Paladin Wishes

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Allayna, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. blinder Journeyman

    I'm all for having additional AE aggro as long as we're not limited to 8 mobs. In fact, remove that off our existing (terrible) AE AA's while we're at it.
    Allayna likes this.
  2. Ofearl Augur

    Hate in general for us blows. I can mash buttons and taint and crushes and hardly keep a mob on me! Yet if another pally is tanking and I use a two hander I’ll gank agro with crushes, stuns, not useing taunt!!! Then an SK with harmonious running will yank my mob from across the room!

    I know we are not a DPS class, but why cant a fully raid geared paladin be able to atleast sustain 200-210k dps, 300+ on a burn. I’m not talking haveing all the right conditions. I could do it in RoS with glyphs, bard, etc all on indead, if not better, now in TBL 130-150 ish average
    blinder likes this.
  3. Livvy_CT Lorekeeper

    I would be happy with just aggro upgrades personally, I sorta get we can heal, so we can’t dps as well as other tanks, but there’s no reason I can see as to why we can’t have equivalent aggro abilities
    Allayna and blinder like this.
  4. Thancra Augur

    More aggro generation, a bit more dps.
  5. p8aa Elder

    Not convinced that paladins need some DPS increase (but not starting any debate in this thread).
    More single target aggro, yeah i fully agree, aggro is way better for paladins than last 2 years ago, but no reason that single target aggro of paladin being still behind the other 2 tank classes . Crush instant cast would help a lot to fill a gap, also would increase a bit paladin DPS too in some reasonable way, especially sustained ?. I think paladins could use an aggro increase % that could be sustained more. Removing the hits counter of Preservation of Rodcet as i think some paladin (don't remember who) suggested it. Would give paladins a permanent 15 % aggro mod that they could use when they need the aggro.
    Regarding AE aggro, i'm probably going to generate a tank debate, but I think paladin AE aggro should remain behind warrior AE aggro, what would it be if paladin get a new good AE aggro disc and warriors don't ?
    Valiant defense 2 k + hate around is similar to Harmonious expanse 2 k + hate.
    Is Beacon of the righteous and Hallowed Lodestar still on 1 min 30 and 5 min reuse after all hastened AA ? Could remove the target limit of 8 and also unlink them so can be used separately.
    Compared to warriors Dragonstrike Blade 40 ish recast, Wade Into Battle 5 min reuse, AE taunt 5 min reuse, these changes would still put paladin AE aggro behind warriors.
    Mitigation wise, should be about time paladins get their Reaver's Bargain version, to respect mitigation parity tools between paladins and SK.
  6. Allayna Augur

    I don’t know warriors. Yes our only 2 AA AE aggro are still on 1.5 min cool down. The have a target limit but are not tied to each other. Valiant is spammed in the first spell gem and doesn’t compare to the AE hate generated by the other two tanks...I’m often left with a feeling of, “wish I had an AE up”. The pull speed and kill speed of both group and raid should allow for a faster re-use.

    The suggestion that Sithsonn originally made, for pallies to have a new spell line that is AE HTT is $$$$$.
    Livvy_CT likes this.
  7. p8aa Elder

    Warriors are in the same boat. I listed you our real AE aggro abilities. And we don't have much AE aggro hate over time on ours. This is why we asked for some new AE aggro tools too in the warrior need threads :)
  8. Maedhros Augur

    We have seen the AA consolidation over the last few years and we know asking for brand new AA is a pretty lost cause.
    The best bet is to find the areas that need attention the most; spells or AA that have become stagnant and try to get upgrades to those.

    First and foremost on our needs, along with just about anyone else with a blue bar, is we need that additional spell bar slot. There are 40 spells I would load if I could. More than any other classes, knights and especially paladins suffer from the inability to quickly change between spell sets while we are tanking. I can burn Deflection or Shield flash and make a quick spell set swap if need be, but how I wish I could mem different spell slots while standing, moving around or actively tanking. The need to sit to swap spell sets is a major limitation.

    It will be interesting to see which spells get the 115 upgraded versions this year.

