased range of snaps will go a *long* way towards helping with this.
  17. Estred Well-Known Member

    Yep, I knew you had sources for your numbers I just didn't agree with the magnitude mostly. Hence my two "middle of the road" suggestions. Bump Rescue to 15m giving you ample time to cast it... estimated .5-.75 seconds I doubt you would get a full second. Also bump Sneering to 7m giving you probably .3-.35 seconds of leeway in reaction time to cast it.

    Same goes for the Positions of Rescue... 12 is too much but 6 makes it the "raid-taunt" while all others satisfy "group-taunt" thus gaining Fighters the adaptability to Raid vs Group.

    Current Rescue: 3 Positions = 50% of the positions in a Group
    New Rescue: 6 Positions = 50% of the positions in an X2 Raid but only 25% of an X4.
    Suggested Rescue: 12 Positions 50% of a raid... but 100% of an X2 and 200% of a Group. Turns it into too much of a "get out of memwipe free" card.


    I also would not count the Longarm Bow of the Underfoot as a reasonable measure of range... that thing was ridiculous. Those far-casts also are not Taunts by their nature they are usually damage spells, Taunts have sort of a min-max range effectiveness they need to maintain to keep tanking interesting beyond what is there already.

    Honestly some of my favorite scripts were HM-Drunder and SF-Challenge... I loved Rohen Theer, Waansu, Toxxulia, Maalus Imbued. Even fights like Kraytoc(Challenge), Turganpuncher, Legatus Prime Mikiil, Tormax, Statue of Zek... those fights all had parts we 'hated' but in hidnsight I loved and enjoyed them. From TSO I dispised Switchmaster... but that was a good script to follow and required attention, no playing with 1 hand.
  18. Silzin Active Member

    Monk changes, addition
    Eagle Shriek and Eagle Patience

    What they do now.
    Eagle Shriek – Passive Spell
    · Improves Base Auto Attack multiplier of caster by .225
    · Increase Mitigation of caster vs Physical damage by 2090 (@95)
    · If Under 50% Health

    Eagle Patience – Casting, Instant – Recast 60 base, 30 max reuse – duration 15 sec
    · 1 triger stone skin vs all damage if under 50%. Can not cast if over 50%. With 8 AA its 2 trigger stone skin.

    Eagle Shriek and Eagle Patience are the Int endline for the brawler tree. These abilities are useless as stated earlier, due to the under 50% part of both. I recognize that just removing the “Under 50%” of them would make then way over powered, so lets look at what can be changed to make this endline a usable defensive ability.

    Eagle Shriek idea 1– I like the “Passive Spell” part, lets try to keep that.
    · The “Base Auto Attack multiplier” sadly I think needs to go. Would be to op in group/raid.
    · The Mitigation looks fine to me. Or change it to about 5% DR so it scales better.
    · Just removing the “If Under 50% Health” would make the ability useable.

    Eagle Shriek idea 2 – Passive ability, procs the 5-10% DR for 10 sec’s when you drop below 50%. After a fight starts this would probably stay up. Using this way Eagle Patience can just be tied to if the proc is up and leave the recast the same.

    Eagle Patience – a 2 trigger stone skin recastable every 30 sec would be OP if no other conditions are on it…
    · I think just by increasing the base recast to 2 min, and removing the if under 50% parts to this it should be ok.

    I think I would profer having a Stone skin I can rely on using then one that may be up when I need it or may not.

    Next problem area – Winds of Salvation. I don’t have any quick and relativity balanced things to do for it. I have some ideas but it would probably involve a full over haul.
  19. Sixgauge Well-Known Member

    I don't think guardians should have any healing ability at all outside of bind wound and unyielding will. Guards should instead get abilities to soak/nullify damage so other classes can catch up the heals.



    Reckless stance is not meant to be used while tanking. People are tanking in reckless stance. Remove uncontested avoidance while in reckless stance. People will stop tanking in reckless stance.

    I can't think of what reason you could possibly have for uncontested avoidance while in reckless, but I'm sure you have one, and I bet it's amazing.
  20. Sixgauge Well-Known Member

    When is this ever an issue? If you die doing some content that is doable by 2 people or less... big deal.
    Tekadeo likes this.
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