Who cares about DPS on a non-trivial event. Problem is, people view DPS parses as an ego measurement of the individual. These types would happily do 8k DPS every event if they can get 2 good burns in a year vs pointless events to show how good they are. I'd much rather see tanks be able to safely optimize (note: not maximize) DPS while not actively tanking on non-trivial events -- even though this will not produce a good parse for the individual. But if this is the attitude that all 8-12 tanks on the raid take, the combined DPS of all these tanks would equal 1-couple real DPS classes. So: Clean burns don't matter for tanks. (ie) If you need to click off your discs to tag adds, that's your job. But that's no excuse to just sit there with auto attack on (and for knights, using 0 mana) for minutes at a time when waiting to tank on non-trivial events, like many supposedly high-end tanks do Tank DPS should be viewed as a collective effort. Tanks take up a big chunk of raid rosters and the collective DPS matters a whole lot more than the minor amount of DPS a single tank can produce
I like your post, though I was of course speaking of a trivial event in my universe. not the non-trivial. The events where; to focus on damage control over dps is unnecessary. And while adopting either posture isn't going to save the day (can afk), the strive to do the most productive thing and test oneself.. that coin toss goes to dps. A dedication to efficiency over laziness. The mto get placed on my etw in case of a surprise, but that's about it. That's getting away from the original question/title of thread though; I've raided/grouped with so many pal/sk over the last few years that for anything to change my view on where high end pal vs sk dps is at, I would need to be seeing something, not hearing it. As I imagine is the case with anyone posting here. We're all posting our thoughts from the bubbles we live in, so it's all fun and casual talk. 'Whispers over the campfire'. Numbers are where it's at. I'd be happy to team up with any paladins on xegony that want to do some dps testing. I've got a three day weekend. I don't mind being wrong, but seeing is believing.
I feel bad for any guild that has any knights or warriors that are not maximizing DPS if they are not currently tanking or #2 on the list. I even look at my own guilds war/knight and face palm when looking at their dps. Its almost like a cleric not using their undead AA stuff on v/v because it would be to much trouble to target them and click a button and then click the MT again. Or a chanter that doesn't do anything if no adds meed their attention. Play your class to the fullest in everything you can.
I was being sarcastic for the first line! I just disagree with some on these forums (not you) who act like the point of tank DPS is getting a handful of good parses vs pointless mobs. Class balance is about what you can do in difficult situations. And tanks shouldn't care about getting a clean parse (aka maximizing DPS for 100% of fight duration), that's not our job. "Optimizing" and "maximizing" DPS are two different things. IE, as a warrior I'll even use mighty and brutal with S&B vs a hard mob if I don't think it'd be safe to use DW or 2H, or sometimes DW instead of 2H vs AE rampers. This achieving the goals of firstly being safe, and secondly not leaving free DPS on the table.
The amount of times I've died because of being summoned or turned on after a tank dies while DPS makes me want to consider never DPSing again, but I do it anyways because I'm stubborn. Nothing is more annoying than DPSing a mob on one side of the room, being summoned out of the blue by another mob (due to previous aggro build up) and dying instantly because the craptastic 2H negative effects leave me more vulnerable than a robe-wearing wizard dropping a load off at the porcelain throne. That and no matter what I rotate in non tanking situations on raids, my dps is still utter garbage compared to just about any class that's not a tank. DPS as a tank is just disheartening and soul-draining.
I don't think this is specific to tanks tbh. Wayyyyyyy too many people will hold all their crap for the burn moment (stacking be damned!) and do subpar dps the other 95% of the time, leading to a piss poor sustained and thus overall parse, which is significantly more important. Not that burn doesn't have it's uses, but folks obsession with it is pretty silly, regardless of class.
