As an EQ tradeskill veteran, I understand that making crafters dependent on adventuring for any sort of end game or progression makes crafting no more than a sideline skill for bored adventurers. The recipe means nothing if the crafter doesn't have the means to do anything with it, either by utilizing it him or herself or by viability as a marketable good.
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: Really,under the current game mechanics I think the process is fine. Just making the item is not a reward, earning the right to is. While I do think there should be incentive to pay attention, why should making the item be a greater stress than needed? Given the nature of crafting as a service industry, that process should not be the holder of all the difficulty. There can be risk sure, but that risk is better placed on the path to the recipes than the recipes themselves. Putting it on the recipes is akin to making adventurers actively fight to keep their gear on; all that effort to get the reward just to keep fighting the reward itself. I don't imagine many raiders would raid if they had to engage in epic battles against their own equipment. Approaching this through cost means is going to prove ineffective.It's the same idea as thinking multi-rare combines does anything to risk vs. reward. The only way to add in real "risk" to crafters that goes beyond just money is by events that can really be failed. Timers are a good start to this, resource management is another. We've hashed some of these ideas out elsewhere in more current(and on topic) threads so I'm not going to re-detail them here. Have you actually been reading what I've been posting?If you have, you'll see that in almost every post I've said crafters need to have their own way and be able to earn their own recipes. Earning your own recipe gives you everything to do with it. The components are a different matter entirely. The problem with components in this game is adventurers must still be rewarded. If crafters can make top notch gear with 0 involvement from adventuring, that puts a significant portion of progression on the broker akin to what t6 used to be. How long will those timers be to realistically battle this? A day? A week? If there are 10 level 70 armorers or whatever on that server, even at a week that's 40 a week- no so unrealistic for someone to forgo upper tier adventuring all together and just farm the broker. Any suggestion has to take adventuring into account too.The difference between here and EQ1 is that in EQ1 components were everything. Here, having separate recipes allows crafters to advance on a completely different path while components can be distributed any way they please.
Crafter 1 = At level 70, crafts for 40 hours per week. Crafter 2 = At level 70, raids EH, crafts at most 1 hour per week when asked to craft EH stuff. Crafter 2 > Crafter 1. So in short to be a better crafter you have to raid. Not exactly what I'd like to see.
[p]I believe it is possible to get all of this, in a way.[/p][p]Think about this, if there is more pressure put on status points in the game (the ability to buy spells, special materials, etc) then the ability to use them in crafting will be a true cost and using them to 'make' things would represent a concept of time spent on the crafter (eliminating the randomness of the rare harvest).[/p][p]Say for example, and remember this is considering that people would be using these abilities to get their adepts and to spend on other things as well.[/p][ul][li]Rare material remains a chance off of node (thought about putting it in here, but if you did, nothing would ever get harvested ) Course, you could move the entire harvesting system to a vendor system as well...[/li][li]Legendary material 25k times tier[/li][li]Fabled material 50k times tier[/li][/ul][p]Now to make a fabled item, it would take a significant investment of time on the behalf of the crafter to even get the material themselves (even at 8.5k a pop, this would be 6 t7 writs for a t1 material! 42 for the t7). Add the increased chance of failure on the combine that I proposed and I think you have the potential for a pretty good system. Make it so Legendary and Fabled items can only be gotten at the 2 highest factions and you create a barrier that is obtainable, but wholely crafter dependent to get to. (note, I wouldn't even be close as I'm just over 10k faction with ironforge )[/p][p]Something like this gives a serious progression potential to the crafter that is entirely in their hands, should they want to work for it.[/p]
Personally, I wouldn't mind raid dropped recipes, adventure quest and drop recipes, etc, if there were also crafting ways to obtain recipes (and other tradeskill related things). I do actually agree that not ever crafter of a particular class should automagically obtain a recipe or even that every crafter of a class should necessarily have access to every recipe. BUT different ways to obtain recipes -including- crafting methods would be ideal. A hard-core raider who tradeskills might get an EH recipe but not one which requires a crafting quest, but a hard-core tradeskiller who doesn't raid would still have a way to get something special, something better, even, than Mastercrafted (but maybe not both fabled). Even if both recipes required a No Trade component that had to be looted and could only use the commission system (if not the crafter oneself), it would still provide the hard-core tradeskiller something special. Being special, having something to differentiate you, feeling like you matter, is really all this is about.
