A question for discussion: Crafted item quality levels (crude, shaped, regular, pristine)

[p]Ya know .. I don't get Alchemist Insight that often, either .. I've never gotten the uber rare re-act that gives you a rare on any of my crafters. I have gotten that Re-Act that completes your combine without using ingredients .. 2x .. ON MY PROVISIONER! Blah! what a waste! The only Crafter I have consistantly gotten the Insight bonus for is on my Tailor. Not a crafting session goes by without me getting the option for Tailor's Insight. [/p][p]But, either or .. Re-Acts are pretty random that's why I suggested just tweaking all the Alchemist's Spells to give +1 more Dust on Pristine than the other scholars. We get like 2 right now don't we? I'm a terrible Alchemist. lol I only chose that profession to help the hubby when WORTs were required *shrug* double blah. Maybe, if DominoDev is feeling really generous she can up it to +2 more Dusts per Pristine for Alchemists. Since our Adept 3's require the most 'rare' of 'rares' (loam T6+). If she feels that would be flooding the lower levels with poisons and potions .. she can even only give the +2 more Dusts for T6 on up. Since anything under isn't that hard to acquire*. [/p][p]*Basing this theory on the fact that I have mostly a full stack of rare loams for T1-5 but only have a single loam for T6 & 7 .. I harvest .. A LOT! .. [/p]

I am a refuge from Star Wars Galaxy. I originally ran a business out of the bloodfin server with my Sister, Brother, and Brother-in-law. I loved the crafting system there, the expirimentation system was awesom. For those that have no idea what im talking about. In SWG you recieved a number of Avialble Expirimentation Points based on your Crafting Level. These points are used to improve the quality of your craft. For example, as a weaponsmith i could improve the damage, minimum and maximum, speed, durability, and action cost. Expirimenting on each one could result in lowering other stats. Because of the number of points and the random outcome of the expiriment you could only Very rarely, max out a weapon. Database wise this system was a nightmare causing server crashes from to much database space that was required, the system was scaled back and made less random a year ago but fundamentaly remains the same, at least last time i played. When i came to EQ2 i was very disappointed in the "Pristine" only market. In fact the crafting system is already so simplistic you could pound certian abilities and always hit pristine. What I would like to see: [ul][li]Remove the Entries for Crude and Shaped.[/li][li]First two ties will be the stats of Regular Crafted, Posibly return some materials based on Con, For example a Grey Item will return half of what it takes to make the item. [/li][li]Set the 3rd Tier at pristine, This will be the intended Level of most crafts.[/li][li]4th Tier make them a little better then the former pristine and add a "special ability"[/li][li]For the 3rd and 4th tier, NO materials will be returned, EVER![/li][li]The durabilit on craft for the 4th tier should be set to about 1/4 the current level, points removed should be evenly distributed to other tiers.[/li][li]Crafting Events should be less forgiving if you fail them, they should be used to prevent Macroing.[/li][ul][li]Also they should appear more often[/li][ul][li]I generally see only 4 per craft. Make it 8[/li][li]Positive results should always occur when you hit them, most of the time i see very little increase[/li][li]Negative effects should one again make you take damage, in %'s[/li][ul][li]Burning one Trade Ability should result in death in the TS instance (Prevent Macroing)[/li][/ul][/ul][/ul][/ul]One Additional Feature Id like to see: Insead of TS Writs, id like to see a feature from SWG brought over to EQ2, this feature was never used since the reward vs. time was always to low. Contractor, you recieve a crate that you can add crafted items to, when the crate is filled you return it to cash. For EQ2, these crates could be a request for Armor, Weapons, Furniture, ect. Non-specific crafts (IE: Instead of making 10 Tin Greatswords) You make 10 Tin-based Weapons. Similarly you can add items you have already crafted insead of having to take the writs and craft them after. Also with this type of system, if you get a request for a item, you dont risk making something that you may not recieve in your inventory. Ive done this several times, take out writs and forget then someone asks for a item i happen to be making for a writ....

[p]Agree with Rijaki here in that the item expected and valued in the market will be the best item that we as crafters can produce. Most anything less than this will likely be vender trash. So if the current pristine was the "base" or third bar, then the general public would expect or demand what we could make on the fourth bar and we would be right back were we are now - selling to the vendor anything other than the fourth bar. [/p][p]The only way I see this as being different is that if lesser items the crude/shaped/regular would be similar to the final but with different stats and useable at earlier levels, kinda like what we originally had. But this would not allow the clean-up of the database that this thread originally thought of. [/p]

