Twisted Legacy's Raiding Proposal - Rotation

That sounds like a dead ENC not a train.

or one that has either gated or /quit...but yes, it is not really a train

Nobody cares about if TL or Apok or anyone else has done this or that. The fact of the matter is that rotations are going to be enforced, we need to find an agreement on what the terms of those rotations are going to be.

The term for what you're doing is typically called poop-socking. You have a raid force sitting and waiting for the raid mob to spawn.

There have been past servers and various rulesets that required you to respect this behavior. It ultimately always devolves into 24/7 poop-socking in order to "claim" a spawn. Those rules typically either became just silly, or didn't last long. Similar rules, including First-in-Force, also typically don't last long because it too ultimately becomes unworkable and too difficult to police.

There are only two workable responses to poop-socking and the result of taking it to it's inevitable conclusion. You either DPS race (which is what DBG went with), or (what P99 went with), you start creating all sorts of rules and mechanics to try to prevent this behavior. Based on P99, what those rules and such end up becoming, is all sorts of frapsing, petitioning, and in general, silliness of just waiting outside the next zone over doing the same thing instead of being on top of the mob spawn. Regardless of the merits vs. one or the other, what we have here is DPS racing.

That's the history of poop-socking, and why we have not recognized any claim of sitting on top of a raid spawn by us - or - by DBG. Sure, we could sit on a spawn 24/7 and claim it. That's pretty easy. When you initiate a poop-sock, we respond. If, for some reason, we don't show up in response, or it's an actual mobilization where a guild has clearly out-mobilized us, then we have let them engage first, without dps racing. There's some gray area in the mobilization behavior ie - If guilds arrive at the same time, it's alot less clear, but this is why RoI, Apok, and Rosen have all had runs at mobs with us waiting instead of dps racing.

I can see how you might consider it hypocritical since you probably think we're doing it just to be douches. We are consistent in our behavior, and my statements are specific in how we behave. There is no claiming of a raid mob before it spawns just because you're sitting in a zone and claim it. This leads to encouraging that behavior, leading to un-ending silliness. Your guild specifically engaged in poopsocks, per your own members, because you could not out-mobilize us. Other guilds can (Rosengard has beat us several times on this). Your counter was to sit there with a raid force. It was a smart move to try to counter one of your weaknesses. Per DBG's own rules, it does not entitle you to a spawn.

Believe it or not, TL likes poopsocks about as much as cancer. We have not initiated one unless someone else has. Even then we don't always show up in response. If your leadership wished (or perhaps wishes), we'd probably be open to working to end such behavior such that nobody has to sit in a zone for hours and hours.

TL : DR - Our behavior on raids has been consistent. You don't like someone responding to your poop-sock, I understand completely (I hate responding to one). Because we respond, and it ultimately leads to two guilds dps-racing/fighting over a mob, it does not mean that we're being hypocritical. If you had instead, not initiated a poopsock, and instead mobilized and engaged before us, well, we've not dps raced when this is clear. Your own experience on Vox/Inny/CT/Draco, Rosen's on Vox/Nag, and RoI's on Nag should be testament to this.

Toxic behavior, IMO, when it comes to raid mobs, is training (against DBG rules, you should have fraps out and petition such behavior!), harrassment (same - but please be sure your members didn't initiate it), memblurring (which we've never used on a raid mob - although DBG fixed this), homophobic/racial/ethnic slurs/insults/etc, and any form of hacking/warping/etc.

You wouldn't believe the amount of trains and toxic behavior we've had against us. Guilds and individuals who are upset that they didn't get a mob regularly train us. They follow our members around and train them. They harrass individuals, continually petition them, and trash talk all the time. We've had guilds bust out racial, homobphobic, and in general toxic insults in public chat,conversations/tells/etc while raiding. We've guilds dispell mobs we were engaged on, pull dispellers into the middle of our raid and FD, train raid mobs on us regularly, etc. We've had entire zones dumped on us over and over. We've had mobs peeled off our pulls, we've had mobs memblurred, we've had mobs charmed, and people love nothing more than to come complain here, often on troll accounts, and in public channels, and insult us, tell lies, and in general blame us for all their own woes. Undoubtedly not every member of our guilds behavior is something i'd condone, but this behavior towards us on raids, and our members, is common, frequent, and never-ending. Most of the time we don't even bother petitioning it - I have fraps and screenshots that have filled up a spare hard-drive of this crap. We feel the best response is to continue winning, and we in general, try to just ignore it. Nevertheless, our members are subjected to this, and they get upset like anyone else. Additionally, raiding in EQ has it's share of mistakes, opps, and in general, random things happen.

Just because a raid mob is dumped on you, it doesn't always mean the other guild did it, or that it wasn't an accident. Just because someones invis dropped on the way to Nag, doesn't mean it's a conspiracy to train. Reasonable individuals experienced in raiding realize this, and merely move to compensate. The rest come to these forums apparently.