    It was a pretty huge let down to not get Valiant Diversion upgrade when we hit 110 in ROS. I am relatively certain that I cast that spell more than any other. Additionally, despite a few peoples claim that this is a big time AE agro spell, it really is not in practice. When I hit Beacon or Hallowed Lodestar, they work to noticeably grab AE agro, Valiant Diversion does not. I am not saying that it should be, but it has been pointed to in the past during AE agro discussions and it needs to stay the hell out of said discussion. We NEED the upgrade to Valiant Diversion immediately with this years expansion, not 2 or 3 expansions from now.

    Our stuns and crushes should be instant cast. This is supremely overdue. The inability of paladins to cast spells with full confidence that they will not be interrupted while we are tanking multiple mobs is a fact of life that the other two tank classes do not have to contend with to any similar degree of difficulty. Nearly everything is instant cast abilities for a warrior, and a high amount of SK stuff is instant or nearly instant.
    Almost every single spell a paladin can cast suffers from the chance of being interrupted while tanking. Notable exceptions being Dissident Force (1 minute recast) and Refute for Honor.
    This means I spend so much time trying to get and maintain agro, that I am finding less time to cast my self heals and of course, those can be interrupted as well.

    Preservation of Rod'cet could really benefit from increasing the total proc counter significantly.

    Revitalizing Steel has a ton of potential but definitely needs tuning. To the contrary of some of the other paladins in this thread, I find great usefulness in having a decent sized heal proc. The obvious benefit is that the heal trigger is instant cast. That means while I am fumbling around trying to get and maintain agro through my interruptions and fizzles this spell is one of the few things I can count on landing. In the group game it is an easy choice to dump Splash for Steel, and even in the raid game it can be useful for the HOTT healing on the main tank though you obviously cannot dump Splash for Steel on most raids. I agree that there are times when I struggle to find a spell bar slot to put it in, but to say that it does not have massive upside in certain scenarios is just foolish. I'd like to see the recast time cut in half, and the total proc amount doubled.
    Of course I would kill to have this spell line converted to an AA but that seems pretty unlikely.

    Censure and Protective Devotion are two of our slower casting spells that fairly universally find their way onto paladin spell bars. They both could really benefit from getting a reduced cast time down into the ballpark of .5 seconds or so.

    In the dps department, I have been trying for years during every BETA to get upgrades to Holyforge which at 19 years is old enough to vote in this years elections and buy cigarettes, and Pureforge which is going on 9 years old and is starting to yell at its parents for no reason and listen to angsty music.
    Copy and paste and add a few numbers to the percentages and call it a day.

    Valorous rage suffered a massive nerf and has been stagnant ever since. It needs a new rank that adds just a few more percentage points to the things it already does, or alternatively leave it the same but shorten the reuse timer significantly.

    I am fairly satisfied with most of our AA but many of them will need increases for the new expansion to keep up with inflation. Especially Beacon of the Righteous and Hallowed Lodestar.

    Our discs have suffered since the massive nerf to Spell Casting Reinforcement AA.
    All hybrid classes need an additional AA that increases the duration of our discs the way it used to, but at a lesser percentage. 25 - 35% would be wonderful.

    The thing that hurts is that many of the older disc lines were created at a time when Spell Casting Reinforcement affected discs, and thus the duration of the discs were set with that AA in mind.
    Of course when the copy and paste for level increase expansions takes place, we are seeing a simple copy of the original disc durations that are now drastically out of tuning.
    Alternatively, every single hybrid disc should be examined and the disc durations should be increased to an appropriate amount.

    I think these notations are a lot of the bread and butter of areas that need attention without getting too creative (read unlikely to happen).
  9. Wulfhere Augur

    I disagree because I think that part of the reason for AA consolidation was to "make room" for new AA. Case in point: Gift of Life (and a new rank please)
    You can also use a mount or cast Divine AA (spell or AA) to swap spells. Agreed that another spell gem is always super valuable to spell casting classes.
    Valiant Heal +hatemod was nerfed (to match warrior Expansive Disharmony) while witness check was being fixed. Agreed that this has become a go to spell line deserving of another level upgrade.

