A question for discussion: Crafted item quality levels (crude, shaped, regular, pristine)

Egeis@Lucan DLere wrote:

Best idea so far for my taste. Countering twice in a worng way should have consequences. I don't care for fuel or raw returning because you lacked to do it the way intended. I do care for a system making the life harder for people who use crafting though they don't like it. A system where the crafter has to be awake to even reach Tier 3 ever and where you need some luck or special equipment to ever reach Tier 4, as intended sometime past of EQ2, sounds best. I would even prefer to get equal xp no matter what tier you reach. You goal for the highest Tier should be quality only. Real crafters do care for more than xp anyway.

I do like the:

Each item can go through 4 passes (crafting processes, each one more difficult than the previous) for the sake of example, I'll use armorering since that is what I'm most comfortable with.
Pass 1: Adamantine Breastplate (5 adamantine, 3 roots, 3 pelts, 10 fuels). Requires 10,000 progress
Pass 2: Reinforced Adamantine Breastplate (Adamantine Breastplate, 3 adamantine, 3 roots, 3 pelts, 20 fuels). Requires 20,000 progress (still only 10k durability though)
Pass 3: Superior Adamantine Breastplate(Reinforced Adamantine Breastplate, 3 adamantine, 3 roots, 3 pelts, 40 fuels). Requires 30,000 progress (still only 10k durability)
Pass 4: Mastercrafted Adamantine Breastplate (superior Adamantine Breastplate, 3 adamantine, 3 roots, 3 pelts, 80 fuels). Requires 40,000 progress (still only 10k durability)
version as well. Perhaps you can think of a way to combine both

In any sensible database system the amount of unique data for each version of an items should be very small. The information needed to describe the stats is small and everything else, particularly the artwork, should be shared. Besides the primary tradeskills have many fewer recipes for now than we had before LU24. So the argument about reducing database space so we can have more recipes makes no sense. Nevertheless, after some time to think about it I still support a reduction in the number of varients. But not in a one size fits all form. Those types of recipes that do not produce varying products now need not be changed - adept IIIs, potions, provisions, etc.. Recipes that use a rare should use the nest method returning the rare one anything less than pristine. Common recipes should have 2 varients - the pristine one, and a vendor fodder one that can be sold to recoup fuel costs (with no stats to save design time). Apprentice spells should give App II on anthing less than pristine so that if the changes do get backported they can share the App II info with the spells available from trainers. Imbuing recipes should use the nest method, returning the primary component on anything less that pristine. There is one condition though. The next method for rare recipes makes them less, and there is no chance of you using up an expensive rare to create a vendor quaility item. So this change would reduce the risk involved in rare crafting. That MUST NOT be used to justify further reducing the quality of the products.

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:

oh well, I've given it my best, made my suggestions, now I'm back off to lurker status again... I'll come back when the system if fixed, if it is ever fixed. Otherwise, I give my best wishes to those who keep up the fight to make tradeskills worth a damn, but I should have stayed out of it, it simply upsets me far more than it should for a game.

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:

The dedication and skill can be proved through quests. While I agree much deeper changes need to be made to the process, those changes aren't in the scope of this thread. However, nothing stops them from using timed writs, faction building or chain quests like the TS starter quest. They could even have special components earned through events(complete with lockout timer). There are a lot of options available right now that don't turn crafting into an endurance match and make you feel like you are really involved in something besides just service. I'm all for breaking the down some of the dependence however, this doesn't really do it. Then again I'm also a firm believer that the best recipes should come from crafting while the components come from adventuring. What you propose though does nothing except removes rares and replace them with a crap ton of harvests. And the demand difference would be that the current situation is caused by a very poor itemization scheme that swung too wildly from one direction to the other. What you propose is essentially the situation that got this thread made in the first place: if pristine is the best and readily available, why settle for anything less? Given we have a new TS dev who's doing great so far with feedback, why not start a thread where you list out what you think needs fixing?

