it was nice to be a shaman again for a little while, the reduction appears ridiculous. I looked at the reductions in the link at the top of the page and if memory serves me and it may not, it almost looks like were going back to even worse than what we had before the upgrade. /spits.... too disgusted for words.
This is why they actually need to "test" things on the test server, instead of automatically pushing them live as fast as possible and hoping for the best. Most people realize that the current shaman DOTS in game are way over the top as far as DPS goes, and you only have to look at how they currently obliterate every DPS class except zerkers on live (with appropriate ADPS of course). When the original shaman DOT changes were on test, it would have taken the devs a whole 30 mins to gauge the DPS of the revamped dots with appropriate ADPS, and then tuned down accordingly. Instead, they pushed some ridiculous changes to live and now basically have to revert that change, pissing a lot of people off in the process, and rightfully so.
Daybreak should just hire Beimeith to do their spell damage calculations for them, IMO. Bet he could tell them exactly what the base damage should be of any given spell, to meet whatever parameters they want, within just a few minutes per spell. And be much more accurate than anyone else there 'guessing' at what spell damage and mana costs should be, to achieve their desired results... IE - With a perfect setup and perfect aDPS, we want a shaman to be able to achieve 300k sustained dps for up to 4 minutes, but to have exhausted all mana in a raid environment to do so, to include 'gifts' of mana likely possible given during a typical raid event. In a solo/molo/weak group setup, with each mob surviving approximately 40s each, to be able to sustain 100k dps indefinitely.... or some such similar parameters. I'd bet Beimeith could come up with exactly the numbers they needed, to achieve the results. If only the individual actually deciding these figures knew EQ math as well as Beimeith did, we wouldn't continue to have these types of fiascos.
Events are complicated. There is no easy calculation. If you consider a class ONLY on their dps, then yes. easy. Zerkers die lots but also do crazy dps. Make them live more, and then their dps is offset with survivability. Monks may as well be tanks with how they live and can FD at will. Their dps is weaker. (but needs a boost... I feel for you monks) Events also make range vs melee matter. There is really no easy math formula to fix things (EQ devs would have figured one out by now to get close otherwise)
This. Assuming that they can log the same at the server as at the client, they could have a big data approach to the problem, and calculate actual dps for each combat for each toon, worldwide, and then push out adjustments very frequently, say once a week (with proper communication), and tune classes to where they want them to be. In theory, I think it might be a capability stretch for a game dev company. Beimeth could do a similar thing: if he adds an option to GamParse to submit combat results to a cloud server, the server could aggregate results, and people could voluntarily help tuning the game. Unfortunately it would be possible to cheat, to submit results that was tamperee with, and maybe so in a volume that could skew results. Countermeasures would require further effort, but could involve Magelo lookups, blacklisting, automatic reputation based weighting, etc. A fun project to run, but harder to fund...
I am shocked SHOCKED A thread spontaneously saying positive things about Beimeith? I'm gonna go outside and look for pieces of falling sky.
the real problem here is that shaman shouldn't be putting out 500k-700k dps in raid settings we all KNOW that group shaman will never see anywhere near those numbers in group settings it is just impossible for that to happen. so evaluate what allows a shaman to get those numbers in raids, 1. mob hitpoints 2. raid gear 3. raid adps support 4. the fact the the guild doing the raid can field enough shaman in their primary roles to throw one two into a dps role where all they do is dps. 5. that shaman loads up all 7 dot lines and does pretty much nothing but place and renew those dots and whatever else they can do with nukes and whatever in between. this scenario in the group game just cannot happen. in the group game we have to heal, buff and debuff and most times by the time that happens the mob is over 50 percent dead already. the fix for this is already in place on our swift dots (swift dots do less damage on raid targets) so keep shaman dots the way they are on live, and make ALL shaman dots do less on raid targets. if the changes proposed at the beginning of this thread go live we are back to waving a limp spaghetti noodle at the mobs and hope they die laughing at us. and it just disgusts me to no end to think we will be back to sitting a mount healing and hoping everyone else in the group can kill the mob for us. or putting totem on speed dial in a solo/molo scenario because we no longer have the tools to kill anything. I am of the opinion that the bump in dps we got was a good one, and in line with where we should be in a group setting primarily because of all of our other duties in the group. it allowed us to contribute some meaningful dps numbers in a group setting I don't think i ever broke 150k, that's after the boost. I don't think that that is outta line. and that's on a named not a trash mob. when i first saw this thread and someone posted that they were cutting dots some by 50 percent i thought that meant 50 percent of the increase that we got, that does not appear to be the case, I'm going from memory here so if I'm wrong correct me. our base for the poison swift used to be around 17k ish per tick for 2 ticks? it got bumped to around 23k ish per tick for 2 ticks and according to the link at the top of the thread it now getting cut too 10k ish for 2 ticks did i really see that right? wtf!!!!!????? So determine what the real problem is, evaluate the best means to fix the problem with out completely gutting the shaman class and destroying our ability to do anything but heal.
I'm not a numbers guy, and the calculations are definitely complicated, absolutely (for someone like me-I'm betting a real numbers person, however, it wouldn't really be all that complicated). However, to determine max DPS possible for a particular spell isn't THAT hard, and absolutely should be a requirement for whoever is the developer/team that is deciding what the base numbers should be for a spell. In less than an hour of testing on a dummy with new spells, a guild shaman was parsing over 250k with self buffs only. His second raid night, he hit 528k over 232s in less than optimal conditions. If the individual responsible for determining base spell damage can't simulate at least close calculations of what is possible, then I'd think they need to learn how, before adjusting anything else. Were the new damage numbers and mana costs calculated at all? Or are they just more spitball figures thrown in there? If for example, they determine that a shaman should be able to hit 180-200k DPS in 250s with optimal conditions during a raid, and sustain 130k DPS in a group setting of mobs that live an average of 45s each... can that be done with the changed values? It's my guess that whoever is determining these numbers is going about it wrong, and not backwards calculating them. Take what the desired outcome is, and backwards calculate to achieve that goal.
