A question for discussion: Crafted item quality levels (crude, shaped, regular, pristine)

Unless it changed drastically after GoD (when I left), the only crafting that matched was either the racial/class newbie crafting (you would get a mold and be told what -drop- components you needed as your "quest, whereupon you'd stick the mold and the items in a crafting station and click "combine" to instantly and automatically, no fail, get your item), the prayer shawl (again, given patterns and directions requiring drop components) or earring (patterns and directions to drop components). For those who didn't play EQ1, the crafting there didn't use recipes. You had to buy a pattern or mold for most combines. Each combine would use various components which could be drop items or NPC purchased items (most were not both). There wasn't generally in-game information about what components could be combined to make what items and most crafters depended on information sites which had contributions from other crafters. You'd put your various components into a tradeskill container (either one in your inventory or one free standing) and click combine. If the RNG liked you and you got the components right, you'd get an item in return. If the RNG really liked you and the combine was difficult enough, you'd get a skill point (a lot like tinkering and transmuting in EQ2, only with a much lower chance to skill up the higher your skill, not your skill vs the difficulty of the item). In the first several years of the game (up until after the 4th expansion), if you put in components that didn't match a "recipe", the components would poof and you would have no chance of a skill up. Since that's exactly the same thing that happened for a "failed combine", it could be hard to tell if you just messed up the recipe or just failed on the RNG roll. I think there was a message added later (but before the components on a wrong recipe would disappear) that indicated which one. Oh.. and sell back was for about 3/4 or less than the NPC bought components since tradeskilling was -intended- as a moneysink. The few times they had crafting making money through sell back, they quashed very quickly. But, the drop components did have value (unlike EQ2's harvest items) and, for some, their value would increase if they were "refined" or turned into a crafted item. Sure, you could skill up several tradeskills in EQ1 if you wanted (only a few were race or class restricted), but it was immensely more "mindless" than EQ2 tradeskills. BTW, I don't know which is more the "timesink", hunting cats in Stonebrunt mountains and then rockhoppers in... umm.. I forget the name of that place.. for possible body drop hides (not a common drop and the ones needed for higher level tailoring were -very- uncommon drops) or going around a zone area harvesting nodes. From my memories of working on tailoring in EQ1, hunting for hides was definately much more time consuming and frustrating. In EQ1, there was -zero- chance to obtain your own raw materials for most crafts if you weren't also an adventurer of thus and so level and, preferably, able to solo the mobs that could drop thus and so component. The description of WoW's crafting resembled EQ1 crafting so much that I didn't want to try to get past the neon cartoons to give -it- a try. I left that primitive crafting system for good when I left EQ1. It's definitely -not- one of the things I am nostalgic for.

[p] I don't remember what it was, but they did change the EQ1 crafting so that you had recipe lists. I think the lists were based on what you discovered/skill level. So they did change that.[/p][p] I was thinking that maybe, and this is probably an idea that would need some refining is that you get your item, then after that you get the ability to modify that item (maybe you get 4 more tics to try and improve the item) with the extra ability you can modify the stats on the item, so maybe instead of it being all str you balance it between str and dex. Based on your "score" you get to modify the item X amount. Up to the point where you might even be able to sacrifice stats or armor for abilities. This could make it so that you make items that people want. Maybe you feel you don't need resists and want nothing but stats, or vice versa. You could really customize the item.[/p][p]Alternatively maybe you could have a situation where there's "tracks" that you can go down, and based on the track you choose affects whether the product is strength based or stamina based. Either way you get to customize your item based on skill and a little bit of luck. Ultimately no item that starts at the same point and has the same amount of time put into it should have a different outcome. That means if you go strength you get +6 str, if you go sta, you get +6 sta instead. This could be an alternative, or possibly a discovery item so that first you have to make the default item, then you can make custom items after the first combine. Either way the device has the same amount of worth, just different stats. (So the default would still have +6 to int because it was actually a robe, but that wizard really wanted to be strong or staminous.)[/p]

