A question for discussion: Crafted item quality levels (crude, shaped, regular, pristine)

Greetings, crafters! I'd like to hear your opinions and reactions on a possible change to the 4-step quality system that the tradeskill system currently uses. First, a bit of background explanation is required - bear with me and read on: As I'm sure you're all aware, the crafting system we use has been designed so that each product has 4 different quality levels. One recipe for "a maple thingy" can create "a crude maple thingy", "a shaped maple thingy", "a maple thingy", and "a pristine maple thingy". When the system was originally designed, the "regular" third level product was expected to be the normal, and pristine was an extra-nice result that was expected to be rare. Over the past two years, this is not the way it's worked out in practice; in the system we are now working with, it's either pristine or it gets sold straight to the NPC vendor. The end result is that for each crafted item recipe we create, someone has to create four different items in our database. Three of these items will most likely never be used and will be sold directly to NPC vendors, not to other players. It just seems that both developer time and the database space could be put to better use. As a crafter, I want all the items I can make to be desirable! As we move forward into the next 10 levels of crafting, we have the choice to make of whether to continue spending significant resources making undesirable items at the crude, shaped, and regular quality levels. One alternative is that we could create only one finished product version for each recipe, and differentiate between the crude/shaped/regular quality levels either by the quantity of harvests returned (as in tinkering). Another alternative is to simply require a pristine result to get the final product (as in the Nest recipes). Then we can use the development time saved, and the extra item space, to add a larger number of different recipes and more unique crafted items than we have seen in the previous tiers. We'd like to hear some thoughts and opinions on this possible change. I know that the knee-jerk reaction of some will be "dumbing down tradeskills!" but the process is not actually getting any easier, the 4 quality stages of crafting are still in place, exactly the same mechanics of crafting will remain, the only difference would be in the products returned for non-pristine results. Take your time and think it over. Once you've had a good ponder from all the angles, thoughts would be appreciated on the change in general, and any concerns you may have about any of it. Thanks! Domino

I like the nest style.

On one hand, I kinda hate to see the tradeskill system "dumbed down," as it were. As much I don't miss subcombines, a part of me has always stayed nostalgic for the launch system where it took time and effort to make an item.
On the other hand, Crude and Shaped are pretty well irrelevent. If anyone gets a Crude or Shaped result past level 9, they might just be dozing off at the computer. However, more likely is that they just don't understand their tradeskill abilities if they even know they exist at all. Make thorough, clear tutorials regarding event-countering and using the tradeskill buffs, and you'll get Crude and Shaped results down to the minimum of folks who just ain't paying attention.
That said, you could probably at LEAST change the tradeskill system to a Pristine/Not-Pristine result structure, which would cut the number of crafted items in your database in half.


Side note: I recently tried out SWG for the first time and, though I haven't done any crafting myself, I have been very impressed with the way crafted items turn out. One base item from a recipe, with WIDE variances in the final stats based on the crafter's successes or failures. Every final item is unique! I wish EQ2's system did that - it'd be much more fun than the current system

I'd still like to see two quality steps, (btw thats done away with on the provies anyways).
The same was said for GU 24, free up resources. Well, my provisioner saw a big cut in variety of recipes on top of that it doesn't have the qualities that other tradeskills do yet have seen little improvement.
I don't see it as 'dumbing down' I see it as lets get away with as little work as possible (no offense).
If your going to cut it down to only pristine I would rather see a rare above pristine quality. It felt very wierd without the quality levels after GU24. I dunno, it's like taking away some pride in getting pristine. Not that it's that difficult I suppose.
It would be cool to have some challenge in crafting.

Nest for me too... =)

I know I am a low lvl crafter but I still know how crafting works. I always thought it was pointless to have the lower quality items taking up space, I always thought it would be better to return a generic item that sold back for the same amount as a non pristine and have that one item returned for each recipe in the tier. What ever mechanic you put in place I would rather see more unique items in game than have the same system that is now in place.

Just got one question, would this be affecting only tier 8 crafting or be exapanded to apply on all tiers? If it would affect all tiers, Im a bit worried about tier1, after having started a few new crafters on test, that tier scares me. With only progression buffs, one of my girls dinged 10 before she managed to make her first pristine *shudders*
If its only t8 or if there is some way to make the first levels easier, especially for new people (Ive been here since beta, so I know it gets better, a new person might expect crafting to be that way and stop doin it), then I think its a good idea. It would save a good many runs to the vendor at the very least

I'd prefer the Nest way, too .. I'm not sure I like how the way tinkering crafting was designed, but perhaps I'm standing alone in this situation.

[p]I agree 100% -- lets just have two items as output -- I mean the other items are irrelevant. Even with newbie crafters it is pretty hard to make a crude item. When I first started in the game it was really hard to make a pristine -- but not any more. [/p][p]I would rather see more items added especially for those classes that get too few items per level.[/p][p]I don't think that it is dumbing down crafting to remove crude & shaped -- they were worthless and I doubt if any crafter ever really gets one of those. I think cranking through 4 levels is a real PITA and is taking way too much time considering the place crafting currently has in the game.[/p][p]If we were making really first rate, highly desired items, then I could see the various levels -- but mostly now we make stuff no-one wants and we just crank out to level up. So anything that reduces that tedium gets thumbs up from me!:thumbup:[/p]

Pristine or nothing sounds ok to me too and, probably, requires the least amount of changes. I always strive for pristine -- even on Adept III's (which have no quality levels) -- and consider anything less to be a failure anyway.
Please spend the time saved on increasing the number of recipes and/or increasing the XP earned per success so all artisan classes can level as fast as a Sage. Sages level fastest because they learn more new recipes per level so have more opportunities for the first-time pristine XP bonus.
ps. I was able to level my Sage all the way to 65 (!) before having to repeat a recipe (grind) solely for purposes of earning XP. None of my other crafters (5) made it even half that far without being forced to repeat recipes to level.
EDIT: Having two quality levels would be ok with me too. I remember how difficult it was -- even as an experienced crafter -- to achieve a pristine result without +durability buffs.

