Buddy shaman is looking forward to a nerf, he rules (IMO) at being a shammy (Main since feb 2000), and being the flavour of the month class does not apeal to him. He slows, heals, CCs, and his adps is really good. A moderate bump in dps will make him happy, instead of being in top 3 dps classes. Group EoK mobs die in 10-20 secs with almost no breaks, a good tool for these situations would be great.
Great questions! I too would love to know what I can do in my group gear in 250 seconds! As soon as the Test server comes back up I will immediately parse that. Swift dot use will be very minimal, I'm happy to say, because they don't stack with more useful dots! And, I will be using every burn click at my disposal to get the parse data. I'd be surprised if I can sustain over 125k dps in my group gear self buffed over 250 seconds, and I won't guess at what that means in raid terms because its math, smarter people than I can figure that out on their own. I hate math And, I'm not really sure what most people would consider OPd for a healing class, because I, in fact, am not them, and I can't speak for them. I'm just me, and Me knows that druids have been able to sustain some pretty impressive DPS for a while now. Clerics, however, yea I'd be pretty surprised to see one sustaining any amount of DPS over a typical burn cycle, or any cycle, unicycle, bicycle, or even a tricycle!
I was talking about before this new nerf coming. The poison fast dot that shaman had was over tripled in damage, recast timer removed, and the raid dps restriction that all fast dots had was removed. Wasn't Serpentil's Venom like 7300 damage per tick before the change? Now it's almost 24k currently. That's triple the base damage or more. Even doubling DoT base damage is over the top. The DoTs should have got like a 30% to 50% increase or whatever, not 340%. Point is, it seems like the devs wanted to double / triple DoTs damage in total, however like Super Noobs they increased the BASE damage by that much forgetting about Crits, Crit focus, Spell focus, Self-buffs, and ADPS. So in reality, The damage on that DoT went up by 6-12 times more damage than it was doing before. Also, point being you don't need to be math wiz to know double / tripling DoTs BASE damage is just flat out super stupid. Even my super noobish friend who logs in like once a month to play for 2 hours knew that was insane. If they had even asked one single player in the game before pushing that to live, anyone could have told them that was no where even close to right.
it appears that I may have gone on a rant without all the facts, and that it may not be as bad as it appeared to me. so for any that I offended I apologize, and I will withhold further comment for the time being
The way things are currently on test are to my liking, as far as shaman changes go, I think all things being said it puts shaman in a pretty good place. Not top DPS, still able to kill things, a lot better than they used to be, quickly recastable swift dots are nice, and they make so much sense! You now don't waste nearly as much mana doing basically the same DPS on mobs! Overall the changes seem to be pretty impressively balanced! This makes me very sad though Because! Inevitably! People are going to complain, without ever seeing if the changes actually work, without ever even playing the class to see if its something they can do, the devs are going to listen to players instead of looking at anything substantial, and it'll be nerfed even more, if that isn't what they are currently doing right now I wish there was somebody in the drivers seat up there in developer land that actually took charge, had a plan of action and place they wanted to take the game, and where willing to stick to it despite what the constant bickering player base had to say about it! Instead we've been getting this wishy washy waste of resources fighting changes back and forth over the last, I don't even know how long anymore. Its completely counter productive, we're getting a worse quality game from it, and its being very wasteful of already limited resources! If I had a boot the size of Texas I'd have my foot in it and WAPOW! Right in the drivers seat!
No offense taken at all Shruggz, you have some good points) I haven't got to test out the new changes on test yet but it does look a lot better than before at least. I'm just dumb founded how something like that could ever get pushed to live without someone saying "Hey, this is way way over the top here guys". It blows my mind. It just proves how out of touch they really are. This game on paper and what things are really like are 2 entirely different worlds. Maybe one day the Devs will realize this
Enchanter dot was the same thing its just fell under the radar because they only have one dot like it. It is still an insane amount of damage and boost from a single cast but since they dont have 6 more like it people dont see how powerful that single cast is from the outside. The dot was the same deal it went up like 10 times in base damage despite enchanters having powerful dot stuff.
I tried to compare Old, Live and Test to get an idea of the differences (I was in a rush so hopefully not too many mistakes). Our fast DoTs on test are ~50% better than they used to be. The remaining DoTs are up to 6 times better. <removed table as the formatting was awful, will try to improve>
It was stated. It's also common knowledge that if it hits test it goes live. On a rare occasion this doesn't happen but that is so rare it's hardly talked about.
That isn't actually how it works. For that to be the case, there'd need to be an exponential interaction or something like it. Because some things either don't multiply, or multiply imperfectly, a 3-fold increase in base damage can, at most, increase damage 3-fold. In reality it must be at least slightly less than a 3-fold increase due type 3's and procs and such. The other stuff that multiplies with it doesn't make it grow at an accelerating rate. It scales 1 and 3 by the same relative amount. There's other stuff going on with shaman, but part of the reason it was more than a 3-fold increase, is a lot of the DoTs increased by noticeably more than 300% at the base damage level. Some were more like 900%. Others 500%. I don't think that multiplying it by 3 was the goal. I don't really know what exactly the goal was. Just have the design statement from a year ago to go on.