[p] And yet thousands enjoy it.. if you dont do it it has exactly zero impact on your experience, so honestly? clear off and talk about something you have an interest in, instead of being nothing but a trouble causer trying to drag this forum into fights when it isnt that sort of place. [/p][p]Your position is indefensible, your participation worthless.[/p]

Maybe he is not looking for a fight. He could be just someone who doesn't understand what RP stands for in RPG or is roleplaying a troublemaker. Maybe he just has trouble understanding that the game has two sides. Adventure and tradeskill. Then again, maybe he is just extremely immature and looking for a fight, lol. We can only judge by his words.

shaunfletcher wrote:

[p]/big hugs Shaunfletcher[/p][p]and =p to you Raveller. How would you know how many enjoy it? Do exit polls at the tradeskill instances?[/p][p]What does it matter to you? There is nothing in the game that says you need to do tradeskills to fully enjoy the game. There is nothing there detracting a thing from your obviously adventurer minded style of game play.[/p][p]You hate EQ2 tradeskill so much, just pretend we aren't here and we can go on doing our thing and you can do yours. Our paths would never have to even cross. [/p]

I like the Nest idea alot. As being an armorsmith ... crude shaped and regular has no purpose aside for being give away gear or back to the vendor for fuel costs.

I see a few posters going back and forth with disagreements and would like to remind everyone that while you are welcome to disagree with each other, please do so in a constructive and respectful manner. In some cases, you just need to get to the point where you agree to disagree and move on. There doesn't have to be a "winner" declared and there can be more than one "correct" answer -- that's what an opinion is after all! Let's not make this personal folks!

[p]You dont have to craft to get the items, you can buy them alongside non crafted items. you NEVER need mastercrafted items. Hell as an adventurer other peoples crafting gives you a market for rares that means you get free cash to buy legendary/fabled gear. The best gear anyway comes from other play methods than crafting. Basically you are making stuff up.[/p][p]My own time is divided perhaps 85% adventuring/exploring, 5% harvesting, the rest crafting. So much for your 'theory'.[/p][p] [/p]

[p]Yes, you can find mastercrafted gear on the broker at outrageously inflated prices. Supplies are extremely limited. And yes the best gear is Fabled and Legendary (I have never seen a Mythical item) and Fabled and Legendary is not player crafted. However, it takes time to obtain Fabled and Legendary and you will not be fully equiping your character through every level in Fabled and Legendary equipment purchased on the broker because you're not going to find a lot of Fabled and Legendary equipment on the broker and if you actually did play as an adventurer you would know that.[/p][p]Do you NEED Mastercrafted gear? Well, not if you're going to spend all of your game time in the crafting dungeon, which apparently is what you do. You also don't NEED Mastercrafted gear if you will be spending your game time killing snakes and rats. Nor do you NEED Mastercrafted gear if you will be advancing your adventuring character while always in a well balanced group of players who all know what they are doing and no one ever makes mistakes and the RNG is always on your side. People who actually play the adventuring game know that once you've leveled past the early 20s gear is king and Mastercrafted is the base acceptable quality. There will be selected Treasured items that will be more desirable for particular classes because of the specific stat buffs provided that Mastercrafted will not offer, but those are more exceptions than norms.[/p][p]Try taking on challenging, level appropriate content with that Handcrafted garbage. [/p]

Raveller wrote:

