These are my parses taken the day of the new changes. This is all group geared focus, and fast killing groups. With the exception of the burn test I ran on a few test dummies. I pulled the average out of the burn test. The group DPS is all fast killing and 6 hours worth of parse data. I averaged 40-60k dps, it shows 38k here for a 6 hour parse, that doesn't mean I did 38k dps per mob, that is taking into account 3-4 anniversary missions I did + pulling times and everything else, the average of all that was a very respectable 38k dps. My group DPS from yesterday. Combined: A pirate crew member in 22883s, 1744135k @76220sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 882671k@38573sdps (38922dps in 22678s) [50.6%] My burn DPS from yesterday, this was self buffed only. This isn't horrible DPS for a group geared shaman. If you can't do this send me a message in game I'll help, but looking at every other class's DPS, this about where we need to be. Test One Hundred Three in 80s, 15447k @193089sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 15447k@193089sdps (193089dps in 80s) [100%] Shaman are not hurting for dps right now even with the new changes, we can still heal great as well. Agro is MUCH easier to throttle, throttle meaning I can get to 80% agro and sit there comfortably and still dps, not be sitting at 40% and going oh no is the next tic gonna put me at 100. I hope they stick with these new changes because they seem to put shaman exactly where they need to be, and they've done so smartly, the dmg of the swift dots vs normal dots makes good sense now. They're basically shorter cheaper more efficient versions of normal dots. We don't get the wasted 30 seconds of DoT at the end of a mob death anymore. That's smart, it makes good sense and its how they should have done it all along, it turns the DoTs into the equivalent of a 2 tic nuke now, with time to cast other things like heals / buffs in between, but not done so with exaggerated damage. Its almost like they finally balanced it, give that guy a raise!
Ive played shaman since 2001. For once it was kinda fun to make some sort of dps. I think it was well balance with huge mana cost and high aggro. The new dots on test server is just horrible. Just keep the dots as they are on live server. Now we at least have a ability to burst some dmg.
if they want to nerf ,,,fine I guess, but why a double nerf , ( last time I checked , some dot's were even more mana to cast ). why increasing mana ( sraskus / nectar of woe livios affliction / ) while lowering the dps a lot ? and 66 % nerf is huge .. group game don't need to be nerfed that much, just mitigate dot's in raid environment ... would like to have the reefmaw bite dd ( 12690 damage ) to have a regular recast time for the group game , anyway the damage from it is lower than some dot / tic
Vind, 38.5k sustain-dps from a lvl 105 character is terrible. It's terrible for a lvl 100 character. It is not appropriate or acceptable.
It is over a session, I believe. Session dps appears to me to come out lower (and truer) than the pr combat dps because of bias tend to explain the lower data points.
For a DPS class 38.5k dps on a single biased fight would be considered a pretty lazy player, so very true! I linked 22,883 seconds of parse data, divide by 60 = 381 minutes divide by 60 = 6.35 hours, of a healer class DPSing. Take out the pulling times, CC times, healing times, I'm probably doing closer to 45-50k on a healer class. That is very decent DPS for level 105 whether you feel it is acceptable or not is really no concern of mine. As far as game balance goes it really puts shaman exactly where they need to be, which is able to make a very balanced contribution in a group. As for as the agro and mana management goes it all felt really balanced and easy to throttle, unlike the broken DoTs we had before, in many instances I can actually do more damage now with less fear of pulling agro. Because we are using DoTs I was also able to heal plenty during that 6.35 hours as well. My particular style of gameplay is DoTs, Nukes, Buffs, Debuffs, and Melee 100% of the time and group heal as often as possible and try to do it all with 0% downtime. I felt like during that 6 hours I was very easily able to do it all. My conclusion being it felt pretty awesome to play my shaman again. They're pretty well rounded out with these new changes. RoFL @ not appropriate or acceptable, though, I got a good laugh out of that.