Deson, in many ways you and I are not far off in what we want, but the primary difference right now is, I do not believe the current system is strong enough to support 'quests'. The process is too broken and trying to build a nice system ontop of a broken foundation is a recipe for disaster, but I'll take you up on your suggestion, I'll work up a post stating what I see as broken and how I think it should be fixed

[p]It doesn't matter to me much if this is changed to a Nest set up...what concerns me is the value of an item after being made...[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p][p]A lot of products that can be made...whether they are pristine or not end up as vendor trash. There is no value...and is not a viable piece of equipment.[/p][p] [/p][p]Take Artisan for example....you can level to your subclass in under 30 minutes without ever needing to really 'learn' what you are doing at a crafting station(s). The quest that's given to Artisan's do not tell you what the 'buffs' do...why you need to use them, or why they are even there.[/p][p] [/p][p]I loved the starter quest on the Isle, which previously showed you briefly about crafting, by having you craft an iron spike. It was quick...simple, and easy. But you didn't know anything about the ‘buffs'...[/p][p] [/p][p]Also the tutorial quest is a joke....If you want a tutorial quest....then put in a tutorial quest...not...go bake me a cake, build me a chair, yaddayaddayadda....[/p][p] [/p][p]How are they supposed to know how to bake a cake if they don't know how to look at the recipe? Or know what materials are needed? How to get their recipe journal up? [/p][p] [/p][p]Another is...an adventurer will level too quickly and has a plethora of low level quests that give armor, weapons, food/drink, bags, jewelry, etc that it is extremely rare for someone to even buy a Tier 1 crafted product...it's a waist of coin really.[/p][p] [/p][p]As it stands right now...there is no need for the Artisan to exist anymore...and would suggest removing it and allowing crafters to choose their profession at the subclass level. The recipe lists for Artisan can be split into the 3 subclass's...and allows everyone to reach their final profession sooner.[/p][p] [/p][p]You may get a small portion that will purchase Tier 2...however it's still very minimal. Tier 3...Tier 4 do pretty well...but by Tier 5...EVERYONE is looking for Mastercrafted, Adept 1's (adept 3 preferred), and Master's. It's become pretty much the norm that by Tier 5...you need to have good gear...which is considered mastercrafted as a minimum.[/p][p] [/p][p]I rarely see any handcrafted items being sold by that Tier. So...would it really matter if you made it to where we only make Pristine? Would you even need to call it pristine since...in essence...Pristine is the norm?[/p][p] [/p][p]You still have to worry about the fuel spent on making these pristine items, and at tier 5 costs 15+ gp for a 100 stack of fuel, so roughly 12-15 of your pristine items made...HAVE to be sold back to the vendor to gain back the costs from the fuel.[/p][p] [/p][p]Sure you could put them on the broker...and hope...HOPE they sell within a week, but in the mean time your still spending money and not getting anything in return. So, if you're trying to level your crafter you HAVE to sell it back to the vendor to get more fuel.[/p][p] [/p][p]However it doesn't much matter, because as I said...Handcrafted/App 4's and such just do not sell very well, if at all after a certain Tier. So...freeing up space in the database for more recipes is great...however the crafter still has to wonder if they will have a viable product they can make that will be a desired item, WITHOUT having to use rare materials.[/p][p] [/p][p]How about re-instituting quests that can actually lower your costs, but raise the value of your product when sold to the vendor. This was supposed to happen at one time when they had the Professional Societies...but they no longer exist.[/p][p] [/p][p]New recipes that in essence are the same item however provide different stats. Such as a Rapier...it provides + to INT...While great for say a Bard...it's not ideal for the Rogue/Pred that wants to use the AP line which requires a Rapier/Piercing weapon however primary stat for them isn't INT...it's STR. [/p][p] [/p][p]How about putting in a Research icon, that works similar to Creature Cataloging, that can allow crafters the ability to learn recipes from Items in the game or on NPC's, such as a chair in Kelethin or a Shield from one of the Lucanic Knights. Not everything can be researched...but much like the Transmute ability...you would be able to arrow over the item, if it turned blue...you can Research it, remains Red...it can't be researched. [/p][p] [/p][p]It may take a few tries to Research it to get 'Basic Essentials of the Lucanic Knight Shield' however when you do...you get TS experience for successfully researching it. So...it could work like this[/p][p] [/p][p]'Basic Essentials of the Lucanic Knight Shield' Tier - 3/4[/p][p] [/p][p]'Intermediate Essentials' Tier - 4/5[/p][p] [/p][p]'Advanced Essentials' Tier - 5/6[/p][p] [/p][p]Possibly even have recipes that are Alignment specific. /shrug[/p][p] [/p][p]Or guild specific recipes that allow for the Guild Heraldry to appear on armor. As long as you're in the guild you can wear the armor...you leave, the armor is moved to your inventory...[/p][p] [/p][p]How about Recipe sharing...works much like Quest Sharing...however you can share your recipes with another of the same crafter, provided they meet the level requirement...[/p][p] [/p][p]Anyways...in all...changing the crafting to make Pristine only is a good thing...however you still have to factor in is that after a certain Tier....HANDCRAFTED pristine is still just vendor trash. Just as making Crude, Shaped, or Normal would be...[/p]

