A question for discussion: Crafted item quality levels (crude, shaped, regular, pristine)

I couldn't find exactly what your referring to in this massive thread. But are you thinking about taking them away from spell/ca makers or making another source to get them from? It's a bit flaky on sales but it is a decent profit maker for us.

Nolus@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Apparently there isn't enough dust in the world (hard though it may be to believe after a few hours harvesting in Sinking Sands).

I am trying to think of a way to get more dusts into the world, I certainly don't have any intention of removing your rare potions or poisons, I'd just like to find a way for you to get more dusts to make them.


Powers wrote:

All depends on how you look at it, really. How does "cancelling" equate to real life reality anyway?

Perhaps like this:

Version 1 (pristine). I'm at a forge, making a sword. The metal is malleable and my progress slowly increases. The durability of the metal remains high, and my work continues on a long time, until I finally attain the highest possible quality of product. By this time, the coals are almost burned out but I have a superior quality sword in my hands.

Version 2 (non-pristine). I'm at a forge, making a sword. I shovel in some fresh coals and start crafting. However, I lose durability too fast, no matter what I try, and after a shorter time than usual, I'm left looking at a rather mediocre quality sword (or: a lump of raw ore). Happily, since the process ended sooner than if I'd made a perfect product, the coals are still hot and good for another attempt!

Version 3 (cancel). I'm at a forge, making a sword. Suddenly, Screwloose the Mad Tinkerer* runs in, sticks a bomb in the corner, and runs away giggling! Ack!! Immediately I douse the forge with the bucket of water I keep handy for emergencies, and flee for my life. Attempt at sword completely cancelled, and fuel lost.

This is, after all, a roleplaying game. In-game mechanics are just that - mechanics of a game, they're never going to perfectly align with reality. But, it's usually possible to find a way to reconcile them if you try.





* (incidentally, for those who aren't high level adventurers also, this is in fact a real NPC and he really does toss bombs around.)

DominoDev wrote:

While I appreciate the response. I imagine it's easy to get things mixed up with all the talk here. I'm a Sage, I make the dust and sell it, as I don't have an alchemist. More to the point of what I was asking is if you plan to remove dusts from adept III combines? I know your speaking of different sources and as it's one of my money makers I'm worried about it as a Sage not an Alchemist. It's the only other profitable thing sages make so try not to kil the market if so.

[p] The obvious answer would be to reset amazing reflexes to what it was pre nerf.[/p][p]As far as the loosing fuel thing goes, unless you are planing to greatly increase the difficulty / randomness of crafting I think you are wasting your time providing solutions for a situation that never exists.[/p]

Nolus@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Ah, didn't notice your crafting class. At this point I'm still considering possible options, there are several. I don't know what the best way to do this is, so I can't answer your question yet, but I'll keep folks up to date if and when we may be considering any changes. No promises on timelines (or if it'll be possible to do anything at all at this point), that depends on when/how hard inspiration finally does strike if indeed it does at all! But the question isn't forgotten - either from the alchemist or from the sage side.

Nolus@Antonia Bayle wrote:

And rather ironic that alchemist are the only ones who have to suffer any dependency on another craft.

Rijacki wrote:

We will have revenge! :twisted: (hehe)
Don't you all get dusts from adept III's?

Perhaps for handcrafted, keep the bars but: First two bars, you lose your components but get your fuel back. Third bar, you get your primary component and fuel back but lose the secondary components. Fourth bar, you get your App4 and consume all components and fuel. That matches the returns we currently have (where if you blow pristine you can at least get your fuel cost back), gives a slight effort-cost reduction for not blowing it completely, and gets rid of the need for any item quality but pristine (since most people just sell anything not pristine back to the vendor, it seems). Mastercrafted could stay where it is, with only one result and you get no dusts on the first two bars, 1 dust on the third and 2 dusts on the 4th. I'd disagree with the idea of needing more dust in the world, the crafter friends I have have tons of dusts in their banks (to the point where I'm going to start having my alchemist make stuff for sale just to use up some of the dusts said friends want to clear out). The main reason said friends don't make the stuff themselves is that their alchemist characters are retired and craft strictly for the guild and friends, not the market.

The problem with getting fuel costs back (as opposed to raws) is that one can still sell the product to the vendor, making a net profit... and setting us up for load of crafting bots for the plat pharmers again. That's why sellback only gives fuel costs.

Is it possible to do resource returns on handcrafted and nest style on Rare + crafts? Handcrafted practically is just for grinding and a properly tuned resource return would make it that much less painful. It seems like a lot of work is being put in to fix the issues that will come up with Nest style where resource returns don't have this issue really.