Noooooo leave it alone! That is an awesome spell and its working great as is. If you change the recast time you have to change the damage too, because you are changing the DPS it is capable of. Its a super fast casting DD. Lets say one dot tic does 15,000 damage, and this nuke does 12690, it takes that dot tic 6 seconds to get around to doing that 15,000 damage, it takes that nuke about 0.5s(I forget the cast time) + global cooldown to do its damage. So about 1.5 seconds to do 12,690 damage vs 6 seconds to do 15,000. Its a good nuke, you just gotta know when to put it in your rotations. Now that being said, the slow casting cold and poison DDs are absolutely worthless in a fast paced group environment. On a raid though! If I had 0 healing to do I would stack all 7 of my long dots and while they're ticking away I'd cycle that swift nuke with one of the slower casting ones until I had to refresh DoTs again. With the current changes of course.
I agree with telechir, even 40-50k dps is what you could have gotten before the dot changes in a normal group. I don't understand the need to reduce dps while increasing mana cost. Our dots are by far the least efficient and canni doesn't make up for that.
There however a problem when shamans burns 600k++ thereby going directly into top 3 dps, shamans are a priest, and they by defination should not be a dps class.
I can't say I could be on board with putting shaman ahead of what an average DPS class can do as far as DPS goes, if we're both wearing the same gear. Shaman is one of the three priest classes. If it is doing more DPS than a DPS class, it is broken or that DPS class is broken. I already proved to myself that casting non stop for 6 hours was easily manageable both through agro and mana usage with these new changes. And in comparison to every equally geared DPS class out there I was doing respectable damage that did not surpass what they where able to do and I was able to maintain my group utility while doing it. That's about as balanced as you can get! Anything at all that pushes me past the amount of DPS they can do, with all things being equal I would say is completely out of balance. To be absolutely blunt, with the dot changes before I was able to do from 90-120k dps on my shaman in a group, it wasn't very manageable I would usually be tanking shortly into it, I would also have an unmanageable mana loss that required me to slow down greatly every few mobs and be literally useless. It was very broken, I should NEVER be compared to another broken DPS class for DPS on my shaman. That is just asking for another round of nerfs and they would be well deserved. I'm going to agree with you here because I feel I'm being overly negative! You are 110% correct, canni does not make up for it. Smart casting, knowing your means of DPS and using them wisely, knowing your means of mana returns and using them wisely, knowing when to cast an extra DoT or Nuke and when to hold back, all of these things more than make up for it. I know, I just did it on a very badly geared shaman. I was able to stay near full mana every round up until a name would pop and then I'd burn it up like there was no tomorrow on both DPS and Heals, cuz while those new tank mercs are neato they still need lovin. We aren't hurting for mana, I just managed it We aren't hurting for agro, I just managed it We aren't hurting for DPS, I just managed it We aren't losing utility, I still have it We aren't hurting for heals, I was able to do it And most importantly I am no longer ahead of the DPS a real DPS class is capable of, utilizing the same gear. This is balance, this is what it means, this is what it feels like, this is what everyone should have, Nerf Zerkers. For all the whiners out there who are complaining they can no longer sit back cast 2 dots and pretend they did something to show up on a parse, suck it up, or get replaced by someone who isn't lazy.
Smart guy! The problem with this entire string of arguments over shaman DoT dps, is, You've got one side that loved to just sit back and click 2 DoTs and call it DPS, even though they where completely and utterly not taking advantage of the real DPS they where capable of and just being comfortable and lazy in casting 2 spells and calling it good - VS - not lazy people that actually know what they're doing, and where able to utilize the previous changes to put out a completely overpowered and insane amount of DPS for even a real DPS class to do. It was very broken, and I really hope the lazy people don't come out ahead on this one. Don't break my shaman again! Nerf Zerkers.
@ vindicate, I get that you like where shaman are on test, that's great I'm glad you do. but your making a couple of assumptions that are in my opinion very much subject to debate first, about the the shaman that click 2 dots and call it dps, those shaman aren't hitting 600k on the raid parse, and hitting high numbers like that is what the problem is so, lets not confuse the issue. those two dots even with my melee, epic, nukes, fleeting, spire, bard support and everything else never put me anywhere near dps class dps the only way to hit that dps is load 7 dots and do everything else right ON A RAID MOB group dps is nowhere near that mark. period. so lets not confuse shaman raid dps with shaman group dps. the second assumption you make that I find debatable is that 40k dps for a 105 acceptable I am withholding judgement until I have a chance to play live what your playing on test to see where we stand after the changed changes change
Pretty well aware that someone casting 2 dots isn't doing 600k dps, thanks I'm also well aware what group dps is, I've posted it, and I've posted my thoughts on it, thanks again! I'm well aware that 40k dps is a bit on the low side for a group geared dps class, got it! Shaman definitely don't fall into that category. If you could also do me a favor and link the post where I said 40k dps is acceptable for a 105 I'd appreciate it I seem to have forgotten where I wrote that. And, when you go and find what I really wrote, make sure you post it in context, thank you so much.