[p]A mix of legandary, fabled and TREASURED (which is, at the upper parts of each tier available cheaply with better stats than MC) gear is good enuogh for anything but PVP. Anyone saying otherwise must suck beyond recognition. And yes I have for instance a non crafting adventurer (did some crafting early on but not for 40 levels) who is almost level 60, and who is seriosuly geared up on bought and dropped gear. he also rarely groups except for the regular duo. Its easy enough to enjoy, but still challenging (generally questiing at yellow level with white when thats whats in the book and orange when we fancy a punt). Any better gear and it wouldnt really have any challenge at all.[/p][p]You DO NOT NEED mastercraft or fabled gear ever to experience the non PVP game to the full. To say you do means you are either a liar or an incompetent fool. You can play through to level 70 using mainly treasured with some HC gear, and the occasional piece of legendary (easy to get), but, and this is radical, you will need to learn to play your class properly, and will need to quest at mostly white or blue levels.[/p][p]Its got nothing to do with crafting, and while MC is expensive depending on server, its not THAT expensive, especially if you can be bothered to pick up shineys and a few harvests.[/p][p] [/p]

Raveller wrote:

[p]Prices for MC gear aren't really set by crafters, they're set mostly by non-crafting harvesters/adventurers who want to sell the rares they get to purchase their mounts, Master spells and Legendary+ gear with the proceeds. Funnily (or not so funnily) enough these same players are usually the ones who howl about a 5gp combine fee to craft an item with their 50gp+ rare when pristine is guaranteed (meaning that the crafter will buy another rare if for some reason a non-pristine occurs, lag, etc.). This is said based on my experiences on Lucan, mind you.[/p][p]Since the prices for raw rares are so inflated of course you won't find much MC gear up for sale, it's simply too much of a risk for most crafters to buy an ebon cluster for 1.5pp when the item probably won't sell with as little as a 20% markup (again, the ones selling the rares think 1.5pp for the rare is fine, but 1.75pp for a finished item made from it is 'robbery'). Accordingly, the players I know simply harvest and/or trade for the rares they need for the gear they want and then commission the work. [/p][p]Raveller wrote: [/p]

[p]So what is the point of that paragraph, beyond ranting and the snide implication that Shaun never leaves the crafting instance?[/p][p]Raveller wrote: [/p]

[p]I have and for certain it's tough. Accordingly, I work to make MC for myself with rares I harvest/trade for and I certainly don't want to spend all my income paying inflated prices for Treasured gear each tier.[/p][p]There are itemization issues between dropped and crafted gear, everyone knows this. Making crafting even more simplistic won't fix the issue and neither adventurers nor crafters would be better off if it were done. So, if you don't like crafting then simply ignore it and go on as you are, you'll stress yourself a lot less.[/p]

I really don't care if I was to lose the fuel on a less than pristine in the new system (and it seems like an unnecessary complication for you to have to dev) as long as I still made some xp at it. If removing the less than finished items (crude, etc) levels also meant that the combine timer was shortened some, that would be nice as well. Returning ingredients would be helpful (for less than finished) as it would mean my harvesting would be slightly lowered as well. Great idea, really. Fuel costs at low levels are negligible, and by high levels, you should have the system down pretty good. Losing the fuels would definitely keep people's attention a bit more on what they are doing as well. Also, I just recently leveled a Fae, and levels 1-9 are practically given to you, cost very little, and if you do the "quests" you don't even have to buy the books. I don't see where less than finished fails would really discourage anyone as I rarely made anything but pristine leveling that low. It's refreshing to see this kind of post from you though, Domino, as it reassures me you are thinking hard on ways to improve the experience for crafters using the system and resources that are available.

wow! no posts from DominoDev in 2 weeks... I'm hoping that's a good thing.

She's posted, just not on this thread. But she was gone for a week in there.

[p]So let me get this straight. The majority of uber crafters want to do away with xp for all but the pristine level. Sounds like a system to eliminate competition rather than one to encourage crafting.[/p][p]Crafting is probably this games biggest money sink. As a low level crafter, I had many a time when I couldn't afford to craft for weeks until I earned enough adventuring. Now you are talking about removing xp and fuel reimbursement (by way of vendoring the crafted items) for the lesser quality items.[/p][p]For this "system" to work, you will have to revamp the in-game training quests to actually teach the entire complexity of crafting to the newbies from the start instead of relying on out of game bulletin boards to provide that information.[/p][p] I know of several Guildies who have a tough time getting past shaped. I have suggested looking up the guides on websites but they have so little time to play that spending half that time looking up websites isn't in their best interest. They still want to craft. And you want to take that away from them.[/p][p]Yes DominoDev is only talking about T8 for now. But all things change. Given time the suggestion would be to make all of the tiers consistent.[/p][p]Saving database space is nice. Making the crafting game less buggy and more user-friendly is more important. So lets be sure and take all levels of crafting into account when proposing changes. Just as Adventurers aren't all raiders, crafters aren't all wealthy.[/p]