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: While it might work in a limited scope, how does an item that required no adventure effort whatsoever besides plat farming provide a reward for adventuring? You're going to run into it every single time. There are only two ways about what you proposed- so easy it wrecks progression or so onerous it never gets used,in this case you suggested it's the latter. Well, it appears to be until you get into how the status system in this game works. All my chars have at least 2.5 million status and almost all of it was just from leveling. If I want, I can devote significant plat to buying status items and if I raid in any capacity status flows like water. Even if all I did was writs, my current capped faction crafters did all of it while leveling so not only was that status/faction incidental, I made over 10pp doing it. Even after all that, 42 t7 writs at my 6min max a writ takes about 36 mins a day of work to crank out one a week. if just 10 crafters per server did that, there would be a reasonable expectation to see it on the broker. Trying to get crafts into this world independent of adventuring is going to be nothing but a headache and really impossible to do without seriously impacting adventure progression. It's not only easier but more practical to focus on getting those recipes independently and leaving the components as they are now
[p]I agree with allowing existing item limiting features control supply of primary Fabled crafting components (zone lockout timers, drop tables, no-trade, and lore tags) instead of lock-out timers. More players have and will raid, a crafter must be able to service players at a rate sufficient to control cost, without driving it to nothing. Drop components brings the crafter and adventurer together, after both have completed their independent progressions. The system would breakdown if the raidguild returns with 2 drops and their crafter can not build both players their eagerly awaited new gear.[/p][p]Allowing crafters to create finished items without adventurer involvement during procurement of primary components, whether trade or no-trade, will only result in upsetting the adventuring community. No matter the actual cost of acquistion or the effort required, adventurers would only see a riskless grind bypassing their progression. Many adventurers pride themselves on equiping by drops. Drop components bridge the two realms nicely. Should any implemented progression upset the adventurers we all know which side the developers will appease.[/p][p]On the topic of precieved risk, one reason I support increasing the risk of less than pristine, when failing to counter events, is to create visible risk for those that do not craft. If the effort and risk is all front loaded into gearing up, all the customer will see is an easy combine - a reward with no effort. Appearance is important in getting adventurers to accept crafting is balanced with the familear risks of adventuring. This is why I am also a proponent of damage and drains from failure to counter events affecting both parties involved in a commission combine, let the adventurer be involved. If a risk of missing pristine is real on every high end combine, then a reliable crafter will build a reputation and be sought after.[/p][p]To facilitate specialization, while still allowing the dedicated to pursue every recipe available from faction based Master Trainers, penalize earning faction with opposing trainers. If you study under the Plate Armor Trainer, the Chain Armor Trainer is less likely to trust you with Fabled secrets. The mechanic was in the original city faction writs. One could build faction with everyone, but it requires more effort than specialization. Combine this with a secondary crafting component (the primary is a drop) that must be purchased from the Trainer. The component can be Lore, No-Trade, with charges so one must maintain their faction to continue purchasing it, yet have it on-hand for multiple combines.[/p][p]In regards to the philisophical debate on crafter compared to adventurer: Recipies are our equipment, the combine our encounter. Like a raider, better equipment allows us access to better encounters.[/p]
I don't like the counter faction idea, it was annoying in adventuring and it'll be more so for crafting considering the costs. I also think there are less onerous ways to add risk. What exactly does the crafter risk anyway? Or the adventurer in the proposed? Debt? I'm a bigger fan of simply removing non-pristine combines,making a failed craft not only more common but also consume a component(recipes dependent of course) and adding challenge mods to recipes(something they seem to have but is not utilized). With the current counter mechanic, make your skill vs the combine skill determine if you get a crafting event since if countered they are a guaranteed success. Recipes are far more than our equipment. Actually there should be crafter equipment but that's another debate. Recipes are to crafters what spells are to mages - and those who played EQ1 should really understand what I mean. A crafters entire value rests in them because without them he is nothing.
Crafting progression should not be limited by what is going to tick off adventurers and what isn't. That's what got crafting into the mess that it is now. If this is how the developers want it, then fine, they need to come out and say they have no intention of making crafting a rewarding profession in this game in and of itself and instead want it to be only a sideline to adventuring. Then those who wish for a more meaningful system can stop butting their heads against the glass ceiling here and leave for a game that is friendly to their profession.