It is true that Rangers, Beastlords and Enchanters got the exact same exponential boosts to their DoTs, but since their DoTs were much smaller and fewer in number to begin with it wasn't noticed as much. No one really commented on the huge boost to Enchanters specifically, but if they had 5 DoT lines instead of 3 everyone would have been screaming a year ago that Enchanters were a top DPS class. So what they thought was working already wasn't. The problem is the route they chose for the DoT revamp since classes can no longer stack multiple versions of the same DoT line. Instead of increasing and rebalancing all of the DoT lines of each class at each DoT tier as to match current DPS and make all of the DoTs at each tier better than the previous tiers (much more work) they went with exponential growth (much easier/spreadsheet friendly). That has resulted in a miss at lower levels that has resulted in a DPS nerf and way too much damage at higher levels which is magnified by each DoT line. As for Shaman DPS in general, they have always (before the DoT revamp anyway) been able to do roughly 70% of the DPS of a Necro when in DPS mode and given the same support. However, that required Shaman to use the same spell swapping and DoT stacking as Necros so virtually none of them actually did that. Allas the revamp has made that DoT DPS relevant and much much easier to attain for the classes that got them so long neglected spells, abilities and play styles are surfacing again which hadn't been accounted for or tuned around in ages. I seriously doubt they ever intended on having to balance Shaman or Druids as dedicated DPS toons, but with the changes now they do.
Ive been doing it all wrong. I should be boxing my shammie instead of playing it as a main. I would then realize the piss-poor dps that we've been doing for the past several years is exactly the right thing. Sure other class' dps has gone up a large amount so they finally had to bump shammies a little, (but not so much where a group player can contribute to the kill, much less show up anywhere but the bottom line of a parse). As a box toon I would better appreciate how good a shammie makes my real toon look with all the Adps. /sarcasm off Show me another thread where a class says their dps is too high. This is boxers and others not wanting shammies to have even a moment on the parse. A shaman main has been enjoying learning how to manage agro and mana (when their mobs don't die the moment they reach the group) trying to add some dps to all the other things we have been doing. Don't tune the DoTs around boxers complaints - let the shaman mains have a little fun. A shaman actually doing some damage is not a bad thing (even if our nukes still suck, so we really only dps if the mob lives longer than average).
The changes to shaman DoT's are very disappointing. We now do less damage per mana spent than we did before any DoT changes were made at all. Every single DoT is now less efficient than it was in the previous patch. All but the swift DoT's are far worse in efficiency than the original spells. This is the exact opposite of what the patch notes stated the goal was. Mana costs need to be drastically reduced on these DoT's or the damage needs to be bumped way up. Google Spreadsheet
Shaman dps is too high because they're a priest class? So druid dots are also going to be reduced much more than what is currently on test? And also their nukes, because druid dps even before the dot revamp was higher than what shaman currently do after the revamp. They're a priest too, so they're too high right? And what about chanters, every chanter I group with can match my shaman's dps, with less casting even, and they aren't a "real" dps class, so they have to be reduced right? And all the tanks of course are next, they have a single "role" and that's tanking, so they have to be taken down some right? Actually, there's only one dps class now, that's berserkers, no one else is even close. And all the claims of super high shaman dps seem to be coming from raid burns. I know the numbers being thrown around are not possible solo/molo/ even grouping. Got a problem with the raid burn being high (I don't know why you would since if you're in the raid with them then they are only helping you win faster)? I can fix that easily without touching dots. Make fleeting spirit not stack with whatever it is you get in raids that's amping your dots, either certain bard songs or chanter auras. There, your raid dps "issue" is solved and you haven't crippled shaman back to being just buff bots.
you are right the high dps we have seen so far was from raids where fight last for a long time and with other class adps. when group kill last less than a minute , the dps / mana ratio is not that great..
anyway in raids , we had some dot's with lowered efficiency versus boss and all , if we got the same formula with the new dot's , we wouldn 't see big parses during raids , is there any parse with kills for a shaman with the new dot's in a fast killing group? parse in the 30 sec to 45 sec?.. imo it's not the group game the problem, it is the raid env.............
So they nerfed the shamans just when shamans were happy again. I see no mention of the changes for Rogues, Rangers and Wizard's Synergy's not benefiting bards, they undo a change and move backwards. Bugged and posted everywhere for this.
Only cycling the 2 fast dots (because they're mana efficient) was sustaining my shaman about 30k in a fast group, so to nerf it is going to hurt big time .