The problem is that kamea assumes a goofing off full burn is the only thing someone who tries to hit those numbers cares about. Everything is based off of burns or at least it should be. Ignoring burn example. X class let's call it warriors because his blood will boil by this example Can do static 100k dps and so that is marginal at best by today's standards. So the devs give out % based abilities to up that number. Let's say a ability gives y % totaling a new number if 200k static dps. That new ability fully mods and fully stacks. Place x class into a dos group and now that guy does 700k dps which we ignore and call balanced because ignore burnz guyz It is ignorant to assume a person capable of maxing a burn is also not just as competent at maximizing sustained and combined. If you are trying to balance you don't just ignore potential. Otherwise Paladins should get more dps since 7th shouldn't be factored. A great player can do their primary role secondary role and any form of other playstyle as the content demands map out events and pick the optimal times to do each and everything the class is capable of. I burned for the Luke and luxury never once missed a tanking assignment for the Tom foolery and when not tanking maxed out both healing and dps across events. He assumes a player just stands there otherwise
Pretty hard to do with Physicality 7-10 and 2H on. I've love to him him tank with a 2h, or just about any wep, then.
No tank is living with 7+ on for long regardless of what you have equipped, but good one off to bring up. And because of this rare one of exception, you are allowed to suck the rest of the time
Two problems: 2H aggro is radically higher than it should be // Warriors (and pals too for that matter) need a way to heavily reduce aggro, if not drop it all together -- I feel like the fade nerf was aimed at DPS balance, but tanks are the ones that actually generate larges amount of aggro and 'should' have the means to control it
Tanks do have the ability to control your agro, turn off the AA that enables the 50% more agro(having a brain fart with the name of it atm). If one tank is generating that much, have a pally marr's them. Also have the other tank use more agro, a tank in dps mode should never overtake the other tanks. Also you can get agro buff from your local hated sk. Also, you complain about the 2h agro, poor zerkers, and yeah I have ganked agro with my zerker, and silent strikes is a long recast, and the other de agro abilities they have suck.
Bold Attacks. And that does nothing if I'm the person who purposely built up the aggro while tanking before the next person in line stepped in. No matter what I'll just be summoned if he dies and be whacked out of the blue. Flash cannot be used and the healers won't be ready for it so I'm almost certainly a dead man. If I manage to live a hit round I swap to my SB and hit flash and will survive, but it's just something that I shouldn't have to worry about post-tanking DPS. Another issue is that many warrior abilities have detriments while using SB besides the normal of losing shield block, shield ac, stats, etc. 2H drops my dodge/parry skills. Vehement Rage decreases the healing onto me, and Offensive increases damage intake by 35%. So I'm taking 130% damage, being healed for 80% of normal, and dodge/parry 40% of normal. The only way to avoid it is: the CT fade clicky that I can use once a night or stand there with my thumb up behind. Both are not feasible options.
While I realize option 2 is popular amongst your community good sir, you might find these handy? lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=76332 While they're not totally foolproof and won't usually blur you, a successful fd lowers your aggro by a lot and they have a pretty darn short short reuse!
Some of the replies from knights here re: boss tanks lowering and/or dropping aggro seem pretty ignorant. It shows they have little experience doing it and must in guilds that don't use them as boss tanks. When you just finish tanking and someone else tags the mob from you, usually you don't have many (if any) survival abilities left --- hence, you asked for someone else to take over. And by definition, you're still extremely high on aggro. When the tank after you dies, and you have little/nothing to tank with, the last you want if to get unwanted aggro from that boss. The fade nerf was not aimed at tanks, but it effected warriors and paladins. The vast majority of times I used fade vs bosses before it was nerfed was not to rest etc. I could've cared less if my aggro dropped to 0%, 1%, or 20%. I just wanted to dramatically decrease my hate so I wouldn't draw aggro if the tank before me died and I didn't want to tank. And I say this as someone who purposefully builds large amount of when waiting to tank 'if' I'm ready, because I trust my reaction times to get flash/fort off in time.
Yes, not disagreeing that the fade nerf impacted war/pal. But, uhhhhh, how does the FD potion not accomplish exactly what you're trying to do? (I.e., drop yourself down to a safer aggro level). It's poor as heck game design to be reliant on them obviously, but it works, no? In the same situations you describe I wouldn't bother to fade, I'd just FD and it's more than enough hate reduction.
This. If they a nominal price, that'd be one thing. But I used to fade a lot. You're talking about 150k-200k / month to keep up with the way I'd use fade before the nerf. If they see FD as acceptable, why not just give us a FD AA on the same reuse timer as fade.
