Focused Feedback - Fighters

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Xelgad, Nov 14, 2014.

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  1. xkrisx Well-Known Member

    I dont seem to have a problem in current content on my Bruiser as I havnt found anything that requires a 100% Temp Rotation as of yet. Knowing when to temp is key so far. But, I am not nearly as far into the content as Genghes is this expac so if he's able to do it, then its possible. I too have dropped most of my Block Armor for Mitigation Armor and it has made a HUGE difference. I speculate that with full Mit Armor and just enough block to allow Zlandicar Weapon / Jewelry procs to keep me at 70% Uncontested.

    As it sits, even in the lower end armor I have accumulated, I sit at 16k Mitigation solo, no temps or procs running. Martial Retaliation and our Long Duration Mit temp up and I am bucking 20k Mit solo.. I averagely see my mitigation in raid sitting around 24 to 25k. So far though as much as I have seen into this content, most mobs due some sort of Magic Damage that you might have to block but Melee Wise, not so much " yet ".

    This does NOT change my stand though on the Bruiser class in general needing some attention. The vast difference between Monk and Bruiser temp rotation is getting out of control. With the shared AA's and Stats that we get, anything you give to help balance it just widens the gap even further.

    I also support the vast majority of posts across ALL feedback threads about our old AA"s being revamped. Alot of them are outdated and provide zero benifit.

    Thanks :)
  2. Malleria Well-Known Member

    The only mob I'm seeing issues with is (or was I suppose, since I haven't tried him after the nerf) the behemoth because of his strikethrough combined with large hits. I mean, with 24k mit he was still hitting me for 4mil. I can survive one of those if the mystic has just landed a full set of wards, but where ordinarily my avoidance would give me a breather while the wards were reapplied, the huge strikethrough just lol's at my avoidance and hits me again immediately. If we swapped our inq for a channeler I bet we'd breeze through it, but the point was taking a bruiser with healers that don't specialize in blocking high hits is a losing combination on that mob, and it shouldn't require a special combo that early in the progression.
  3. Genghes Active Member

    Best healing combo for bruiser defiler and Templar
  4. Malleria Well-Known Member

    Well crud, just did behemoth post-nerf and max hit was 739k. That was overkill nerf wise, just a tank and spank now o_O
  5. slica Active Member

    It was tank n spank before the nerf ;)
  6. xkrisx Well-Known Member


    Mystic / Channeler seems to be my favorite but havnt had any complaints yet on Mystic Inquis either.
  7. Silzin Active Member

    I just preformed a test to work on my threat output. I increased my Ability Mod from 7k to 14k, expecting it to affect my Taunts by a significant amount. the strange thing is that the amount of my taunts did not change by more than 100k threat over all of my taunts combined. this is within the margin of error for the large range most taunts have. but it was looking like my taunts are not being affected my Ability Mod. Has any one else seen this or can test it also?

    Also by going up to 25k AB Mod and still did not seeing any noticeable difference in my Taunt values. I am just thinking that going from 7k to 25k AB Mod would give me some increase in Taunt amount.
  8. Ansom Active Member

    ([normal amount] * [potency] + [ability modifier]) * [crit bonus] = Damage




    and the soft cap is.. 50% on the base damage.
  9. Silzin Active Member

    I know and have understood this formula for a long time. i thought that AB Mod was applied before Pot, but what ever.

    I tested with a taunt that does not have a range for consistency, Dragon Rage, tool tip Taunts for 55,157.
    I know that STR (or is it STA?) effects Taunts and i am assuming that this is reflected in the tool tip i am seeing. So i should be able to apply about 27k AB Mod to this Taunt and see some change. I tested at 3k AB Mod and 15k AB Mod. both times i got a normalized hit of 974,111. I did get some Leg, Fabled and Myth crits higher, but i am excluding them.

    Doing the math from above with the 55k Taunt {(55,157 * [Pot of 387] 4.87) +[AB Mod]15,000} * [CB] 6.82 = 1.943 Mill Taunt. Even without the AB Mod added in i get like 1.4 mill Taunt using the math.