[p]I am not a game desinger, but if I were, and was using the term "risk" in the design of the game, this is how I would define it.[/p][p]Risk is about the possibility of putting in, or investing time, without knowledge of the reward. Risk is also the possibility of your actions adversly affecting other around you.[/p][p]In adventuring, this can be seen every time you run an instance for a single rare drop. You may run that instance for weeks on end, and never see it. If that is the only item from the instance you want, each time you run said instance you are risking the fact that the item you are after may not drop, yet you are still putting time in to get it. Also, risk in adventuring can be seen when you do something stupid and wipe your group. Your pulling aggro or whatever you did was noticed by the group, cost them all a small amount of gold, and also costs them the time it takes to get back to where you were.[/p][p]In crafting, well, if you fail a pristine combine, you still get something, as opposed to not getting a drop from a mob you fail to kill. You get XP from non pristine combines as well, which failing to kill a mob does not award. Sure, the item you make from a failed pristine combine is not as good as the item from a pristine, but unless you are doing a rare combine, its not really an issue at all if you fail pristine. Mastercrafted combines are currently the only part of tradeskilling where "risk" is even remotely involved, and even then, its only a small amount of risk. It is harder to fail a combine in crafting than it is to kill an even con solo mob while adventuring.[/p][p]My honest suggestion if people want risk added in to crafting is to have failed events do ~25% damage to the crafter, mis-countered events doing ~50% damage. Bring back dead crafter bots at forges. Also, make certian combines not provide anything at all for a failed pristine, especilly unusual combines like the ones in Nest, HQ combines, and the raid dropped recipes. Make adept 3s require a pristine to return anything other than dust. Then you have a system that can adversly affect other players, and can require time invested without the desired reward. [/p]
[p]By the above statement, you seem to think that Vine-Wrapped Boots will sell for ~1p, as that is the price range crafters are currently working in. Not going to happen my friend, not going to happen.[/p][p]Your above statement is like saying surernt tradeable fabled drops are ruining the market for crafters. Its plainly obvious that this is not the case. If/when these items DO make it to the broker, yes they will sell fast. They are so far the only tradeable raid dropped equipment in EoF. Of course people will want to buy them.[/p][p]As to seeing the future, of course I can not. I can, however, look at a set of circumstances, apply a small amount of logic, and come up with an educated assumption as to what will happen.[/p][p]My statement of "You will not lose a single customer from this, thus it doesn't affect you." still stands. [/p]
I assume by not provide anything at all you mean that it returns the primary component. I can't imagine all the issues that would come up if they didn't but they'd most certainly be counterproductive and lock out new crafters. What's mentioned is not risk. So what I die at the forge?What does it cost me as long as the important part of the combine is spared? You summed risk up nicely in your description but,for there to be real risk there has to be content. Recipes alone are no more content than mobs alone(raiding excluded...to a point) or spells/equipment alone; it all must work together.Because of the nature of recipes and crafting(supplying another with goods- ideally in a game like this with a component they provided), risk is much better assigned to events to gain the knowledge(recipes)vice the act of creation itself. Using my favorite example, you're helping the Militia defend an outpost and must keep up your end of the supply chain based on your class. Every failure costs you ground and brings you closer and closer to losing the event. The reward is based on the level of success. If the militia actually gains ground then congrats, you get the best potential reward recipes selection(and gear if they tweak a few things).If they just hold the line you get a decent selection. If they lose a little ground then you get a mediocre selection. If they get pushed back to the fort gates and barely survives....you keep you life. If they lose? Come back next week and try again. Any reward level can be removed but still, it's event based, responds to how attentive you(singular or plural) are and rewards performance.
Like most of what you say, the problem is that's the truth. I'll quote an earlier post- My response was based on the whole reason I started posting on this when I first saw the patch notes. Absolutely right, I won't lose any customers and it does not "affect" me but, one of my competitors just gained in a manner that has nothing to do with the sphere of crafting itself except the combine. As stated in another discussion we had, this person might not even be a crafter by choice thanks to KoS yet, the "government" just picked a winner by providing him with an advantage. Were crafting better fleshed out or able to stand on it's own in the recipe respect this would not be as big an issue but what has happened now is a substantial tiering of the marketplace. We hashed out how I really hope you're right but, for the sake of argument let's say I'm right- this has been added and SOE follows it's historic stutter step then drop of crafting? These recipes will still be there and nothing will have been added. Even if they do eventually add those recipes at all tiers, and I'm just talking adventuring now, how long do you think it will take?Months at least I'm sure to have it in any volume that matters. Assume I'm right and it takes 2 months before those raid crafts hit the broker. How does a non- raider crafter compete? Even if those legendary and below recipes hit, it'll only bring general crafters a bit closer to the market potential(still competing with regular adventurer crafters too), not on par with it and none of the gains will be made through crafting itself throwing the whole co-equal pitch they used out the window for all practical purposes( and no harping on how it's always been that way). How does it feel to compete with someone who has a "government" advantage and doesn't even like what you do?And before anybody pipes up, I have nothing against adventurer crafters but, to deny that there are many who otherwise wouldn't be there and have professed their abject hatred of crafting is to deny a truth posted on the forums about once a week from the launch of KoS until EoF brought in commissions.
