Nec/Sk Dot Revamps

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Nekk, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. ~Mills~ Augur

    And wizards ALWAYS went out of mana 50% faster than every other class, yet here we are. You also were a burst class and sucked at sustain, yet here we are. OOC regen in the group game and insane mana tools they have provided both self and from others broke wizards dynamic.

    I think we can all agree the general rules went out the window long ago. So you can't hold some classes to extinct ideals when others do pretty much whatever they want these days and are bound by nothing.
  2. mmats Augur

    The point was that people keep saying how great necro dps is when they can unload on 5 unmezzed mobs, comparing that number to mage/wiz single target dps instead of AE dps... Its a straw man.

    Bottom line is necros are not where they should be in the short game imo, regardless of the number of mobs in camp. I am not saying they should match wiz dps, just that necros need a bump in short duration fights - even at the cost of giving up some long term dps. Wizards are obviously the least versatile of the 3 classes. They should either be ahead at all durations, or be so far ahead at short duration fights that it justifies necros matching/passing them slightly at long durations.

    And I agree mages need more balancing, along with many other classes.
  3. kizant Augur

    We still do. Only druids and rangers have it worse than wizards. I explained this earlier in the thread. To compete with necro DPS on events like sathir's line I have to use staunch recovery and even then I always finish under 30% mana. Often I don't have any. Keep in mind I already click everything, cut back on force nukes, line up dicho/alliance with gom, and always have lots of paragons.

    What insane mana tools? Our robe is 20k every 10mins, AA harvest is 20k every 5 minutes, and gambit is around 20k every 7 minutes. That's about 9k mana per minute when I can use all of that in 1 cast. We rely on low dps claw casts to replenish mana and to refresh our spell gems for more gambits. The class has been trained to do sustained mode just to keep going.

    And you really think that compares to the other casters? Watch a mage go from 0 to full mana in 10 seconds by sacrificing dogs sometime. Or a necro who just never needs mana in the first place. Wizards actually have to rely on OOC regen from time to time and can't recovery instantly after death.

    Yes, the classes have changed over the years and the game is much different now. I'm definitely not trying to hold us to the old rules. When people try that I've been pointing out when they've been wrong and misunderstood the old game in the first place. Some people here remember a game that never existed. That said, I listed the abilities of a class like necros which give them an advantage and accounts for the lower DPS in comparison to wizards. I don't see any argument against that.
  4. kizant Augur

    That's fair and I agree they do need a bump in the short game dps but it is tricky to balance with raids.
  5. ~Mills~ Augur

    So its ok if you have ways to compete with necros in raid sustained 15 minutes into a fight, because reasons. But necros can't be a viable group dps class because it infringes on your wizardly views.

    Paragon, focused paragon, rallying call, staunch, whatever clerics is called now, robe mana click, aa mana, spell mana, nukes that can refresh spell mana instantly, enchanter support, bard support, mana potions, shawl procs, weapon procs, shield procs, aug procs, mod rods. Total the impact up from all this plus your normal combat regen from buffs and its where you can go 15 or 20 minutes basically full out and claims since its a make believe struggle its ok. No longer casting your AA nukes and or swapping from a 10k dps spell to a 5k dps spell that can refresh your spell mana and twincast spell really isn't changing much from going all out so don't try and sell me on you having to actually manage your resources.

    No reason to debate further as you have it in your head that wizards should have a shot a # 1 in any setting always.
  6. kizant Augur

    You need to learn to read. I can't go full out even with staunch. I limit my use of AA nukes and time gom with dicho/alliance. Wizards go through and require a lot more mana than most classes. I have all those things that you listed and still it's not enough and I lose regularly to other casters.

    Also, maybe you're not aware but staunch recovery is not a wizard ability. It's a veteran AA that you can only use once every like 3 days. Not everyone has it and it's not something you balance around. If you fail on that 1st attempt of sathir's line or raid more than 1 event where it's needed every 3 days then you're out of luck. It's a very special case and most people save it for emergencies and don't gamble on it for their DPS.

    Right now, there is only one scenario where Wizard DPS is #1 and that's very short duration AE fights. We rely on forced rejuv and our 1 beam being rather good. But once you hit over a minute we're definitely going to fall behind. I also haven't seen me ask for any wizard buffs so, again, I don't understand what you're talking about. If I thought wizards should always be #1 then why aren't I asking for buffs?
  7. ~Mills~ Augur

    Your exact initial comment that I replied to.

    Necros were not meant to keep up with you in burst but you were not meant to keep up with our sustained. Yet one of us changed and here you are claiming its ok for you but not necros. At this point there are more burstained dps classes then there are dps classes adhering to the old tuning of either bursting well or sustaining well but never both for long. So spare me the nonsense about why necros need to be kept in check for 90% of the game aka the group game because they are ok if the few current raids that last 5 minutes or more.

