Bleed through...from the post in the beta forums, some clarification please

Discussion in 'Priests' started by Loke, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. Mermut Well-Known Member

    With the current mechanics, unless your group ward is getting 'used up' (or somebody is running out of range for a strat) there is zero reason to keep single target wards up on multiple people.
    Keep umbral up and a single target on the tank. Soul Shackle is mostly just for the ab mod now, if umbral isn't getting used up.
    Your single target direct heals (and torpor) are more useful this expac than oberon or ancestral on multiple toons.
    Songwind likes this.
  2. Loke New Member

    That's what I've been doing mostly, just an old habit with the single target ward. My main point is that the experts effectively have 75-80% bleedthrough.
    Songwind likes this.
  3. Snikkety Well-Known Member

    If anything there isn't ENOUGH bleedthrough in heroics. A friend of mine plays a defiler, and can literally heal a competent group with just his group ward. I myself play a templar, and with Xenolith and Repent, I can just cast them then hit my group heal every once in awhile and be fine.
  4. Mermut Well-Known Member

    He is NOT healing it with just his group ward. He's using maelstrom and nightmares (with totemic tossed in now and again) to cover the bleedthrough. Defilers can keep overtime heals up on their group almost all the time.
    In heroics, all healers have the tools to solo heal.. it's just roughest on mystics because they have so few non-wards and people spike down to yellow while their group ward is still at 500m and their group heal is still on cool down.
  5. Snikkety Well-Known Member

    Defilers from their 1.0 get a heal applied to every ward, and a HoT on the group ward from AAs. I have literally seen it, he solo heals with just the group ward.

    Edit: Again I say, with a competent group. Not pugging.
  6. Mermut Well-Known Member

    Increasing BT isn't going to make a defiler less capable of solo healing. It WILL make it even more difficult for mystics.

    Making a healer's primary heal nearly worthless (for ANY healer class) is a bad mechanic.
    When 75% of a healer's heals are 75% or more worthless.. that is a bad mechanic. Period.
    Daalilama, Songwind and quisling like this.
  7. Bentenn Active Member

    lets face it.. I've run zones without tanks for bulwark because of so much DPS.. there is so much dps in groups now.. you could get by without a healer probably... so my guess is he/she can get by with group wards.. an average group, they are using more...
    Snikkety likes this.
  8. Raff Well-Known Member

    Yes...but a "competent group" is the key phrase here. Anyone in such a group likely has over 200 mill health. And it is much easier to heal & keep such a group healthy. Especially since that competency usually extends to dps as well.

    It is in the less competent groups where shaman healing becomes a pain...or challenge. Depending on your mood, I guess.

    I use my main group ward mostly, with the heal proc from the shadows tree. Which is available to mystics also. I'm also spec'd for draconic protection from the Dragon tree for my single target heals. Use that mostly for the tank (very handy) Totemic protection & Ancestral channeling for snaps / Hail Mary heals, lol.

    I can dps while healing. But how much damage I can do depends a lot on the group.
  9. Mermut Well-Known Member

    The thing is, the heal from the shadow tree only applies if you let the ward expire. Defilers ALSO get a heal on cast. If mystics want the heal they have to let the ward completely expire.. and leave the group without any coverage. That's fine if soul shackle is up, but it takes minute babysitting of your spell timers to get the heal from 'natural expiration' without leaving the group 'naked' of wards. And since mystics in pugs are already waiting with baited breath for transcendence to come back (once soul shackle is down), most times they can't afford to let umbral warding completely expire for the bit of heal it gives.
  10. Bentenn Active Member

    totemic is your friend.. rotated with channeling, torpor on yourself or squishy, group heal, soul shackle, it's not completely dismal.. it's not near as easy as it used to be, but it's not as hard to do as most make it out to be either..
  11. Mermut Well-Known Member

    It's definitely doable, but the group also constantly spikes down into yellow (when totemic is down) while transcendence is on cool down. It's.. mentally painful.. to have 3/4 of my group ward still 'up' on my group (and have it expire with 50% still on it) while the group constantly spikes down into yellow.
    There is something.. off.. about healing mechanics when the primary heal for ANY healer class is the group direct heal while the total of their 'class type heal' (ward, reactive, hot) is 1/4 or less of their total healing out when solo healing.
    Daalilama and Songwind like this.
  12. Daalilama Well-Known Member

    Makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine tbh and CD's healer nerfs on healing are a extremely shortsighted decision.
    Mermut likes this.
  13. Clintsat Active Member

    For what it's worth....healing hasnt been this balanced for several expacs. If you want to only spam wards, wards will have to be much, much smaller. I'm just not sure that can be accomplished in the current gear meta.
    Snikkety likes this.
  14. Mermut Well-Known Member

    It's not a matter of 'only spam wards'.. but when 3/4+ of a healer's heals are only 1/4 effective, there's a serious mechanics problem. It's a problem when the signature set of abilities of ANY class are made mostly ineffective.
    I also don't understand why 'spamming your signature heal type' is only considered 'bad' when it is wards. Should clerics stop relying on reactives and druids stop relying on HoTs as well?
    Note: I've played a warden as my primary healer forever, this is only the 2nd time (since I've been playing) that druids are the top of the healing pack. This is only the 2nd expac I've played a shaman with any regularity.
    This isn't a 'my toon sucks' complaint. This is an observation of unbalanced mechanics based on the numbers on the logs and observations in game.
  15. Clintsat Active Member

    Templars can't just spam reactives and even druids do not just spam hots. All healers use more than just their signature heal type.

    The issue, as you know, is that wards without significant bleedthrough are just too powerful. The only way to balance this is to either have bleedthrough or the wards have to be so small that they constantly break. Unless you make it so wards do not benefit from stats, stat bloat will cause the no-bleedthrough wards to become game-breaking rather quickly.

    Right now, shaman make excellent heal partners to the other classes, rather than making them redundant.
    Snikkety likes this.
  16. Snikkety Well-Known Member

    I agree that healing is kinda in a weird spot. The thing it comes down to is, I think, an overnerf in response to how dominant shamans have been. In my experience having played every healer this expansion except a Fury, the weakest is definitely mystic because of the combination of surge damage, bleedthrough and a difference in class focus. The balance issue is with defilers being able to heal using their wards, and having other tools to keep the group alive such as Nightmares that makes them a more powerful class regardless of the ward nerfs. However, the bleedthrough nerfs really did need to happen because otherwise there would be no competition for classes like Templar and Warden who both have superior healing output combined with good warding potential.

    Balance isn't a black and white issue and it seems as of right now, Mystic just happens to be the class that gets the short end of the stick. There's always one, and there likely always will be.
  17. Snikkety Well-Known Member

    Absolutely this. I love having a mystic as my secondary healer (I am a templar) mostly because the guy is one of my good friends but because he can cover my *** and make my job a whole lot easier. At the moment they seem to play more as utility healers, which is definitely a role.

    I can however see where Mermut's complaint is about them being noticeably less powerful than other healers.
  18. Mermut Well-Known Member

    The problem, right now, is that the bleed-through is excessive. As noted, when wards.. ALL wards.. are less than a 1/4 of a solo healing mystics heal out in a heroic zone (when there is at least one ward up 100% of the time), that's not just 'not spamming wards'.
    The situation was made worse when the devs REMOVED the bleed-through information from the logs. It's clear that some mob abilities have more (and less) bleed through by watching health bars and remaining ward amounts, but it's guess work without that log information.

    I find it ironic that the same exact arguments that were used when druids were purely and exclusively 'back up' healers are now being used 'against' shaman. NO healer class should be relegated to back-up healers by the mechanics. Too many players don't mind if some class is 'suffering' due to mechanics as long as it's not a class they play :(
  19. Heccie Thump Member

    Totemic makes everything easy with shaman, well certainly as a defiler. Coupled with Maelstrom and Nightmares I don't really have any stress when doing Heroics, whether T1, T2 or Events. The key is setting Totemic up properly. WIth all the bleed through on every Heroic and Raid mob the best advice I can give is to create a macro for it and always cast it on yourself, never on the tank. This way, everyone in the group gets a heal based on the bleed through damage, including the MT. Basically 15 secs of peace and tranquility.
  20. Mermut Well-Known Member

    Totemic is 15 sec every 60 sec.. and the reuse starts after the 15 sec expires. Ancestral Channeling is 5 sec every 90 sec.
    When those are down mystics are stuck waiting for the reuse on Transcendence (their group direct heal) while their group spikes down to yellow. This is in expert zones where everybody is geared up.

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