A question for discussion: Crafted item quality levels (crude, shaped, regular, pristine)

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Domino, May 16, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-Deson Guest

    That I like! And if it works out it can be extended to other classes as well.
  2. ARCHIVED-KerowynnKaotic Guest

    [p]You have several responses in here that are aimed to muliple people but I just want to clarify my stance since I can't quite make heads or tail about who you are directing this part of your response to ... [/p][p]I would like a system that gives back at least Fuel costs up to the 3rd step, in some manner. Pristine (4th) is the final product only (if you want to give us a few roots .. woot!). I would NOT recommend giving back Pristine Version AND Fuel costs or even part of fuel costs. Pristine is the final product. If you want to sell it to the vender afterward and it sells for exactly the same amount as the fuel, that's fine but the only way someone should make an additional amount of money on a Pristine product is by selling it to the Open Market. [/p][p]Again, let me state that the fuel compensation request is only for 'grind'/'normal' recipes. Rares should have risk involved with them. If you are willing to let us get back the Rare on less than Pristine then losing the Fuels and Raws up to the 3rd step is more than a reasonable risk subsitition. This I totally agree with. [/p]
  3. ARCHIVED-Namai Guest

    [p]I only just looked at this thread for the first time, and I can't be bothered trolling through all the pages to see if I am agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, but I would like to see the following:[/p][p]1st/2nd Bar - No returns, no xp[/p][p]3rd Bar - Some or all of the fuels returned, no raws (at T8 I imagine the fuels will be rather expensive and the raws are well, free. For this reason I'd prefer to see the fuels returned as opposed to harvests), no xp.[/p][p]4th Bar - Item, xp[/p]
  4. ARCHIVED-Youngone31 Guest

    Pristine or Bust is a sad way of doing things but I guess its the way it has to be done these days. Giland is right though, crude, shaped, regular, and pristine use to have different stats. I still have a few earings from the early days. Fashioned earing had more wis while pristine had more int. Also not making a item a pristine gave you the ability to equip it at an ealry level with slightly diminished stats. Most people did not want items that was not pristine eventhough they had good stats on them. I remember a tailor pretty much crying in chat because she did not get pristine on a rare item. Pristine was str>agi, regular was str<agi. I talked her down and puchased the item because it was a good item, it just was not pristine. Those days are gone so I guess it no use harping on them... Back to the point I could care less about pristine or bust but then again, I do not sell items anymore. I grew tired of all that. I just recently starting a weaponsmith and yes it can be a pain in the rear at times. Almost anyone can make a pristine item these days so that not a problem. I say focus on the real problem and make all the tradeskills more even. Its not fair for certain classes to make a level off of 10 items and others requiring fives times as much. Since everyone is so worried about pristine, make all trade work like the secondary trades. You create the item you want on the first bar and receive some raws back on the following bars. Have the skill up the same and just totally remove xp from tradeskilling. Makes it even for everyone.
  5. ARCHIVED-Wingrider01 Guest

    [p] Try this idea[/p][p]Level 1 - pristine item created normal expierence no returned items[/p][p]Level 2 - pristine item created, .2 additional expierence given, 2 fuel returned as no-value items[/p][p]Level 3 - pristine item created, .3 additional expierence given, 2 fuel returned as no-value items[/p][p]Level 4 - pristine item created, .4 additional expierence given, all fuel returned as no value items[/p][p]Sell back of created items lowered to account for returned no-value fuel,[/p]
  6. ARCHIVED-Rijacki Guest

    Since the RNG hates me, that would mean I'd never get any Dust at all. I rarely even get Alchemist's Insight as is and have only gotten the other two a couple times since they were added.. about 2 years ago. Oh and I do craft a lot.
  7. ARCHIVED-Wingrider01 Guest

    Pristine or bust is the eq1 way, is was the pits in that game, that is why the number of trade skillers in eq1 is so slow. No thank you please, it only makes me sneeze, casual tradeskilling will run a great chance of dieing if that occurs.
  8. ARCHIVED-Mystfit Guest