    Literally the longest event in current raiding and your competing and thats with necro's essentially AE'ing the majority of the fight. You guys shouldn't be competing after 5 minutes never mind 10 or 15 regardless of the tools used. But thats not the game today as its not just wizards bursting high and competing out to those duration's its also enchanters, druids, mages, rangers, beastlords, berserkers that all can compete out to very long durations while also having massive burst capability. That all translate into super high group dps as well.

    I haven't seen a single necro claim they wanted to compete for the top dps spot in groups. Or that they needed to have drastically higher dps, just higher dps then present in the group game. In fact most have stated the exact opposite saying they just wanted to be shifted forward more for some higher burst and better group dps but at the cost of giving up some dot stack power so over time it remained about the same but we had more front loaded capability. They have repeatedly stated they want nothing like the current mistakes that were made with other classes dot revamps in terms of tuning as its just stupid.

    Yet here you and a few others are essentially saying no no no your class isn't meant to be doing that because of the old ways. The old ways that seemingly apply to no one else anymore including tanks and priests.
  8. Sancus Augur

    And we should be comparing them while they use their aura.

    I did some testing with it tonight, and it appears the spell it casts (Decay Effect I/II/III) hits every 3 seconds for the full damage listed in the spell parser. My Necro only has Rank 2 (106403 damage), and it was taking "a tainted orbweaver's" in the HoT Feerott, which have ~335k HP, to 5% in 3 hits. It's worth noting that there is a log line for each hit (A tainted orbweaver's body withers.), but there is an initial hit that doesn't produce any message. It seems to last for 11 hits counting the initial one over 30s.

    That means, overall, it would do ~37,241 DPS per mob at Rank 3. That DPS doesn't scale at all with burns or anything, whereas Mage/Wizard AEs definitely do. Necros can also multi-DoT or DoT up the last mob on xtar at the same time though, since they only have to cast the aura once every 30 seconds. Another downside of the aura is the mobs need to consistently be in the same area, which is definitely a bigger limitation than that of Mage/Wizard AEs. It's very low risk though since it doesn't attribute it's aggro to the Necro (beyond a very small value).

    I decided to take my Beam parses and put the Necro aura on the same chart. My Beam parses were with no mods running, but to not skew the chart too much I did include Beam DPS when twincasting (I just divided the Beam DPS by 1.05 and then doubled that number for an approximation)


    So you can see that, by itself, the Necro aura does more DPS than a Mage spamming beam without burns and such. With TC a Mage does more DPS, and other burns/ADPS would also contribute to that damage (but not the Necro aura damage). Still, though, you're comparing the totality of Mage casts to one aura that only needs to be recast every 30s. Doesn't seem like a terrible deal IMO.

    I think Necro DPS is quite good in scenarios with enough mobs, even when compared to Mages/Wizards AEing. I think the real issue is when there aren't many mobs. I totally agree in that scenario that Necros will be doing a good deal less than an equal skilled Mage/Wizard/etc, and they probably could use some help. If there are only a few mobs in camp at a time, then I definitely agree with Shennron that a Necro is likely doing 1/2 the damage of a Mage or Wizard. I do think some Necros over-exaggerate their weaknesses in the group game and downplay their strengths, though.

    It's also probably worth noting that one cast every 30s can easily net a Necro 100-200k DPS in a raid setting that isn't recorded at all on a parser.
    IblisTheMage, mmats and kizant like this.
  9. kizant Augur

    1. The fact that wizards NEED staunch to be able to compete is evidence that we are not able to keep up with necro sustained DPS. Exactly how you want it to be. Arguing otherwise is just silly.

    2. You misunderstand the nature of Sathir's line. It is both a sustained fight that benefits necros as well as an AE fight that benefits wizards. On our last raid there were 42 short lived adds to AE and I used beam 43 times. Granted, we were short a group last week and the fight doesn't usually last that long. The point is that it *shouldn't* be as clear a win for necros as a simple single or dual target long duration fight would be. Don't blame me because there's not a good raid for necros. I don't see a high bokon equivalent this time around either that would be a strong wizard event.