[p]I remeber in the beginning of the game that when we got other than pristine that the stats was different on each piece and not just a increase on basic stats making a lower lvl piece made in more compertable to a different classes of charters IE one piece of armour at a pristine lvl would be good for a guardinan lets say but the same armour at a lower lve would be more suited for a clerk also i remeber there was a level difference also lets say you have a lvl 20 charter they cant wear a crafted cheast piese till lvl 24 in the beginning you could craft a shaped and your charter could wear that. Im not happy with the nerfing of the final resuilts as well i have older pieces on some of my charters (have alot of alts and I been know to turn of my xp expernce to be able to complete the Quest that are available) and the older pieces are better stat wise than the new. As far as my crafting ability goes I very seldom even in the begining got less that a pristine unless that was what I wanted .I dont miss the sub combine for sure but the armour made now the stats almost at least til you get to the uper teirs are not worth making you might as well do the armour quest or go for droped pieces most of the lower lvl pristines go to the npc venders at the lower teirs just to get back some of the cash for the making of them. But I have found that sony does what it wants in the 7 years that I have been playing the eq games and I have played them all I liked the crafting system in eq1 and eqoa i like the experient option to find new recipies and not reling on droped reciepies also i prefered the havist skill for fishing in eq1 and eqoa better it was a mini game and was more rewarding that the harvist methid of fishing we have now.[/p][p]LOL back on subject I would not mind just a pristine result as long as it was worth the time to do it and the return of raws on a failure would be good the begine crafting system had that if you completelly failed to make a product. One other thing in my inventory i have goten some thing like blacken iron bits (exsample) as of this date i have not found any use for these items other than taking up inventor space and since im a pack rat and dont like getting rid of anything LOL it can add up [/p][p] [/p][p]Jebadiazoran Mc`Hughes LVL54 Fury eq2[/p][p]Jebadiazoran McHughes Lvl59 Druid eq1[/p][p]Loka BearTamer lvl 60 Figher EQOA[/p][p]Guild Leader and Founder EQ2 chapter of The Defenders of the Lost Realm nek server[/p][p]Guild mentor EQ1 chapter of The Defenders of the Lost Realm Luclin server[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]

Frankly, i dont' want a Tradeskill change. The first two tiers do have use in the fact that you must make crude and shaped items before you get to the higher quality stuff. Think about it: If you're building a table, do you immediately go from lumber to a marvelous piece of furniture? No, you have to craft it and shape it. at first is crude. After a little bit of shaping and crafting, it becomes shaped. Then it looks like a regular table, and after that, it becomes a marvelous piece of woodwork. It simply follows the natural progression of crafting. Its true that you don't really stop at the first 2 tiers, but really, a crude chair would be made if you took a large black of wood, and put branches for legs on it. Shaped would be made if you actually nailed the branches a shaped piece of wood. A regular table is if you were to craft each of the pieces of wood, nailing them into a table. Pristine is when you were to sand it afterwards, and put a VERY nice polish on it.

teh comedyrouge wrote:

I also don't understand what the fuss is about. Sure, few people want items that are less than Pristine, but the many suggestions in this thread seem to be leaning towards making pristine easier/more likely. That isn't a solution. In honesty tho, the only reason I can see for removing crude/shaped would be to create space within the existing database structure to add additional levels above Pristine. i.e. It would be harder to adapt the database to store 5-6 versions of a product than remove the bottom 2 and add a new top 2. Assuming Pristine retain the same stats as current, and the same difficultly to create. I would support adding an additional 1-2 quality levels above pristine that are harder to achieve than the current Pristine and would have enhanced stats above the current Pristine level. In fact, make it two additional levels. Then scrap the imbued versions of products and instead allow an item to be 'refined' by using the current imbue agents. e.g. Current System: (generic int item) Crude: +12 Int Shaped: +15 Int Normal: +18 Int Pristine: +21 Int New System Normal: +18 Int Pristine: +21 Int Respendant: +24 Int Perfect: +27 Int Pristine + Imbue = Resplendant Resplendant + Imbue = Perfect