    Pondered from all angles and I like the idea :) I agree, why offer something no one will use. And it falls in line with provys who no longer make different levels, only types of foods.
    One note, and forgive me if it was mentioned, I only skimmed the pages of responses, remember there is a quest series in EL, given by Stout-someone, that asks for (oddly) tier 3 quality items for two or three of his quests. You'd have to tweak that quest to fall in line with this change.
  9. ARCHIVED-BigChiefJJ Guest

    [p]I'm seeing a lot of risk versus reward talk, but this discussion is not about risk versus reward, it's about removing the non-pristine versions of the products produced. The basic argument that I'm seeing is that we have to have some type of risk; either loose fuel cost and or only make a product when we have at least 76% durability and 100% progress. Do adventures only get a chest when they kill a mob (100 % progress) and keep their health at 76% (durability)? No they don't so why should that rule apply to crafters, who are creating inferior products to what you can get adventuring. If we are going to talk risk versus reward and make it so you have to hit pristine to have a completed item make the products we create desirable again (I know, not what this thread is about, but my thoughts). Most of the hand crafted items I create, crude/shaped/normal/pristine go straight to the vender anyway, as I don't want them taking up broker space, they sell for a couple cp or sp over buy back prices anyway. The exception are the consumables, totems & arrows. [/p][p]Currently we are getting a product back at 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% progress in process, each with a different name some with different stats but all worth the same amount of coin, in the brokers eyes and all providing back some XP. We need XP and either fuel cost or a product we can sell for fuel cost at each "stage" of completion. Once you hit the crafting max the XP doesn't really matter, but for those still grinding ever little bit helps and if I can get some XP and my fuel back from less than pristine results I'm happy. If I can't then I'm not happy, as I just wasted time and money with no reward. [/p][p]I think most of the discussion/suggestions have been geared with mastercrafted items in mind as these are the desirable products that we create. Lets make sure we create a system that will still work on handcrafted as well as this is what most grinding is done on. If I don't get an item back while using a common ingredient (handcrafted) it doesn't bother me if I get fuel cost back, but if I loose my rare and only get fuel back I'm unhappy again, at lease a crude/shaped/normal master crafted item can be used.[/p][p]Getting more dust in the world would be really nice - as someone using poisons I will go through at least 3 of each type (red, blue, purple) of poison per night, so I'm using at least 6 dusts per week. Dusts are selling for 20-30 gp on my server and poisons are selling for 3-5 gp per vial. So I'm looking at 1-2 p if I buy the dusts and then pay an alchemist to make them (plus alchemist cost) or 2-3 p if I just buy the poisons. Can we do this without taking away a saleable product from Sages, Alchemists, and Jewelers? [/p][p]Wodreaux - Ranger / Woodworker[/p]
  10. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    [p]If all the fuel is returend, even if it is no-value, and the item itself has a sellback price of anything (even 2 copper) this is creating a way for players to make money from nothing.[/p][p]/invitebotstoexploite? [/p]
  11. ARCHIVED-Antryg Mistrose Guest

    On the dusts issue - Adding more dusts to the adept3's that alchemists produce would not help, the price of spongy loams (shared by 2 classes and jeweler/alchemist) is way higher than either moonstone or acrylia on any server I've seen, and the demand for fighter adepts is a lot lower. Spells aren't consumerable, and making their byproduct consumerable means that eventually (i.e. now) the money is in the byproduct, not the spell). Personally to make Grandmaster poison/potion at a reasonable price, I've stopped buying dust, and started buying moonstones (mainly) and acrylia's for 65-80g and making adept IIIs of them which sell very slowly (for 1plat). Scintillating dust on the other hand is priced on the broker from 25g+ (so 50g back to the sage for a pristine combine) - 2-3 times more profitable than the spell. GM poison/potion is selling at 4g+ (so thats 80g per rare raw). I'd recommend combining 2 ideas I've seen posted: [ul][li]Give sages a consumerable autoattack ranged ammo used by mages (and priests?)[/li][li]Use the imbue raws for rare poison/potion production (and possibly remove AdeptIIIs from this).[/li][/ul]Jewelers will still be left out a bit, so maybe a consumerable for them too (why not EVERY crafter in fact?)
  12. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    BigChiefJJ wrote:
    Why?
    If they make it so that we only get a product and xp if we pristine the combine (and make combines similar to the ones in the nest), it would actually add some meaning to a level 80 tradeskiller.
    If they did that, no one could bot/afk craft to 80. I think that would actually be the best thing they could do for crafting.
  13. ARCHIVED-Wingrider01 Guest

    then decrease fuel returned by one, or make the crafted item no value to the npc vendor, light years ahead of no item or pristine
  14. ARCHIVED-Amana Guest