Iseabeil wrote:

This is an excellent question. If we do this, at this point it would just be for the new recipes created from now on.

Going forward, I imagine we might eventually look at redoing the lower level recipes to be consistent, however as you quite rightly point out, the level 1-9 tradeskill arts don't allow you to regain any durability so this would have to be kept in mind if lower levels are redone also. Certainly we would not want to make low level crafting discouragingly difficult to new crafters, and any changes to those will certainly keep this in mind.

Almeric@Permafrost wrote:

yeah the swg system is the best one i have ever tried (atleast it was way back when i played, not sure what it is like now).
Changing the system to that we use for tinkering would be nice

DominoDev wrote:

I too would hate to see crafting dumbed down, but I'm not sure this is dumbing down. It may be percieved as making crafting "harder", as there are still folks who struggle to get Pristine no matter how many guides we link. I completely agree that the stepped system is the last vestiage of launch era crafting and should be done away with.

How about a combination of the two ideas above, kind of the two-step system a provisioner mentioned earlier:

At the 3rd bar of quality return some consilatory raws, or the rare if applicable. At the 4th bar return the product, and perhaps raws on Handcrafted only (that would make grinding easier!)


On that note, I announce that I'm shelving the Allakhazam TS database revamp until we hear for ceratin what the outcome will be.

Domino, another thought: What about spells/combat arts? Gonna dump App2-3 and just go right to App 4?

Calthine wrote:

Just curious about what you said on the 3rd/4th bar stuff .. You'd suggest nothing on 1st, 2nd bar .. however returning some raws on 3rd (but no product) and the product on 4th bar only? If so, I agree with you 100% .. otherwise, I disagree I think .... lol And on terms of "dumbing down" .. if it was designed either products only given on 4th bar, or even as Calthine suggested.. I'd almost suggest its a bit more difficult albeit not much really.

Ever-Befallen wrote:

Yes, precisely. Nothing if you really stink, but not a total loss if you get close. I'd also like some raws returned on Handcrafted Pristine, as grinding sucks

I agree on returning nothing on 1st, 2nd bar as its generally easy to get 3rd bar, and returning a percentage maybe of raws back for the 3rd bar .. and only rewarding an item on 4th bar. I think that way is much better, and makes crafting alittle bit more difficult. I'd be happy with or without return of raws on pristine, but generally happy as long as its items given on 4th bar.

Back long ago before LU24 (or earlier, maybe), there was a purpose to the other qualities since the could be equipped at different levels, with lower stats than than the pristine, of course. - a crude gold ring could be used at level 17 - a shaped gold ring could be used at 18 - a 'normal' gold ring could be used at 19 This gave crafters a wider range of levels to craft for. At times, you would want that late level upgrade for that tiny bit of edge or because you're just a glutton for new stuff. I'd prefer to return to that, actually. But... of the alternatives presented, Nest-like would be my preference or many crafters would get lazy and forego the return (though if the return was fuels, it might go over better and encourage better crafting). I don't see removing the products as dumbing down, just data-base trimming. I, too, would be concerned about T1 crafting. There really needs to be 2 sets of reactives given at the start (a set of each type) -and- a tutorial on how to use the arts during the newbie profession quest (even though it looks like they're omitting it for each new starting area).

Resource return would be ideal to me however, that would ostensibly require a retooling of the writ system. Either works perfectly fine for me. In no way shape or form would either change be a dumbing down of the system so don't let any of those arguments hold sway.

[p]I have some trepidation on the proposed changes. I can appreciate the need to save developer time and database space. I also would like to see the more diverse recipes and realize there are constraints on development time and sacrifices need to be made, but I think some tweaking needs to be made to this idea. [/p][p]As far as common combines are concerned they would be the lesser concern for me then rare combines. I believe something different needs to be done when it comes to rare, mastercrafted, combines. The Nest type system eliminates the concern of making a non-pristine combine and "wasting" your rare resource. I for one always try to get a pristine craft and don't typically enjoying messing up a combine and getting a lesser then pristine quality, but it adds in that sense of importance on paying attention and ensuring you counter events to avoid failure. With the Nest system I could sit there all day clicking the create button with no fear of ever messing up. I could sit there and read a book and not even look at the screen and given enough time would still be guaranteed a pristine item. I believe their needs to be some sense of skillfully using spells to increase progress and durability and countering events at the right moments serves some purpose. [/p][p]Aside from that I know personally there are also times when I just don't want to waste the time to make a pristine item. For spells or the like where every quality level is the same item, I'll just fire off crude items to save time. If I were now forced to make pristine items every time to get the spell made, I may be more cautious as to what and who I would be willing to craft for giving my time investment. Well those are the thoughts I have on that currently, certainly an idea worth consider, but I think changes need to be made.[/p]