Long thread and I only perused it... I made this suggestion a few months ago in one of the many discussions about the (bad) decision to remove sub-combines. Removing sub-combines was supposed to simplify the system, make it more maintainable and extensible in the future. But it seemed to me removing non-pristine crafted items would accomplish that to a much larger degree. Beghn, unfortunately, disagreed. If non-pristine items are removed, I think the crafting process should follow a curve that starts out in the negative direction and then swings back into positive territory once you pass, say, the third quality level (which would be the break-even point). So: You stop at crude level, you lose some stuff. You stop at shaped level, you lose some stuff. You stop at third level you make your item, but don't get anything back. You go to pristine and you make your item and you also get stuff back. You said you have some ideas on how to make crafting more difficult/interactive. How about making missing a counter actually hurt? Missing a counter and getting a critical success is ridiculous. And not having any event to counter and getting a critical failure is equally ridiculous. I think the pristine bonus shouldn't be a pristine bonus, it should be a "discover" bonus similar to killing a namer for the first time or looting a precious item for the first time. You should get it at the third level in my scale above. The "get stuff back" at pristine level should be akin to your fuels and materials returned that has been talked about in this thread. I would also like to formally request that sub-combines of some form be returned to the game. (I believe you did admit that was something of a mistake, but it would be a *lot* of work to do something about it now. But you can do something about it for T8...) Crafting, for me, was completely ruined when sub-combines were removed. I know many don't feel the same way, but there are many that do. Weaponsmiths always had what I felt was the appropriate level of subs to their recipes. I could have done without refines (WORTs specifically) but 1 or 2 levels of sub-combines would restore the "process" of crafting that I found so fun. Maintaining sub inventory, knowing how many to make to level through a tier, using them to level... these were the involving aspects of crafting that hooked me so thoroughly. Taking them out took out all my interest. (To be fair, I gave it a fair shot and leveled a jeweler from T2 to 69 with no subs, and I hated it.) I only craft now to outfit my (or friends' ) characters, or custom orders when someone asks in channel for a Weaponsmith for two hours and gets no response... :wink: BRING BACK SUBS IN SOME FORM!!! Please.

That's a differetn take on it, I think I like it. "Pristine Bonus" is a phrase with more than one meaning. Usually it means the discovery bonus you get the first time you make a Pristine something. Occasionally it is used to refer to the fact that crafting to Pristine nets you more XP.

The last time I got dumped to desktop mid combine. Currently if you go LD or crash during a combine it's annoying but chances are when you come back you'll have a sub standard product that you can dump on the vendor to recoup the fuels. The only time you really lose out is if you get dumped before you complete the first bar. This risk is going to be increased by 3 bars if we ditch the 3 lower end products and don't get fuel returned. Given the presumed cost of T8 fuels crashes are going to start to really hurt and getting dumped on a rare with double fuel costs doesn't really bear thinking about.

BigChiefJJ wrote:

[p]In my opinion both those solutions have their flaws. Sages aren't very likely to raise their broker price. *maybe* request price. I have no issue with them taking the dust market away from Sages completely. Now re-think this a little. The purpose of an alternative source is so Alchemists can make those rare poisons and poitions without paying an arm and a leg. This will still affect our market in Dusts. If they take that market away (which I hope they do). It would cut into profits enough for it to be worth some thinking for those that remove it or devalue it. Maybe enough to give us another type of viable product in replacement but not of that type. *looks optimistic* [/p][p]It would increase the price of imbues some, but we would not see the prices we have been selling on the broker I could almost guarantee that. If theres a cheaper alternate source that's less dependent that's the way it will go. [/p]

[p]I agree with the first part, but not with the removal of critical failures. When fighting a MOB I can make sure my poisons and potions are applied, prepare all my short term buffs, pull without social to a safe spot without adds, and still have the MOB resist my attack or critical against me. Sometimes the RNG will throw something at you beyond your control and you have to adapt and overcome. Critical failures, particularly during timed writs, have added much excitement to my crafting.[/p][p]Further, I find it ridiculous that a crafter can fail to counter any number of Major events and still create a perfect Pristine item. It seems that after a certain amount of failure perfection should become unattainable under the current system. Every failure to counter an event should reduce the maximum possible durability by some amount, if an item is earned by a less than 'pristine' build.[/p]

see my post up just a few from this, it's so ridiculous I don't even bother with them (event counters) anymore, unless my direct goal is to make a pristine item. If I'm just leveling another crafter I don't even aknowledge them. granted, I don't craft as often as some on here, but I have a 70 tailor, alchemist and provisioner with a few others in the 40's and 50's. The four tier system is only beneficial for speed crafting (mashing just the non-durability buffs) or passive grinding where you let it all up to chance and hit no reactives (my prefered method). Nothing is worth making to sell that isn't pristine with only a very few exceptions. For example -- my weaponsmith, when he gets his two or three new recipes for a level, he'll make each a pristine once, then it's repeat / begin and ignore.

Blah, I only just began reading from the top of page two and I just wanted to voice my support for how it was. I too loved this. If SWG type variability was implemented as well, that would be even better, no doubt!!! You know, I mean, look at it this way Domino -- everyone reading this can pretty much be biased to the "Nest" crafting response because that is what you highlighted as suggestion with your post. Everyone really enjoys the fact that you have the interactivity you do with us, but, at least review it with that consideration.

This is exactly the reason I think there doesn't need to be a fail-safe recoup for those that have the off-chance linkdead. Resource return can be good if you are a lazy tradeskiller and don't like to risk your bum harvesting in the world (i.e. buying platinum or just supplying your toons with such from having developed mains already), but only then. Otherwise, I think you should pay some price and lose your raws and such if you can't commit the trivial focus it takes to get a "pristine" item (and by some unlikely token, a "regular" one).