Basically the first change to shaman dots were simply too wild. When a shaman could get to 500k -700k then something is totally wrong. A shaman should likely be in range of 150-200k top. Some shamans have had dots crit over for 550k, thats around 100k dps for 1 alone, and it was not even the fast ones. Then imagine when necro gets their change, how much should they get, if increase is same in number of times. Beastlords had around 7 times increase in dam / mana costs. And I think shaman same, but shamans has a lot more aa that increases dots compared to necro, so shamans should probably have had a 3/3 increase. And same with necro. If necro had got same increase number, how much would they have been able to ? 2-3 mil dots ?
shruggz is correct in that shaman in group content need to be able to contribute to DPS without breaking the raid environment. This seems fairly simple to do by tweaking the swift DoTs. I'm guessing you could keep their base numbers what they are on live, decreasing, if necessary (probably), the % they do versus raid targets.
But guys, didn't you know the they have new tools now to test such things. These new tools are extremely accurate too! /holds back laughter. They probably got their numbers from a spreadsheet as usual, because that is very accurate view of what things are really like right! It took me all of 10 seconds to see that the new numbers that were pushed to live were WAY over the top. You don't have to be a math wiz to know that tripling a DoTs base damage was going to be way to much. Again, showing just how insanely out of touch they are with the game.
Not saying the changes to the changes are right but shaman never should have seen anything remotely that powerful considering the dot tools they have. Passively they are just like necros only crit less often but the base of their dots being that high negated that entirely. Burn wise they have most burn tools just to a much lessor degree outside of twincast which is actually better for shaman. Plus the best mana regen in the game.
I'm actually liking where shaman dots are right now, like this very second, on Test. I know the hyped damage was way overpowered, it just was, I could burn down EoK mobs in about 15 seconds with dots, I'd pull a whole camp and stack 3 dots on everything and root rot them all dead without having to refresh, yea that's a little bit OP for current end group game. I'm only wearing group gear focus as well. The raid geared people are obliterating my DPS and I was OP! That being said that was on Test, and I'm not sure that particular set went live. We just received the current set that you have linked up there at the top. In the group game, my agro is way more manageable, I do about 40-60k dps on average, every single fight, in a group. This is about the same DPS that other group geared people are getting in EoK. If you're getting more, great! You're doing good, awesome job! But on average 40-60k isn't going to make you a DPS class at the moment in EQ. On test dummies with just a few cursory burns I parse about 180-200k dps in my group gear, I am a shaman! not a zerker anymore. This is about where I need to be, unless of course they're intending to increase the DPS of everyone else, then I'll be behind again My group DPS from yesterday. Combined: A pirate crew member in 22883s, 1744135k @76220sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 882671k@38573sdps (38922dps in 22678s) [50.6%] My burn DPS from yesterday, this was self buffed only. This isn't horrible DPS for a group geared shaman. If you can't do this send me a message in game I'll help, but looking at every other class's DPS, this about where we need to be. Test One Hundred Three in 80s, 15447k @193089sdps --- #1 Catisha + pets 15447k@193089sdps (193089dps in 80s) [100%] This is perfectly acceptable, If I was doing more DPS I'd be pushing a lot of group geared DPS out of the way. Until they decide to boost everyone else, I don't need to be doing more at the moment. I'm not lagging behind right now and I have no problems killing things. Bla bla dot dot this dot that, leave the dots alone now they're good! Nerf zerkers. Having a single class so far out-scale everyone else is stupid, let me say it again with emphasis STUPID! Balance that WMD
By the way if all you did was read the patch notes [ place holder for patch notes ] <----rofl patch notes. and then come here and complain without casting a single dot and seeing what you can do with the new changes, stop wasting peoples time, go run a parse, see what you can actually do with the changes and then come here and post something constructive. "Quote Nubly Poster_X11X_overscoreX - I can't keel stuff no more awl I kin do ish eal! My clas iz ruint!" Up there ^ is 6 hours of parsing from me keeling stuff moar, yesterday, and I do a good job of it too! Sometimes I heal.
Vindicate, what can you hit, burning, solo buffed, on a test dummy over say 250s with only minimal use of swift dots? Optimizing your twincast vs the increased DoTs from the ones that do increased damage that stay on until completed, that sorta thing? If you can sustain even 150k solo, in group focuses, in that amount of time still, then I'm guessing it could still reach over 300k in a raid environment, which, for most people, would still be considered OP'd for a healing class.
too much is made of dot twin cast, the 500k dot crit, i might see 1-4 of those over an 8 hour play session, that's using fleeting, epic click, and bard support, why shouldn't a shaman focused on dps not be able to break 200k if that's all he's doing? i do agree that 500 700 is too much but i don't raid and would never see those numbers no matter what buttons i mash or what order i mash em in. and as far as 100k dps on a trash mob why the f not? everyone else can and most do considerably more than that, hell tank classes, OTHER PRIEST CLASSES. I don't ever expect or want to top a parse but I should be able to contribute and have the toolset to do more than be a buff vendor. oh and for drop fast, none that i could see, not one of our dots got tripled, but now some are being reduced by 66 percent, which is going to put us in considerably worse shape than we were in before they boosted them
vindicate, I don't play on test so all i have to go by is what gets posted, until the changes go live if you don't like my concerns don't read em. go kill stuff moar and don't be an a@@