    Ether I am doing the math WAY rang here or something is rang with the way these things are calculated. Also AB Mod is not effecting taunts as fare as i can tell.
  10. Partyx New Member

    Salutations Xelgad,

    I am glad to hear you have interest for some feedback. Let's get started. First off Archetype AA trees have been dated for years. Currently for all classes not just fighter. The standard as of now is using a lot of points just for one or two of the AA abilities or gains. In other words you need to use a lot of points before you get into anything good. Some of the AA's are just very watered down over the years do to stat inflation of gear. Some trees people have not looked at for awhile being they suite no purpose anymore. Example of this would be WIS line in Crusader tree.. It offers no real eye catcher, leaving no real alternatives. Many lines are currently this way for many classes. I would say that a touch to these would benefit all classes and the people that play them to require some consideration. Currently most players run a standard build, simply due to the fact anything else is extremely sub-par in comparison.

    Moving on to an overview of what classes really need a buff.

    While Brawlers over the many years become popular one expansion then nearly extinct the next expansion (raiding wise). Monks have been a hands down choice over the Bruiser.
    Reason being the overall abilities and current weapon damage from auto attacks makes Monk an easy choice. Combat damage in fighters has been in need of an overhaul for quite some time. Bruiser being the number one combat art damage class makes life hard. Making Bruiser viable again should be paramount in maintaining game class balance. Which provides a more in depth class offering to the players.

    Crusaders have been the same way for awhile also. While the Shadowknight may not have been in as bad of shape as the Bruiser. Shadowknights currently are heroic content tanks, they do well. However, Paladins have been just as good the whole time. Once entering the raid content a Shadowknight being a viable choice becomes substansially less in comparision to other tanks. The Shadowknights take a lot more damage and the self healing part of the Shadowknight that makes them viable in heroic content quickly becomes less viable in today's raiding environment in comparison to other tanks and even its counterpart the Paladin.

    Warriors have not much wrong with them. They have been viable for the longest time. While having some expansions that made them not the top pick they have long overcame those days. However, they like most classes have some mechanics that have become long over due for a overhaul along with the Archetype tree.

    Finally, to sum it all up! Bruisers and Shadowknights have been low on the totem pole for awhile raiding wise. However, there have been a few great players that made it into raiding on such classes with success. Although, I'm sure most of them would admit you are starting from a large disadvantage sadly. Nonetheless, the classes should be balanced from a standard players skill set not from a veteran of the class. I know this did not contain detail on what exactly makes my statements valid. Xelgad, if this catches your eye and you are truly interested in more detail on why. I could provide valid reasoning to all above. Just reply or catch me ingame! We could have a mannered chat. :)
  11. Genghes Active Member

    Sizlin,
    Try casting your single target taunt 10 times on a dummy. After that adorn like 5 strength adorns and do a 10 cast test and see the difference. I believe if you want to increase threat amount you need to increase your strength.
  12. Silzin Active Member

    Thank you, i will try that, just saying that Ability Mod is not affecting Threat Amounts.
  13. Silzin Active Member

    Ok, i tested this last night, with adding ~500 STR my taunts went up by about 10%.
  14. Genghes Active Member

    Interesting 50 str per 1% increase
  15. Clevemo Active Member

    I'm a bit frustrated with the ridiculous hit rates this expansion. I did a test where I was a 100% strikethrough and 54% accuracy on my guardian during a raid and on some of the content I was only 60% successful hit rate. I have a difficult time justifying maxing out both strikethrough and accuracy in order to hit a fully debuffed NPC with consistency ... 60% isn't consistent. My weapon skills suffer because I wear defensive gear that gives worthless +defense when my archetype gear/jewelry needs +weapon skills. I'm one of the last high-level raiding guardians playing ... all archetype tanks are suffering to manage threat because of the combination of the low hit rates, low potency leading to worthless CA damage, high resists to taunts etc.
  16. Genghes Active Member

    Yeah hit rates are bad this expac. Only way to really increase hit rate now days is to have 1500+ weapon skill. It's a unreachable goal if you're full tank mode
  17. Hamorm Member

    Hit rate so bad ... Knick knack paddy wack devs give a dog a bone ! ST / accuracy / weapon skill not achievable
  18. Estred Well-Known Member

    This is pretty accurate to the issues hitting all tanks. Just to add my backing.