[p]Deson, you are looking at how status is used now however, part of my proposal would have changed that dramatically, adding alot more pressure on those points for other uses (like skill upgrades), so it would be harder to have those points available to even consider using for the purpose of getting that gear.[/p][p]And the numbers I threw out were off the cuff, they of course need to be balanced. It might need to be 100k per tier for the fabled, or 200k. Until all the other costs were incorporated it would be difficult to judge. The key (in my mind) is to create a requirement of time and also a requirement of difficulty in the combine. Those are the two key things (to me) that are missing from us being able to make some major quality gear.[/p][p]Also remember, you as a crafter would already have to have your fabled gear before even considering doing a fabled combine for an adventurer. You would also need to make sure you had enough of your 'corrective' materials and extra fuel for the other costs that I think should be added as well. I wouldn't be surprised if you might not be looking at the possiblity of 5-10 minute combines (or perhaps even longer) with all the trash combines to get ready for it. But the time factor to even get to that combine would be in the order of hours.[/p][p]Also note, I'm not talking about making fabled gear that would rival x4 drops from named. I'm looking at the ability to make stuff that would be 'intro' raiding gear. Probably somewhere just short of relic quality, or maybe just make this a variant of the relic (from what I'm told, relic isn't anywhere near the best. I wouldn't know for sure, I don't have any of it But I can tell you, raiding in mastercrafted is NOT a smart idea )[/p][p]Another thing you could do is make the material no trade, so the person who wanted the gear would have to commision you (and thus do the writs/status items) themselves and run it via a commission. That would add in the adventure side you are looking for as well.[/p]
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: So, at least as far as the status use part goes, you're expecting wholesale game change to make this work or am I still misunderstanding you?The combine is still a very bad place to put that difficulty because has the effect of "pricing" crafters out of the game by being so onerous that they just won't do it- we're back in sub-combine chainmail/arrows days with a proposal like that. People will take the annoyance for an event, they very likely won't every time they wanted to provide a service.Let's assume people do go through it, how much will they for that much effort to make it worthwhile? Realistically for what you suggest I'm charging at least 50pp- and I'm cheap. But, since you said it won't be top gear, why would I bother? Drops will still better and cheaper. Noaani, if you read this before you post hold off on answering my hypothetical for now and help me answer this question- why is the best bow in the game even tradable?! I'm looking over this stuff again and it's unquestionably some of the best equipment in the game and it's tradable- that's just not right even if it was a straight drop. This stuff should have been no-drop no matter how it was introduced.
Crafting shouldn't be 100% independent of adventuring or never interact with adventuring, if you want it 100% seperate, why do you want them in the same game? But.. there shouldn't be -only- adventuring (including raiding) or NPC purchases for ways of "progressing" crafting. Currently the only quests with a crafting component of any sort (other than the How-To 1-9 quests) require adventuring of some level. There are -adventure- quests in EL that have recipe rewards, there are -adventure- quests in the Nest which have recipe rewards (and are well done as that), there are advanced recipes as -adventure- drops, there are fabled recipes as raid drops (and were before LU#24, but broken after DoF), there are recipe components as raid drops, three are heritage quests (adventure quests) with a crafting component, etc. Aside from that you can purchase your essentials books from an NPC (and advanced books from a faction merchant in Maj'Dul, but only after you gain faction which requires.. drumroll... adventuring). But, there are NO means to obtain any crafting recipe after level 9 by -crafting-. That's the missing element.
[p]Yes, it would requires some changes to the system. It would require craftable crafter gear, it would require the books being moved off of mobs and onto vendors and quests (for masters). It would also a limited reintroduction to a variant of subs. It would also require that recipes become something like access quests, instead of books. [/p][p]Though honestly, 25-40p for a piece of fabled gear is probably not too bad a price, so you are probably in the right ball park at 50p [/p][p]The last recommendation has the individual who wants the piece to buy it from his faction instead of the crafter, which incorporated your desire to have the adventurer involved, so that would take SOME of the pressure off of the crafter supplying everything. But it would require both a financial investment and a time investment on the part of the adventurer/crafter, both of which is needed to justify making these advanced recipes (IMO).[/p][p]My guess is, it would probably cost around 2-5 plat for just the combines needed, (not counting the cost of gearing up, etc, which would all be crafter progression, no adventuring needed for that part) and you would still need the primary. It should be expensive, you want this to compete in price above legendary gear. But I do agree, there has to be an interaction, but where I differ is the amount of interaction (I think). They shouldn't be interwoven to the point where one can not advance without the other (which is what we have right now for crafters), but there contact points should be at the combine and at the market for finished goods and harvestables (assuming you do not harvest your own goods). [/p]