    [p]Have to say after sub combines/combines were taken away TSing really didn't appeal to me. At the moment i'll just go in make some things to level up then go back out. I'm not as hardcore as I used to be when I first came to EQ2. [/p][p]It would be nice to see Tradeskilling completely revamped in that it's like EQOA where you can get common/rare gems and add them into a recipe making a more unique weapon. [/p][p]As for the change your suggesting for me it can go either way. It sounds like it would help out people who can't afford the crafting materials. However it could also hurt the EQ2 economy if too much is given back. Overall though I wouldn't be opposed to getting some materials back from making a pristine whatever. ;) [/p]
  15. ARCHIVED-BigChiefJJ Guest

    [p]There are a lot of really good crafters out there that can get a pristine result with very little effort. I consider myself one. There are crafters out there that cannot, as someone put it no matter how many ‘how to get pristine' guides you link or publish. The original design of the game was to have people strive for pristine and return lesser items when pristine was not obtained. The game has evolved so that pristine has become the norm. Is this why we saw a downgrade (hate to use the nerf word) in the quality of crafted items - it was too easy to create them? [/p][p]I'm not thinking of the bots/afk crafters, they will find a way to bypass any system. I'm thinking of the crafters out there that are trying to level a toon in a legitimate way. The "new guys" that are in their 40's and 50's where a stack of fuel costs 15 gp and money can be hard to come by if you don't have higher level friends or toons or know a few tricks. If they don't make it to pristine they loose that fuel money and don't get any XP. I would not mind this IF I could make a decent profit on the handcrafted stuff that I have to make to level up. Problem is handcrafted stuff sells basically for fuel cost. Crafting in my 40's& 50's was supported by my adventuring class and not by the crafted items I made. [/p][p]If we want a level 80 crafter to mean something we need a system that takes skill or planning to create items. If we only give XP at a pristine level we will still have bots getting to level 80, the people I see it hurting are the ones that don't want to invest lots of plat, its going to cost about 10-12 gp per combine in T8, bit of a hefty price to pay for failing a combine on something that would get sold to vender anyway. [/p][p]I've never done crafting in the nest or in DFC, was never able to win any of the items needed to make stuff in the nest and don't have toons in DFC's level, so I don't know how that works. But I do know that currently I can get XP and fuel cost back for making it to any level of item progress crude/shaped/normal/pristine, and I don't think this should change. [/p]Wodreaux - Ranger / Woodworker
  16. ARCHIVED-BigChiefJJ Guest

    [p]The problem with dusts - Dusts have value, they are used to create items that are desired by the community, Rare potions and poisons. People will pay for something that has perceived value, we saw that when crafting got downgraded (items did not have value, people stopped paying for them). So basically whatever you make as the primary ingredient for potions and poisons will sell. [/p][p]Currently the crafty scholar can search the market and buy the rare needed to make the spells (1 pp average on my server) make the Adept 3 of his choice and sell it on the server for 1.5 pp. Now scholar is left with 2 dusts that they can sell for 25 gp each. For the scholars 1 pp investment he now has 2-2.5 pp minus fuel cost of 1 combine. Removing dusts as a by produce will cut into profits from scholars severely. [/p][p]Option 1: Make the imbue-ing things the primary component in the rare potions and poisons. This will definitely put more raw materials in the market as these are fairly easy to find, but it will also make the price of them go up tremendously. After all the market will bear what the rich will pay for their toys. Side effect of this would be that the rares for Adept 3s go up in price since the scholars are missing out on what they consider part of their profit (the dusts).[/p][p]Option 2: Keep dusts as they are, but add the imbue-ing things as an alternative to the primary component in rare potions and poisons, so that they can use either the dust or the scintillating whatever. This will increase the price of the imbue-ing things on the broker and give them a bit more of a purpose and should not mess with scholar profits much (I don't think). This puts a supply of primary components into the market that is not tied to other crafters.[/p][p]Wodreaux - Ranger / Woodworker[/p]
  17. ARCHIVED-FoxRiverRanger Guest

