you people are nuts, SK owns sad pally dps oh and they can also hold AE agro better and FD. SK has many advantages over a paladin. and im a pally btw
SK DPS is the strongest it has been relative to other tanks in years. However, tank DPS relative to DPS classes is the weakest it has been in years.
1) SK burst & sustained dps is higher than paladin dps. If the mobs are undead, that brings paladins into the competition, probably with a bit of an advantage (Though i always expect to out dps them on a 2 minute burn regardless). 2) They're both tanky. Paladins can become highly resistant to spells for a short while, shadow knights get an extra mitigation disc. Shadow knight aggro is generally higher. 3) Paladins are a little higher in demand in most places than shadow knights. This is because a paladin is playable as both a tank and a healer. You have a more flexible raid force when your tanks can act as healers.
No, it isn't. If you haven't seen a high end paladin burst, you wouldn't know. But it's very high. I like your sarcasm .
I don't know much about paladins other than their slay undead ability is pretty stout, therefore I cannot comment on which is better. I do know that I have parsed w/ a 2H @ 149k DPS during a full burn as a SK. However, that is a short 2min burst. I really think it boils down to how every individual plays their class and if that person knows their class well enough to use it to its full potential. Its the same rule with SK swarming, just because you make a SK doesn't mean you can automatically swarm. Takes a lot of learning of the class and practice.
No sarcasm paladin deepus needs some love! Although really I am just glad I am not guilded with some of these head in the sand types. Though legitimately SKS might beat us on 60s parse I haven't been around any that know how to do more than wait to kite it's hard to tell. But that's a big maybe and they'd prolly need LT and TL crits to do it and pray for some luck.
Tank sustain could use some help, though if you're in a high end group they're using pulling a decent amount (melee group), due to adps and pulling a metric ton of mobs at a time. Burn wise, paladins are great. I'm strictly talking about their burn numbers when talking about their dps, in my former post. Still sounds sarcastic, or disingenuous at the least. You're usually someone that is serious about a lot of posts, and don't use unfair, at least from what I have seen, about subjects you're knowledgeable about, or "Haha". It could be you don't know what you class can burn for (I believe you are a paladin main now, you use to be an SK for awhile), due to not getting adps (since it's better served for melee dps, though Paladin burn is "very" high).
LOL no its not - not by a long shot. Upcoming DoT changes may help on long fights (obviously not short ones so much) but SKs need more melee oriented dps. SK 2her dps is equal or less than 1her ISS dps for Warriors. Warriors and Paladins have multiple ways to drastically burn via melee (ex. Mighty, Onslaught, Heroic & Righteous, Valorous, Holyforge, Pureforge) while SKs have VoD (Carmine only increases min dmg)... SKs badly need a crit / cripple disc & Carmine needs to add a HHE & crit damge boost.
Paladin burn simply stacks better with manaburn than the other Tanks. Also, things like 7th year vet add much more to our burn. Paladin burn numbers will be noticeably lower soon with the changes coming to MB. Also, Shadowknights do sustain more damage, especially when considering optimal/average spell sets both classes are most likely to utilize. Not really comparable sustained wise if not talking undead.
Depends if you're solo/molo, or in a real raid group. Tanks do amazing dps if you have a raid group, in group content (tanking multiples all the time). Are they zerker level? No, but I don't think they should be. A really good tank puts out really nice dps. I don't think they should compete on single target, but their dps strength lies in the fact that they're tanking so many, and doing well that way. It's a matter of opinion, but I think, atm, tanks do fine dps (they're, outside of burn, low on single target (though i don't know where I'd actually put them)). Many tanks in high end guilds (RoI, etc...) agree with me, but they probably won't admit it on the forums. On another note, if you want to do more dps, shouldn't your tanking take a hit if you're attempting equilibrium? You're using other classes dps to justify a boost, but no one, outside the 3 tanks, can tank, well enchanters (!!!), a metric ton of mobs in current content. Even without long use cooldowns they tank way more than any other class, like they should, so I'm not so sure how much, if any, dps we should add to tanks. Edit: changed . to ?
Burn DPS is heavily inflated these days. Sure a 250k DPS tank parse may sound amazing, but it's actually historically low. A couple years ago, tanks could regularly get to 60-70% of zerker DPS. These days it's more like 35%-40%. Depends on what you mean by "tanking." As a warrior I have NP with (ie) stuff sharing reuse time with aggro discs, as that mirrors knights having to saw spell sets, but Offensive Disc is designed about as well as Act of Valor -- Locking out LS and potentially getting us 1-rounded to AE ramp to increase our DPS by 5-10% is not a smart trade.
Which expansion are you talking about? A couple of years ago sounds like RoF / VoA. They were doing close to 60%/ probably 60% if not talking the absolute highs, but not 70% (I'm talking about VoA in this instance). But, currently, tanks can burn higher than 250k dps, so why did you choose that number? Zerkers are an outlier here, we should be using other classes when discerning tank dps numbers. For example, paladins in a raiding environment could potentially put up the same burn dps as a magician. Would their sustain be higher? Nope, not going to pretend it should be. So I don't see why a tank should be 70% the dps of zerkers, I know you didn't directly make that argument, when a dps class, magician, isn't even there; it will be even worse when manaburn is changed in the upcoming patch. I'm fine with tanks getting small sustained boosts, but it drives me nuts when people say tanks can't burn, yet their burn numbers, when they have adps, are really good (RiP Necro burn). Granted, most people don't know what they're (I didn't til a buddy informed me, then I jumped on a raid geared knight and did some tests, since I rarely parse knights), including people that play that class. This is a valid point, and I'm aware of that. But, you don't see hybrids, maybe you do and I've just never seen it (Weapon Shield doesn't count in my book), tanking 20/30/40 mobs in TBM and getting healed through it. I honestly don't know where you need to be to strike the perfect balance, but if you're currently a walking fortress compared to other classes, how much dps is enough to keep balance? I do think tanks need a single target sustain boost, most my comments have been directed at burn numbers and misinformation. I'd prefer it be tactful enough that it allows them to molo 1 or 2 mobs at a time faster, but not add to the already crazy swarming abilities of tank classes, currently. On the subject of sustain, it depends whom/who you're asking about sustain, and what they think of tank sustain. Again, single target could def. use some help. I don't think too much, but a little. While in groups tanks actually do a decent amount of dps because they're tanking (DENYU!!!), if they aren't using merc healers, a large number of mobs; riposte damage adds up.
I only recall 2 times that a paladin has ever beaten me on a raid burn in roi during TBM. And one of those times, I was still using the previous expansions raid weapon and he was not. He also had +10% dps aug for raid /ach, I did not. I often burn on Grummus, and on the Vim/Vigor event. There's at least a couple of paladins in my guild that like to put out a good burn. Where are these super paladins you speak of enkel? Are they real?