Anyways, long response. It's probably moot at this point, but if you're in Apok, and you're complaining about this....why has your own guild engaged in alot of this such behavior itself? RoI started to, but largely ended up being professional on raids where we ran into each other. I'm not aware of issues with other guilds at raid spawns - Rosen has been nothing but a class act. Frankly, our members often root for Rosen on mobs - that's how cool those guys are. They don't complain, they show up, they improve (seriously, their daytime mobilization beats ours more than half the time), and their leadership has reached out to us over and over. We're really the typical uber guild. Anyone with experience in EQ knows exactly what I mean. We're not exactly bending over backwards for anyone else, but typically our behavior can be predicted, it's not personal - it's just raiding, and if you don't expect the moon, we're open to discussions. If your guild starts something, we generally respond in kind, and you shouldn't expect us to be overly magnanimous.

Sorry, long response, I tend to get wordy, but you seem genuinely sincere, and I wanted to give you a full response out of respect. In an ideal world, yes, you being there first might matter. I have the benefit of many, many years of EQ - from tiny friend guilds, to large family guilds, to super competitive raiding guilds (moreso than TL!!). Open world raiding, 16 years after classic, is what it is. It's a beast, that ultimately shuts people out who want to experience content. That's also classic in a sense. Doesn't mean it's necessarily fair, doesn't necessarily mean it's right. Within that world, and within our behaviors, the more professional guilds have certain unspoken rules and behaviors. We generally abide by them, and the other guilds who are familiar with this, generally understand that (and vise versa). If you're new to competitive raiding in open world content, or at least new to this level of competition, frankly, it sucks. The funny thing is, all of us in TL, and every other guild on other serveris, past, present, and future who raid in an open world setting, have been in your shoes. We've learned, adapted, and in general figured out how to be successful. Despite common perception, we're not all basement dwellers with no life, and the vast majority of our guild (our attendance is public) may not even put more time in the game than your guildmates may.

May I suggest the Dracolich in fear as a gatekeeper mob? No one is going to be upset about losing a draco kill, since he doesn't drop anything (for now) killing him is just doing the zone a favor. He is hard enough to require co-ordination and be a general test of a guild skill.

After reading this whole thread, I think the best solution is to stick TL on their own server, with no other players at all. Everyone else seems to be capable of playing together in a civilized way.

No guild deserves to be 1:1 on boss kills with TL. TL gets 99% of boss kills currently because the other guilds just can't hack it with the buffed bosses. You should be happy that you get free attempts on the bosses now and not try to overplay your hand to make everybody on the same level, just deal with the sad fact that you aren't and never will be, no matter how many free bosses you get to attempt now.

Those asking for no FFA kills can just leave, this is not the server for you until about 3 years from now. There is a reason PoP and earlier is considered the golden age of EQ. Competing vs guilds for mobs is what made this MMO raiding scene unique and popular.

The fact that Apok turned down such a mutually beneficial agreement is laughable and just shows how delusional they are.

I'd hope that the only thing Skyp would budge on is time to engage. 2 hours would be acceptable, but it should remain A > FFA > B > FFA > C > FFA > rinse, repeat. No it isn't 1:1 fair on paper, but it shouldn't be and every single person on this server knows it. That's what EQ is and always has been. This isn't dev-mandated equal loot. It's us allowing people free shots at content and you turned it down.

There was an RoI officer, that after that raid, posted that it was 15 LDC's (there aren't even 15 in the zone in case anyone is curious). So my comment was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek reference to that. As I said, I have fraps of the LDCs arriving - they attack random people in both guilds before ultimately settling on our bards (bard song = generating most agro). I believe they ultimately get charmed by some of our people in order to attack the dragon - they may have even gotten buffed (I died partway through). If for some reason, we trained them, and had buffed them, then wow are we ever incompetent because it hit us and killed our members. I'm not aware of another situation where we were in Solb, with Nag, with RoI, and LDC's showed up. There have been no other posts on these forums or discussion in game about other LDC incidents other than the raid on 6-30. Well, except when trained by RoI monks that were fuming. The more likely reason for you not getting the kill wasn't the LDC's, heck, I think you had groups who were afk and not engaged while we were dps racing.

Oh hey, here is the video -
Note, at the very end, like a group of RoI sitting on the bridge not even engaged with their guild. The LDC's probably were brought by someone running to join the raid, from either guild, and not trained maliciously. If you wanted to train maliciously, you'd bring alot more than 2 LDCs. They're clearly attacking and killing our members here. Nevertheless, we don't run to the forums and complain about the toxic raid scene and how RoI trained us to try to steal a Nag.

TL has several trolls in these threads (or trolls masquerading as TL members anyways), but joke suggestions like these help just the same as the trolls, that is to say its not helpful at all.

I take it back, it is 1:1 fair on paper because technically anybody can win a FFA kill, even with the twist to this one where one guild can't take part in it.

TL is greedy. They want to monopolize the best content and steal any people from any guild that wants to compete. If stealing members doesn't work, they talk down about the guild and rant/flame the leadership for existing.

This original post is such a spit in the face to the whole community it astounds me that their whole guild is even allowed to exist (the devs should disband the whole thing and close their accounts for good)

Rotation means to legit rotate the events including efreet... (claiming sky is too complex is just a cop-out tactic) You know efreet yields the best items in the game and you would never want anyone else to have any of it.