Not wanting to pile on here - but if you were 50% of the group dps at 38.5k that sounds more like a molo. (I believe the parser ignores time your group is not fighting unless the fight is started but mob is then crowd controlled, that time is in sdps but would make your parse kind of worthless for our comparison if that were the case). If any tank was that low on their dps there wouldn't be a multi page thread here on the boards about it. You may enjoy not having to worry about agro, I have enjoyed trying to find the balance, but then I usually have a real tank in group and can push them to do more agro than we can get out of a tank merc, and the real tank still beats me on the grouping parse on live as it is now.
I have waited patiently for the upgrade to Shaman. It's so tedious having all those dots at your disposal and still not even touching the mob in a group environment when mobs die so quick. On a raid? No chance. Shaman dots not worth the debuff spot it claims from another class. Finally it came, and now I have a few great weeks when I can contribute! But of course, I now "contribute" far too much - and I can see that I needed reeling in a bit, so I did expect a reduction. But as usual, instead of reducing the figures by some proportion - say 25%, maybe keeping the same mana cost, all panic ensues and we are completely over-nerfed to WORSE than the long awaited improvements (and yes, I know the calculations "aren't quite that simple" - but they could be). Please do not let these changes get to live. You are supposed to be enhancing the class with these DoT revamps, not making it worse.
Some perspective, using the changes now on Test. Let's look at old DoT damage for the primary Shaman DoT lines: Garugaru 3465 Nectar 3437 Srakus 3499 Reef crawler 2675 Breath of hem 1688 Spirespines 2346 --------------------- Total: 17,110 And now the new ones on Test: garugaru: 17141 Necatar of woe: 12648 Srakus' curse 15237 Reef crawler blood 10901 Breath of hemocoraxius 10099 Spirespines pandemic 6824 Total: 72850 So all of your old DoTs' damage combined is less than just the damage of the new GaruGaru alone. To put this another way, the base damage of your primary DoTs is almost as much base damage per tick as the three primary Wizard nukes combined. "But the efficiency!" you say, because in this example you are reading my post while I'm writing it. Indeed, lets look at mana cost of all the old DoTs combined: Old: garugaru 1875 Nectar 1958 Srakus 2300 Reef crawler 2175 breath of hem 1612 spirespines 1762 -------------------- Total: 11682 Compare this to the cost of just GaruGaru: 11594 So not only is one single "new" DoT more damage per tick than all of your old DoT's combined, it's less mana, too. Let's also not forget that even if you tried to stack every DoT in every line listed above, which would take about a year, you'd still be doing less damage per tick than the DoTs listed above that require only 4 gems to cast. There's also next to 0 ramp up time. You can go from 0 DoTs on target to fully dotted in mere seconds. Looks pretty good to me
Ya that's one way to look at it and it doesn't seem all that bad. But my point is take garugaru, for example, the damage was increased roughly 5x but the mana was increased 6x. So from your view of it I get the power of 5 spells for the cost of casting 6. I don't get it. The mana cost should be the same as the damage increase.