    • Low CA Damage is made even lower by not having reliable sources of Potency. It's not just "damage" to a Fighter. It's hate, threat increase and DPS = Hate.
    • Bad Hitrates are crippling the other large part of hate, Auto-Attacks have been a huge part of damage (especially for Warriors) since Destiny of Velious and I would say even TSO/SF era.
    • Defensive Stats (Defense and Parry Stats notable and Deflection for Brawlers) are worthless really. Contested-Hit-Rates haven't been tracked by players or cared about since KoS. Even then, they offer so little to actual defense (Uncontested Avoidance) when overcapped that it's a useless stat-sink.
    • High resistances as Clevemo said, is just another nail. If Fighters are missing Auto's and dealing less damage with CA's and their Taunts are being resisted... well how exactly are Fighters intended to hold aggro? It can be done, as noted since we all can, it's just not fun.
    Fighters are and have always been the most stat-gluttonous class in the game because they have to be able to do everything. Their limitations are defined by their CA's and Temps not by their stats. Attempting to "lock" stats to being either "offensive" or "defensive" is not going to work.

    Reckless has taught us that attempting to be "full offense" while losing Defense doesn't work due to Temp-Rotations. That led to DPS classes complaining about it and has now led to Threat Problems. The major challenge that can't be done in QoL fixes is the fact that Fighters are borderline gods. They can temp themselves to invulnerability for vast periods of time so to challenge them the Dev's have to remove either the Ability to cast Temps (No Beneficial Debuff) or make it so that Fighters have to hit other abilities to do their job while temping (which some temps prevent action) which is what they are doing now it seems.

    Overall as Clevemo has stated. There are very few Raiding Guardians left or those who are still active enough to know what's going on with class balance. I would potentially be so bold to say that there are less than ten raiding Guardians and less than five dedicated-guardians raiding who have a deep understanding of the game and relations of stats/playstyles/combat/scrips...ect.
    Lethlian likes this.
  19. Silzin Active Member

    as i have been thinking about what the underlying problems of the QoL for fighters... and all classes i play... there are CA's/AA that need looked at, but the problem is Itemization. there are like 12 sets of armor that have parts of the stats that WE as tanks need, but none of then give us enough stats to get what we really need to perform our job. I do not think all classes need any more then 4 or 5 sets of armor to have all of the choices that are needed and the versatility that players will still have to make choices. Next Anywhere that Defense is on items, add Weapon Skills (Maybe also the stats that SK/Pally need for spells).

    But I also think that the "Pink Elephant in the Room" is that Avoidance in this game is TO ____ Complicated and has been driven over the brink of functionally. Avoidance and all Hit systems need to be reworked from the ground up. then all AA and abilities that affect them need to be adjusted accordingly.
  20. Estred Well-Known Member

    TO as in Theoretical Optimization or as in literally "too" to mean in excess? Avoidance has been breaking since DoV when Strike-through was placed on enemies vastly nerfing all non-brawlers back to inflated HP pools making brawlers need Temp-Rotations to live... then enemies needed more damage to cause damage through some temps... leading to Plate Tanks also adopting Temp Rotations.

    It's been an arm's race with Fighters and Enemies for the last few expansions. Arm's races commonly end with neither party winning. Except, the Fighters need to win or else everyone else (Mages/Scouts/Priests) don't get to have their fun. A fighter having fun, enables everyone else to have fun grouping. Fighters tend to be the players who know things as well. Has anyone noticed that the majority of well-read and knowledgeable players are Fighters?

    Redoing the Hit-System and Avoidance-System though is... exceptionally daunting and would it be worth the investment? It would spin EQ2 up on it's heels and do twenty pirouettes before going into a seizure as the players have to re-learn things they have used for seven plus years, some of us all ten years. I think the more important question is how to solve the issue as it stands now... and it almost seems that Fighters need an in-depth redesign and rebalanced. Nothing is simple where Fighters are concerned.
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