I have skimmed through all this and I did not see it mentioned, but I wanted to ask that you not remove the bonus XP you get for making a pristine item the first time around. Also, I am a new crafter, but it does seem like getting your fuel back would encourage exploits, unless you are very careful how you implement that. Thanks, Matt

[p]I vote for pristine or bust for T3 and up. [/p][p]In T2 product generated on bar 3. In T1 product generated on bar 2. Make sure the crafting trainers warns people that their product is going to be much harder to make a finished product.[/p][p]Following the dev's idea as to why the fuels were returned, return the fuels for all other quality levels.[/p][p]Once I get my durability buffs, it's a very rare occurance that I'm actually paying attention and don't make a pristine item. Any non-pristine items I make are off to the NPC for the fuel cost or, with rares, off to the transmuter. However, I'd be willing to get nothing but fuels returned with non-pristine rares - a little added danger, hehe. For the record: I DO NOT lvl up with rare combines.[/p][p]As for xp: I vote for pristine or no xp.[/p]

My first instinct was reactionary. Leave things as they are. But upon re-reading I find myself liking your ideas.
I am a crafter. I never craft anything except pristine and mistakes (of which there are few). However, in some items the difference is the number of slots in a pack or the status reduction and those do end up on the market. Hmmm, maybe they are not worth worrying about.
What we crafters most need is a market for our products. I am a sage. I can't compete with adept 1. All apprentice spells are a waste. Now that rares are not impossible to find, there is a market for Adept 3 spells, but that is being eaten away at by master drops.
I don't know how you can make a viable crafting system. I just know you haven't yet.

We need houses where you can hang chandeliers and that have enough items allowed to fill the place. 500 is not enough for a manor in SQ when you count every rose. Furniture made from rares should be nice looking. Most crafted furniture looks like it is covered in mold.
I have a transmuter, but I haven't much hope of ever making a T7 adornment that requires mana. There should be a way that those who are willing to do the work can get the reward. I invested months becoming a transmuter. It was a challenge. But it isn't rewarding. Transmuters should be able to transmute in a commission system so that non-transmuters can have their no-trade items muted.
Tinkers should be able to make items useful for the general player, not just for other tinkers who won't buy them because they can make them themselves. Stop nerfing the tinker toys. They are a great equalizer. Let them be sold to the highest bidder. If a group can't find a templar, having someone with tinker toy mind wipe might make a quest possible. In a game that can't give us enough players to fill out every group that would be a way to keep the game fun for all. It won't make a group decide not to invite a templar. We are lucky to find four players for a group, let alone six. Please don't expect every adventurer to put in those long dull hours of becoming a T7 tinker. That's what ruins the game (rote) , not having the tinker produce stuff different classes can do.
In all crafted items let there be properties that can equal what is dropped. I shouldn't have to raid to ever hope to see a fabled item on my conjuror. She has been wearing the same muddy brown robe from the nest in KOS for over a year now. I'd like to be able to buy or make her something nice. Why are you hoarding all the good stuff for a few elitists who want to make footsoldiers out of the rest of us before we are allowed to share in the raid spoils.
If you won't let us paint our whiskers green, please give us some pretty options. Tailors would love to have a variety of tailored things to make. My tailor would love to be able to make pink leather if a customer so desired. All you purists who are afraid of the place looking like a circus are way off base. Colors work great in EQ 1. If we can't paint ourselves, let us order clothing and armor in colors and designs we choose. My conjuror, the sage in the muddy brown dress, agrees. If she can't have fabled stats, at least let her have what she has with a little color.
Finally,don't listen to all the maggots that think boring and grinding is the only way to make something worthwhile. If the only way you can make something hard to do is to make it take hours of repetitive keystrokes, rethink it. I'd love to be able to really craft something. Why not make sages solve a logic puzzle to make an Adept 3 spell? Or have a carpenter paint a pretty picture in order to paint a pretty picture? Give us a challenge that is fun to do. Let the tailor learn basic stitches and then have her weave them together in a maze.
(Today one of my characters finished a heritage quest that she started six months ago. I was in a small guild that didn't have enough players to do all the quests. We merged ourselves into the biggest guild on the server. There we became peon footsoldiers. People in that guild were always complaining they couldn't find a group for a quest. Everyone was on a raid. A few of us went back to the old small guild and started looking aggressively for players to group with, not to join our guild. With a lot of begging and pleading in OOC we finally got enough players together to kill the last mob in the Draco Mortuus quest. Hey guys, a game that makes quests so hard to do that you need uber players should provide us with the uber players to play with. If you can't give us the players, give us ways to make ourselves uber, And let crafters caft them

I assume that you do not have a jeweler. Handcrafted resist jewelry does sell at T7 (though hardly at all below T6).