    I like all of your suggestions. To add:

    I would also like upgrades to:
    1. Harmonious Blessing.
    2. Gift of Life
    3. Hand of Piety
    4. Lay on Hands
    5. Slay Undead

    I would like to see Holy Fulmination changed from a DD+Stun to something very much like druid's Bosquetender's Fulmination (AE heal + damage shield). I'm thinking paladin alliance can follow the model of Censure spells, providing spell damage focus as it does now, but changing the fulmination to one of AE healing + protection (e.g. SPA 451).
  10. Brohg Augur

    The version in my head is paladin Covenant taking over the slot 1 HOT in raids, mostly superseding cle elixir / shm cloud, and filling what's usually a gap in druid-group heals. Half minute duration so two pal can keep it on the raid just barely if they're well coordinated and three paladins would "naturally" blanket the raid (as long as they keep on top of their Covenant). The priest Alliance heals don't get focused; depends on code but a HOT version might not either, so it'd probably have to be on the order of 50k/tick.

    AND two-point-.whatever mil dmg /nods
  11. Wulfhere Augur

    Merciful Fury line needs a huge boost to dps. Either by damage or proc rate mod, or both.
    My weapon proc causes more damage then this self buff.
    Stephen51 likes this.
  12. shiftie Augur

    Inquisitors judgement should have its base damage doubled, so it is noticeable when it is clicked again.

    Fury should have the base of IJ. At 2-4 ppm it’s an easy way to control dps. Alternatively add a line to the spell with a spot for righteous indignation type proc

    Improve thunder of Karana
    Add a spell base dmg mod and increase the crit rate amount.

    If also like to see an accuracy mod attached to one of our spells.
  13. Lubianx Augur

    I have mentioned this a few times but one of my wishes is to double the length of the pally Aegolism line of buffs. It would still be less than half the length of the cleric equivalent and there is no reason for it not to be extended

    Improvements in our single target argo would be great. At least make crushes and stuns 0 cast time. Speaking of stuns remove the undead only stun. It's useless, especially in its current form. Replace it with the no cure splash heal as others have mentioned

    Also, as mentioned, give us a new alliance with an increase in the damage and a PBAE heal (or HoT) instead of the stun as the fulmination

    We also still need an upgrade to our Harmonious line which we never received in TBL.

    One other thing I would love is sort of a self only DI type of spell. It doesn't have to be a DI but it could auto trigger LoH on ourselves the same way a DI would proc if the buff is on and LoH is up. Add this buff as a part of our unity AA
  14. p8aa Elder

    I doubt stuns instant cast will ever happened.
  15. Stephen51 Augur

    I know this is only a minor thing, and I don't see it as something as a wish, rather an improvement of the mechanic.

    Can we have Protective Devotion line not remove/block Cleric Vie line?

    Protective Devotion has a better mitigation than Vie but has a far shorter duration and is a short term buff as opposed to Vie being a "proper" buff.

    It's not so much a problem if I am the MT, and there is a healer merc, because at the end of any fight it will re-cast it, without complaint. However while in raid if you are casting this on the MT, you more or less have to dedicate yourself to it full time or else the MT will lose this and Vie's mitigation.

    I'm not asking for the two spells to stack up - I appreciate that the higher mitigation would be the only active one but when Protective Devotion wears off, it would be helpful if Vie was still on the person.
  16. Wulfhere Augur

    I agree with this.
    Btw, can anyone give another example of a song buff overwriting a standard buff? I suspect this is a rare occurrence for any 2 spells (and dare I say it a "bug").
  17. shiftie Augur

    It was moved to that slot to Avoid conflicts with shining rampart. That buff was rarely used at the time.
  18. Wulfhere Augur

    Dichotomic/Dissident Force and Divine Stun already are instant cast time.

    Paladins are way behind on receiving instant cast spell upgrades already granted to the other knight class to better perform their duties. The bias is laughable.
  19. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    As an SK, I fully support instant cast Pally stuns. There needs to be better equity between the 2 Knight classes. For purely tanking potential and capability, they should be interchangeable.
  20. Wulfhere Augur

    Yes true but is that Slot 1 competition the reason? I don't recall bard songs stripping away standard buffs.

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