Nolus@Antonia Bayle wrote:

As I said in my earlier post, even if every class had an exact equal number of active players and each of them wanted exactly the same number of adepts made, alchemists can only make up to 1/4 of the potential Dusts. Sages, in that perfect balance, would still make 1/2 and jewelers the other 1/4. However, since there are more active mage and priest characters and generally more scouts even than fighters, the actual ratios aren't that perfect balance and sages (those that bother making better than crude) end up making the most dusts and they do charge for them.. a lot. While alchemists get harassed for asking more than fuel cost for essences with person getting the essence made claiming the dusts are -his-, sages generally can charge for the adept and then turn around and change as much or more again for the dust. And then alchemists are villified a second time for the high price of the rare potions and poisons when they have to pay through the nose for the dusts. Some call it pay back for WROTs, but really... most of the gouging alchemists left LONG before LU24... most of them left after the cross-craft books were added (when the highest prices on the broker for WROTs were not alchemists). *shrug* I wasn't a gouger (but I was around in that time), but I have to pay for the majority of my dusts which are not made by alchemists.

Domino, How bout this? Common recipes: Crude, Shaped, Formed - Some fuel back, some exp Pristine - Finished item back, full exp, no items back. I can't see this helping botters more than it already does. All a botter has to do now is sell the items to get full cash back. This won't change anything. Rare recipes: Crude, Shaped, Formed - Rare back, number of secondary ingredients back, but no exp granted Pristine - Finished item back, full exp. Why the no exp on the non-pristine Rare recipes? To prevent someone from leveling up from 1 to 70 completely on a single rare item. Make them earn the exp the hard way with a Rare.

[p]I am all for getting rid of the lower quality and go to something like the Nest type.[/p][p]The hard part of course, is what to do then. What I would like to see (maybe.. just an idea or two..)[/p][p]A rare chance (like 1 in 40) of getting a "Superb". Depending on the item, that could be like harvesting where you get 5 or 10 extra (for food and consumable type items), or an extra random stat added to the item for player wearable. Of course this would also require some extra programming [/p][p]Basically eliminate the lower 3 tiers of quality, if you fail you get fuel back, nothing else. Perhaps on recipes using rares (only) you would also get the rare back - but with like a 15% chance of NOT getting it back.[/p]

They already have something like this in the form of rare tradeskill events. Most common: X's Insight. +250 progress +250 durability (x2 currently), 9 minute buff to enhance your skill Rare: Flawless Dexterity. Guaranteed pristine, and you get your ingredients back! Super Rare: Gift of Innovation. Guaranteed pristine, and a bonus rare depending on your tradeskill class.

[p]I was just making light of it, I know not everyone gouges. Luckily back in the day I came across someone on AB that had an Alchemist and Woodworker that dealt fairly. I'd rather see them remove dusts from spells and use maybe the imbue rares but I would like to gain something decent in that process to make up for it if they were removed. Didn't mean to make you repeat that I just had trouble finding it. [/p][p]Also want to add Sages get the same treatment though we probably have more slack on dusts. I sympathize with you. I no longer take requests and work only on the broker except for guildies because I found it a waste of time and though I take higher risk I make alot more profit.[/p]

For me atleast, I think that the item should be generated on the pristine level, as expected with possibly raws back, no fuels because you used them all to make your item (and XP, with pristine bonus the first time). 3rd and lower levels should possibly give just your fuels (percentage depending on what level) back with no XP awarded due to "failing" so to speak. I think thats the best way to go around, atleast in my opinion ..

True, but what I was thinking was that non-pristine doesn't give back an item. You get fuel back, your primary on the third bar, an item only for hitting pristine. That'd allow eliminating all the non-pristine versions of items from the database, and the end result would be roughly what we have today: pristine or fuel cost back.

Not to terribly long ago, different qualities of items not only had different stats, but different level requirements. For instance, a pristine sword might require a player to be level 40, while the standard version required a player to only be 38, a rough required 36, and a crude only 34. The DR stayed the same, the stats just lost a little bit. This allowed a lower level charactor to start using the next tier higher of player made gear. Weapons, armor, etc. The common items at crude level were quite a bit cheaper than the rares at x2, but was pretty comparible DR wise. Using that model, the 4 levels made sense. Removing that model, the 4 levels are now worthless. Personally, I would rather have the 4 levels with lower requirements for each level back.

[p]Combines have been removed from tradeskilling in the past, so , why not just remove the dust from the game that alchemist must have to make the legendary potions and replace it with a rare harvested material. The dust required to make the rare potions to me is a straggler of a combines that got left behind when tradeskills were revamped. That would remove the alchemist dependence on another tradeskiller for the dust. [/p][p]I have both a sage and a alchemist so I can produce my own dust; however, I know this has to be a problem for an alchemist that does not have a sage tradeskiller as well. [/p][p]To me again the simple solution would be to remove the dust and replace it with harvested rare item. [/p]

[p]One quick way of fixing the problem without completely taking away "money" from Sages or Jewelers is to just give +1 more Dust on Pristine for Alchemists. [/p][p]Maybe even work in a special Alchemist only Re-act bonus that will give the Dust of the tier of the item you are creating .. (like Alchemist Insight / etc .. )[/p][p]That way we aren't so dependent on other classes for our Dusts but the other Scholars can still "help" supply the really, really busy Alchemist. [/p][p]--- [/p][p]I suppose I shouldn't mention I have 2-3 stacks of the bloody dusts for each tier sitting and moldering in one of my storage closets .. I'm rather lazy with my Alchemist. Funny considering she is my Main. *shrug* .. [/p]