    My position is that necros need a small increase in group DPS. They also need the dot revamp to fix dot stacking/max buff slots issues. And of course Wiz group DPS should be compared to zerkers and rogues more than other casters. You guys have lots of utility to make soloing and grouping easier that we don't have. It's obvious to anyone and you're not making a clear argument for anything that I can tell. Talking about some 'burstained' nonsense isn't helping either.
  10. kizant Augur

    Even an additional 50k DPS from that aura means I'm not even competing anymore in really any event. They need to get that damage recorded before making adjustments if it's that high.
    mmats likes this.
  11. Brohg Augur

    It's not my feeling that something describable as "adjustements" is remotely in the offing. The necromancer's 30-spell fighting linup indicates a need for nearly a full class rebuild. Having aura damage be reported to clients should certainly be fixed (I strongly suspect that would fix Queen Velazul's sunlight and Drusella's purpleness at the same time) but is pretty unrelated to the Fabled Dot Revamp
  12. Siddar Augur

    The Aura is designed to kill large number of green cons. It take two minute of it to kill normal EoK mobs. The EoK version expanded the killing power from green con to lite blue ones. Was that a intentional change? Was the damage increase on the EoK aura meant to compensate for the linking of necro swarm pet spells. Are was it a accidental one cause by developer not understand damage ticks were every three second and not usual six seconds.

    The spell is historical anomaly anyway it wasn't upgraded in RoS. So it will fade away as a useful spell line overtime.
  13. mmats Augur

    kizant likes this.
  14. menown Augur

    Thank you for the correction.

    As a continuation of my post. I wanted to estimate what values the Necro DoTs would be per tick. There were several ways that I could do this, but they all had problems. First of all, hardly any necro uses the same spell weave for any given raid. Secondly, necros do parse differently. So thinking of a baseline for adjustment was a little tricky.

    My first step was to choose which DoT within a line would be the higher value DoT.
    Step 1:
    Pyre > Ignite
    Venom > Ashen
    Haze > Grasp
    Ferreth > Effluvium (except when plant)
    Decay > Shadow

    Now normally Shadow is a higher value DoT than Decay. I chose to follow a theme where the lower value DoT adds another contribution. Ignite is also a mana drain. Ashen is a group HoT. Grasp is a HoT. Effluvium is a plant bane DoT. Shadow adds a lifetap mod. Also, I did not add Dicho to the list here because it is a dying DoT, just like Wilting Foliage and Scourge of Fates. I will address the damage issue with Dicho later on.

    Step 2 is to calculate the base values, after consolidation. Here I added up the base values of all MY raid lineup, within base duration groups. This is to ensure that the base damage, after all DoTs are applied, remains the same from before revamp to after. This is only an approximation because the Data I used was my own, even though every necromancer that I talk to has a different lineup. As you can see below, the Grip and Darkness lines received no adjustment. Neither of these lines could stack with themselves before the revamp. And because druid debuff DoTs received the same non-adjusted treatment, I can safely assume that these 2 DoT lines will not be adjusted at all.

    Step 3, I had to adjust the values of some lines to become more balanced. I defined balance for DoTs as: shorter duration DoTs having higher base tick values, and longer duration DoTs having higher Total dmg. As you can see in the graph above, there is a negative correlation between base tick values in the bolded boxes and the DoTs duration. A positive correlation occurs with the DoTs duration and their total damage. The method that I used to adjust the DoTs was to subtract a total of 30k from the total damage w/out extension column of the 30 second duration DoTs, and then adding the same value across both 42 second duration DoT's total values.

    As far as Dicho goes, I did not fully account for it's damage. However, there is an additional DoT that I will add to my weave that I never used before. The disease Grip line. This still does not fully account for the loss of Dicho. Further adjustments will need to be made.

    This post has not yet adjusted for the faster ramp time, nor the extra downtime between reapplying DoTs. More adjustments will need to be made. Also, values will need to be added for ignite, ashen, grasp, effluvium, and shadow spells.
    Sancus likes this.
  15. Forcallen Augur

    There is nothing we can say or do that will impact what he is going to do at this point. He is going to do whatever plan he came up with months if not years ago, right or wrong, and we get to ride out the storm.
  16. xaga Elder

    Would be cool if they even piped up on this thread......
  17. axedat New Member

    Would be great to see any news on this at all. Dead silence when Necros/SK are the only classes left to revamp is maddening. I've held off on making a necro for this reason - what's the point if they wont bother to revamp the main dot class ?
  18. Ibudin Augur

    Oh good thing you held off making a necro - probably be too hard for you to play anyways.
  19. Gnomeland Augur

    So I'm wondering how many necromancers still play this game any way? On prime time these days I see half as many necromancers as mages, wizards, and enchanters - actually more like one fourth the amount of mages and enchanters. Were it the case the class is fine, I'd expect to see a lot more. Doing half as much damage in a typical box group probably has a lot to do with it, since only well-equipped, usually raid groups pull multiple monsters at the same time and they rarely need to play more than a month after release due to rate of experience. The rest are just box and casual groups.

    Personally, I think balance needs to take into account box groups as much as full player groups; otherwise you're only designing for a game that no longer exists. I think it's here that necromancers suffer even more than usual - they just don't offer much at all compared to, basically, any other damage class.
  20. seber Augur

    It just dead class more raid neco stop play ever day ...