By all means pile on, the more merrier. This is also not just 1 group, I don't sit in one spot for 6 hours I'd go crazy. It was over the course of one day, the day after the patch took place. And, since I'm sick and tired of trying to explain to a bunch of people that have no clue what it actually means when I link a parse of 38k over 6 hours, I'll go ahead and give some much shorter examples of what a shaman with these new dot changes is capable of, thank you for pushing me there! I strive to be better and you are my motivation. Loading Please Wait... Its taking a few minutes to load a week of parsing. Please be patient! Ok a few parses inc some combined some not. Just an example of what I was capable of over the last week with the new changes, and if possible a brief description of the circumstances involved. Its all from memory so bear with me! Speaking of bears, I killed 51 bears to get a wurmy for my baby sk. Combined: A frontier bear in 2532s, 276940k @109376sdps --- Catisha + pets 276940k@109376sdps (109376dps in 2532s) [100%] This was mostly root rotting. Some time at goblins outside of Droga in FM, give or take. Combined: A Drogan reveler in 8954s, 888978k @99283sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 405389k@45275sdps (45330dps in 8943s) [45.6%] Mostly me 2 boxing but I had people coming and going the whole time. Due to having to heal and be the only CC there, my best burn wasn't so hot Bi`faak the Shadowwalker in 159s, 20157k @126776sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 13923k@87564sdps (160031dps in 87s) [69.07%] A session in Chardok, also people coming and going, and the mobs have a lot more health than goblins do so they tend to stay alive long enough to get decent dps on them. Mostly me and some guildies here. Combined: A Di`Zok watchman in 6821s, 723433k @106060sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 436104k@63935sdps (63954dps in 6819s) [60.28%] I was able to burn a lot better, still have to debuff and heal! Kennel Master Al`ele in 67s, 29570k @441336sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 14198k@211911sdps (229000dps in 62s) [48.02%] Grand Herbalist Mak`ha in 77s, 30587k @397235sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 12422k@161321sdps (188208dps in 66s) [40.61%] Fractured Shard in 101s, 29511k @292190sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 18727k@185421sdps (185421dps in 101s) [63.46%] This mob got me an upgrade to my lvl 82 belt from Grounds, yay! A short session in Droga, just me and SK box. Combined: A expert goblin sentry in 3338s, 212937k @63696sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 160100k@47891sdps (48266dps in 3317s) [75.19%] a quick 30-40 mobs just long enough to find out my baby SK cant tank the namer I wanted, yet. The name I wanted! Master Kizzixik in 7s, 131k @8193sdps --- #5 Catisha 0k@0sdps (0dps in 0s) [0%] rofl. Not really sure how I ended up as number 5 on the parse, there was only 4 of us, and 1 was a healer merc! Upgraded a hammer for my shaman in Gates of Kor Sha Spiritmaster Tala`Tak in 75s, 29761k @396817sdps --- #2 Catisha 7820k@104264sdps (181856dps in 43s) [26.28%] The rest of the mobs while I was there, long camp! Combined: A sarnak sage in 9899s, 981061k @99107sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 411827k@41603sdps (41658dps in 9886s) [41.98%] Killed a giant on the way to Chardok Cathal Paclock in 166s, 54006k @325335sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 27331k@164642sdps (185922dps in 147s) [50.61%] Some burns in Chardok, having to heal heavily on these. Watch Captain Hir`roul in 134s, 33599k @250741sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 18121k@135232sdps (151009dps in 120s) [53.93%] Watch Captain Hir`roul in 102s, 33165k @325148sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 15622k@153157sdps (185976dps in 84s) [47.1%] Rofl at this 9 minute fight that I basically had to spam heal the entire time, cuz mercs where 0 mana when I accidentally found this guy, apparently they where out of mana for a while! Woopsy! Still managed 57k dps over 9 minutes while being the main healer. The Bridge Keeper in 547s, 83048k @151825sdps --- #2 Catisha 29943k@54740sdps (57034dps in 525s) [36.05%] Bla bla bla shaman are nerfed, bla bla shaman are inefficient bla bla my shaman broken bla bla bla my dots broken bla bla bla BLAAAAAAAAA!!!! Whatever. I'm OP leave me be! And the rest of the mobs while we where there Combined: A reanimated dragoon in 5559s, 599716k @107882sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 265235k@47713sdps (47807dps in 5548s) [44.22%] This is literally the worst geared shaman that has ever stepped foot into EoK, and I don't mean worst raid geared, this shaman was getting upgrades to its Grounds gear from HoT expansion and beyond. If you're trying to tell me that as a shaman you can't play because of any DoT changes you're full of it! If I could do it on this shaman how the heck could you not on yours. These changes are nice, they are definitely upgrades, they improve the DPS we where capable of, they're balanced compared to other equally geared DPS classes, which we don't fall into, and they by far are easily manageable both agro and mana wise. I would consider a shaman broken if it was NOT in this place, until they make changes to everyone else. Nerf Zerkers