By the way Skyp why do you stand at the entrance of permafrost... Are you tracking Vox with a hack... I mean at least bring a tracking class as to not be so obvious. A warrior can't track ... but you can through obvious map hacks.. yes I am calling your out

Those that want the rotation (non-TL-griefing-idiots) be aware that they are going to crash the zones on you when it is your turn, they are going to disrupt you in anyway they possibly can including spamming you in tells to distract you & training and still kill-stealing the bosses (while claiming your 1 hour timer was up) and moving the bosses away from their spawn points to screw you.

BE ADVISED

The guides are likely not prepared for any of this behavior and probably will not enforce account suspensions or bans.

TAKE SCREENSHOTS.
RECORD
LIVE STREAM
all of your attempts so you can show verifiable proof that you are being derailed in your attempts.. TL will never give you anything, as they have a vested interest in stopping you (vested interest as in Real Money)

I was being serious.

Hi random anon dude. Go into Vox's spawn area if you want to see our tracker.

Hint: It's usually a necro sitting in the tunnel that leads down to the patriarch area.

Oddly enough, there is usually a similar person posted up in Naggy's Lair, Innoruuk's room, and in Fear. Strange how that works.

From all known data points Everquest peaked at ~500k subs in 2004 during OoW. After several expnaions of instancing. And another MMORGP hit over 11 million subs with instancing.

GVGPVP may make them unique, it does not make them popular in the MMORPG market.

Yep, silly people love to point out the GoD slip in population that wasn't really that sharp (and picked up a little, last reports as you quoted were during OoW and still raising at the time) when EQ literally had a $200-600 pricetag to many people because of forced upgrades. (Amongst MANY other issues)

In this video when Ducreux says "ask Szeria for c, it might be an auto macro" - what does that mean?

Lucky for everyone else, it doesn't matter too much how much Skyp would budge...because if a majority of the server wants better terms, it would seem that DB would start enforcing it that way.

Because logic would dictate that even if there were 10 guilds on the rotation....TL would be getting more than their fair share...sure, it'd be less than it is now....but after all, it's because of things they and Apok have done, visibly, provably, which had to have caused DB to backtrack.

And those TL people complaining about how DB is changing the rules....well, we didn't see any of you guys when they changed the rules on the 6 months before the vote for Kunark.

So, stop complaining about it, work with the other guilds (yes, including RoE, Remnants of Prexus, etc), and let's get something in place that has a semblance of fairness (of which, so far, MaestroMs edits to your initial proposal, most, other than TL, will think is more than fair). Toss in my suggestion that those who aren't up on the rotation for that mob not be anywhere near the guild that is (after all, DB wants things to be fair....and we all know no one wants accidents...), and let's see how things go.

If it needs tweaking after the fact, the guilds involved can work that out with DBs help if need be.

Just face it - you don't have a choice but to work with us on it - DB has stated as such. And again, you have no one but yourselves to blame for it.

We look forward to working with everyone.

Marth

p.s. Babyruthie - "It's us allowing people free shots at content and you turned it down." - consider that a lot more guilds would have had shots at CT, Inny, Naggy, Vox, etc, had TL/Apok not socked early on, or ran people over to do the DPS race (though technically, DB is to blame for the "dps race everything" aspect - so now they get to be in the middle of things as punishment). So, no, your "A > FFA > B > FFA > C > FFA > rinse, repeat." isn't good enough...because it would just translate into TL > FFA (TL) > Apok (~TL) > FFA (TL) > Rosen (TL) > FFA (TL).

@Necro1 - You are so far off I can't even take you seriously.

You are entitled to your opinion and I personally will respect that, but you cannot portray your opinion as fact.

If you are tracking spawns, you can make a best guess as to what mob may be popping next, and if you care about mobilizing quickly, you may want to have your character in that zone, regardless if it's at the entrance, swimming the water or on the highest ledge you can find. One player having his character prepared in a zone for the next possible spawn does not prevent another player, or many from being there also. This is a toxic blind swing accusation.

May I direct you to the original post in this thread? I don't understand where you get this "Real Money" idea from, there are so many players on the server in every guild that is capable that wants the loot to use, it's just not even reasonable to assume anyone is selling raid loot. Another toxic blind swing accusation.

Again, may I direct you to the original post in this thread? It does not benefit TL to give up spawns, or be a part of a rotation system. Yet TL has posted a reasonable and fair way to continue the competition but give other guilds free swings at mobs. I have seen nothing but respect from TL, even while people just like yourself are blindly swinging at air hoping to hit something that's not there.

So, i'll chalk this one up to you being uneducated with how Plane of Sky works. Sky is a quick respawn, and Efreeti is a long respawn. The Efreeti event starts at the beginning, and ends on the final island. Therefor, you have to clear Plane of Sky to complete the Efreeti event. Now imagine a guild can't kill the Queen Bee, do you expect the other guilds to stand idle and watch as Hand of Veeshan does not get killed in time? It adds extra complications to an already complicated system that nobody really wants to police.

half of the necro on the server would shank someone for bcg.