Here's someone else who was able to spot the diamond in the rough, too (hehehe no offense ;P)! I mean, all this refresh got was Rijacki's post on page two and then his on whichever page I just found it on...and now mine...so...yeah! I just want to keep the options in perspective. :roll:

[p]I have seen so many ask for the old way and want to add that soe is not in habit of going back to the old ways in things. [/p][p]I want to say only thing I liked about tradeskill change back then was not having to deal with all the subcombines. As for what they did to the recipes & items stats I hate it for I feel that was the real downfall in player made items for all items were reduced so much so that even any new players coming into EQ2 only wants mastercrafted now for that is only thing that compares to treasure items now days. When before common made items had better stats just as good as treasure items and now commom player made items have really horrible stats that no one don't want them for they are way worse then treasure. To me that is why player made items have bad returns on the market. I really feel that is what needs to be fixed for outfitters, and some stuff that is wearable made by woodworkers and jewelers. Common should be just as good as treasured and mastercrafted should be just as good as some of legendary stuff out there and I would bet you would see player made stuff have need in EQ2 in again![/p][p]On why this thread was made was to post our opinion on changing the levels of quality, umm there is an idea I would like to suggest is, make it where we get the fuel back or product no matter what since we make product as it is now we at least get are $ back for fuel. I have to say I really would hate to lose rare but if it's not pristine then it in sold npc anyways as it is now. I do like in 'The Nest' is how if you happen to go LD or whatever cause game to quit while in the middle of making item that some how the game knows this and gives us back our stuff no matter what lvl of quality we have.[/p][p]Another option if it's possible give us choice of these items on what grade of quality we make for example we for some reason can't get past the second bar and we are done then a window pops up asking if want finshed product or a reduced amount subs & all fuel back with each higher grade of eventualy getting nothing back on last bar, in that way we can still get exp if we accept finished product for I may be wrong but isn't the nest like if you don't get pristine you don't get no exp unitl product is pristine?[/p]

[p]Changing the crafting process into a more difficult, less experience, slower experience, more tedious process, extending the process, fear of a lost product, or an increased time sink will not enhance nor improve the tradeskill experience or the life of it. Instead, all of these things will confuse, discourage, and defeat new tradeskillers, as well as the veteran tradeskillers. [/p][p]The life of tradeskilling is not in the difficulty, .... etc ... etc .... of the process; rather, it is in the value of the finished product to both tradeskiller and customer. [/p][p]If tradeskilling becomes a land mine of labor, fewer people will begin a trade, and fewer people will continue to tradeskill. I hope this will not happen. [/p][p] [/p]

Cinnimon wrote:

Nobody is asking for a full-on reversion to the prior.

You don't need fuel back if you make a mistake and get a return graded for level. It still has use and would sell, no doubt. There are many people who would purchase some crafted equipment if they could use it a bit earlier and have some of a new tradeskill tier's advantages.

Just to reiterate something I said last week in the wishlist thread:

I got a crafter to 60 before the interims were removed, and I've also gone from 0-70 since then, so I do see both sides to the different versions. But like I said above, that's the way it is right now. And incidentally, having just moved into my new (RL) apartment and spent all day today assembling Ikea furniture, I can only say that Ikea really needs to look at removing all the interims too .... I wonder if I can petition their customer service section ...

But...but...putting it together is supposed to be a memory...Isn't it? :XD:

*giggles* Grats on the new apartment, too.

[p]After reading the entire post and thinking about it... what about this idea...[/p][li]Crude level --> returns 1 goldstone. [/li][li]Shaped level --> returns 1 goldstone and 2 wood.[/li][li]Regular level --> Rotating Golden Meat Bucket.[/li][li]Pristine level --> Rotating Golden Meat Bucket + 50% Exp bonus.[/li][p]This would allow those who get shone upon by the RNG a chance to make the item still, and give us a chance to level a little faster if we want to spend the time to make everything pristine. Also if you want to rush the order you can stop at Regular level and make the items faster.[/p][p]To go along with this I know Domino mentioned balancing the number of recipes, I am all for that, my highest crafter is a weaponsmith which was one of the hardest hit. Also would love to see the variety of weapons come back, plus perhaps get some new armor types, new jewelry, etc...[/p][p] Another idea I had while reading one of the posts... When you get the "Insight" , have the item go quickly to pristine and perhaps even have special items created. This item could be equal to legendary for a common crafting and a minor fabled for a rare combine. [/p][p] [/p]

[p]I am all for the change to one quality product, as long as all previous non-pristine world/server firsts are removed from the database as well. Such as: [/p][p]'Player A discovers crude blackened iron thing a ma jig!'[/p]

[p]I like the nest method. Personally, when I was raising tinkering I rarely made an item pristine more than once, and even that first time wasn't really important. Most of the time the recipe would return the 2c cost ingredient rather than the 20s one.[/p]

The trouble is that you are much more likely to get a rare from harvesting then an innovation. Since rares are no longer so rare harvesting, they should not be that rare from tradeskill events either.