I'm relatively new to the game (started February 2007 as a WoW refugee), but I've been spending a lot of time crafting recently. Not that I'm an expert by any means, as I don't even know what the "nest" refers to specifically, though I understand what it's serving for in this discussion. Anyway... It sounds like the core issue, from a development perspective, is that development/design time and game resources (in the form of database consumption) are being expended on items no one actually wants. Some of the ideas here propose a new mechanic to crafting that would change the experience and end result for users. Now, if the existing mechanic has a problem, that should be looked at separately. But I would think you wouldn't want to change an existing mechanic just because of development restrictions (you wouldn't do this if the mechanic was a good one, for example). What about thinking, therefore, about the time and data size in a different perspective? Rather than thinking too deeply about each item's four states, why not have one item, but have a state flag that indicates which of the four it has? Then modify the stats for the item based on that state. Naturally that logic impacts other parts of the system, where the stats have to be retrieved and evaluated, but do that once and it applies for all items. Using pristine as the base stat (since that's what people aim for, as indicated), then perhaps the states would reflect quality that is, across the board, 70%, 80%, 90%, 100% of pristine. So if a pristine item gives +20 to a stat, then the 2nd-level quality would give +16 to the stat. This would achieve the goal of reducing development/design time and database consumption, while allowing the existing mechanic to largely remain in place. All that being said, as a provisioner on one of my alts, I like being able to just get to that first level of quality. I collect far more food mats than I need to make food and drink for the amount of adventuring I do, so for many items I've started just making the lowest quality to get one item instead of working to pristine for two. For that food, my time is more precious to me, and it takes more than twice as long to get to pristine (hence the food per minute I can make is faster at the lowest quality). I'd be sad to lose that and have to spend the time to get to pristine every time in this case. So that's a vote for preserving that aspect of the game mechanic. Finally let me say that I really appreciate seeing developers and other folks behind the game out here soliciting feedback in advance of making design decisions. That is so refreshing compared to the game I came from! Thanks for your time -Cayce (Permafrost)

[p]Am I being totally silly If I suggested that the current 'imbuing' semi-rares would make a good substitute for dust? then they would be less useless and unsaleable, and would again be rare in some meaningful sense? and kind of common sense sense too?[/p][p]Also, simple nerfing everything to "pristine" only seems too simple somehow. Too flat is perhaps a better term. I dont actually have a solution though, without a vast amount of work and design involved with a big risk of nothing good at the end.[/p]

I think the best advancement that could be made in this area would be to automate the crafting stations and remove tradeskill professions and levels completely. Anyone should be able to gather up the raw materials, approach the appropriate crafting station, select an item to be made, and the finished product appears in main inventory. No recipes to learn, no mindless hours at the keyboard grinding out one piece of vendor trash after another, no writs to fall asleep while doing. That would be grand.

No thanks.

Aelestar@Lucan DLere wrote:

[p] That is actually how crafting was done when it first appeared in EQ1. First you got the quest to make the item, then you gathered the materials, then you made the item. You don't like it because this is how EQ2 crafting should be done, not this borked up crap that we've had since launch.[/p][p]Oh, and I forgot to say that having to choose between spending your game time in a harvesting time sink, or in a tedious crafting time sink, or in actual game play is not what gamers want. I realize that the teensiest percentage of subscribers don't play the game to play the game, but rather play the game to craft virtual stuff, and also make an awful lot of whiney posts about crafting, but that really is the teensiest percentage of subscribers. Most players are adventure players first and crafters second. The game really would not suffer if player crafting were completely removed from the game. That's just how it is.[/p]

[p]Whiney posts? Pot this is kettle, kettle Id like you to meet pot...[/p][p]Removing crafting is not likely to be a popular suggestion in a crafting forum.. and "why isnt this like EQ1" is always desperately sad.[/p]