    [p]If they are going to retool the crafting system then what better time to look at the quality of the crafted items? Taking the 'risk versus reward' equation into account during the design process for a new system provides the groundwork for improving the quality of hand crafted items. Allowing an item to be created no matter how poorly a build goes, barring outright slag, removes all risk of failure. I strongly believe that without a visible risk of loss easily understood by non-crafters there is no way to tilt the balance on handcrafted items so they are more desirable. How many adventurers see raw materials as free goods just dug out of the ground? Fuel has a price tag; that is easily understood.[/p]
  18. ARCHIVED-Hukklebuk Guest

    coming into this a bit late, but my $.02 : any crafter I run up now, I don't even bother hitting the event counters each 4 of 5 levels or so. I hit repeat and begin and go about doing something else on my other account and rinse and repeat. Why do I do this, because I think it's incredibly boring and tedious to counter the events, unless you are really trying to make something pristine for someone. It doesn't affect the prices on the tons of trash I sell back to merchants, and nobody buys anything other than pristine unless they are really hard up for that item, in which case if they wait a day, any tradeskillers of that trade and level will notice the vacuum in the market and probably fill it. I'd hope you ditch the first three tiers, add more items to be crafted, different looks to items, tint the items based on where the materials where harvested from a little more than happens now. You could do so much more with your time and ours if you $hitcanned those first three items. Frankly I appreciate you asking, but if it were my decision, I'd remove them and all the time and effort I would have to spend applying stats to inferior crafted items could be spent elsewhere. You're not going to dumb down crafting, it's not like it's rocket science anyhow. Really, how much more difficult is crafting with one desireable item and three undesireable as opposed to having the one desireable item. Frankly if you remove those first three tiers, I'd actually have to pay attention when I level a crafter. It's not hard or difficult, it's time consuming, there is a difference, I found a way to ignore the time consuming part by ignoring your counters. Is that a hack, no, just means I get junk for my efforts, but I can level nearly as fast as someone pushing for pristine every combine. I merely ignore the game mechanics. I get my skill ups by paying attention for one level, maybe two then it's back to repeat, begin, move over to other pc and do something productive. As far as the spells / ca's would go - appII is available on merchants, if you can make an app III, you can make an appIV - how many of you make a living off of selling AppII and App III spells / CA's? How many people ask you "hey Mr. (insert scholar type) could you make me an App III for Smoking Fists of Horror, I really don't want the App IV or Adept 1, I think they're overpowered...." I like your idea Domino, go for it...
  19. ARCHIVED-Ulutia Guest

    [p]just another late idea,[/p][p]make pristien the base item, then for each teir after that it would randomly add +1 to any stat.[/p][p]Example[/p][p]an item that is crafter with four teirs of durablity might have +1 STR, +1 WIS, +1 Power (totally random). But to make it so these items don't become the new "pristine" standard, apply the law of deminishing returns on Time and Skill.[/p][p]For example: (please note the times used are for example only)[/p][p]Regular item (Today's Pristine) 1 Minute to caft[/p][p]Regular item with +1, 2.5 Minutes to craft[/p][p]Regular Item with +2, 5 Minutes to craft[/p][p]Regular item with +3, 10 minutes to craft.[/p][p]This would make all levels of these items desirable. Crafter would price them according to the effort it takes to make them and not just the materials.[/p][p]Just a though.[/p][p]Ulutia DaBadd'Kitty[/p][p] [/p]
  20. ARCHIVED-Rijacki Guest

    No matter how it was set up, the "standard" would be the best item. How often does any scholar (above T3) sell apprentice IVs? how well do handcrafted items sell vs mastercrafted? mastercrafted is considered the best crafted and so is seen by many as the defacto "standard" for crafted items (with looted items generally seen as better than that).