JebtheDruid wrote:

I don't know if they are used now, but it used to be that the bits were used for making arrow heads... Oops! No more arrow heads... hmmm

Syrie@Nektulos wrote:

That's one of the main reasons I'm a bigger fan of the resource returns. It's less work making all the changes to accommodate newer players and less mind wracking figuring out all the other nuances. I think resource returns are great for handcrafted type recipes and nest type for anything higher. At current, when you less than pristine a handcrafted recipe, you really don't lose anything except a bit of xp. With mastercrafted, you less than pristine it and you're out a good chuck of cash. In many ways, MC is already nest style in that if you less than pristine it, it's a major loss in both cash and resources so all this would change is making that far more apparent. Having resource returns on handcrafted eases harvesting concerns by letting crafter skill determine how much more time he spends out in the field or, how much more is going to be spent at the broker.

I'm still around! Just been reading quietly and pondering the different opinions on this thread, not to mention catching up from my week away. I hope to have a few more details to post about the direction of crafting quality levels mid-next-week-ish. Also, feel free to drop into the Allakhazam IRC chat on Tuesday with any specific questions you may have about crafting (or anything else). I'll be there!

Hmmm, I'm gonna mention this here, seems to fit in ... I would like to see something done about storage of base items for crafting. My char's bank slots are crammed full of bags of "stuff" that's needed to craft other items. Seems like there could be something done to alleviate this problem. I know that I've just frittered away items that I would now like to have, because I just didn't have the space to store them, not to mention that stuff I got rid of before I knew the value of it. I know, I know; there's gonna be all this fluff about buying bigger storage items but as a new player one doesn't have the $$ to go out and buy all those big bags, boxes and crates that older players can buy. I'm thinking about some sort of parallel storage so that regular storage doesn't have to be used for raw materials. Just thought I'd throw this in the mix. :twisted:

[hr] I think and if when changes might come that they need to be made for all tiers not just T8. I have to amit though that any version you consider will be a job to do to have to change but I strongly believe that it needs to start from beginning that way so as not make more confusing or less for some. Depending on what version you decide on if any it's needs to be where we get exp from any bar thou or it will slow a lot of us down and make some stop tradeskilling. So when you come up with a plan if any please consider them two things when doing so. I also want to add that thier is some trades that I am sure you are aware of that have no crude or shaped in them like the Provisoners, Alchemists, Woodworkers throwing weapons & totems and the Sages on the Adept III's so any methed similar would do and I don't mean giving us more crafted items : ) as some of these trades can do so that is where some for your examples you gave seem alright but I hoping that we still get exp from each bar? [p] I know this not the place for this but if possbile consider changing some of the adornments especially the resists ones for they are not used enough to keep them if you ask me and I may be wrong but I would consider changing them to be chest's adornments instead of rings,wrists, and neck for there is so many others for them slots being used instead of the resist ones but hardly any chest's one and also I think they need thier amount of resist up by a lot like 3x more then what they are now and even possibly adding 2 different resists to them instead of the one for I am sure it might help them being used more often and then so can having the option of being able to adorn more then just one...wishful thinking here but I posted it [/p][p] [/p][p] [size="small"]In response to "deKoven' about more storage [/size]I have made suggestion to this as well and some others too on different thread but I think best way to do this to give tradeskill tables a bank like vault that only holds nodes and accessable at all tables no matter where your at[/p]