Nec/Sk Dot Revamps

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Nekk, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. Vaeeldar Augur

    I'm not pulling out the necro to run a parse. I've reached the point where I simply don't care anymore - it's like a bad job - time to move on.

    Also it is simple math. I never said you dont' cast dots because out of skelly summon you really don't have anything else, I just said there isn't enough time for it to be effective.

    I run a sk, ench, 3 mage group or I run a pal, ench, 3 wiz group now. I encourage you to do your group parse, I also encourage you to run it with a combination of any 2 of the following: mage, wiz, berserker. You'll find a big hit to your dps.

    Also my mage and wiz are not endless mana like the necro but they are pretty damn close. I can run 35-40 minutes before med break. So yeah, what's the point of having limitless mana when you can do that?

    Run your parse if you need to see it but the mechanics of a dot and avg length of a group mob in a high dps group show the pain point very obviously on it's own.
  2. ShadowMan Augur

    I don't claim the world is ending for group necros but I also realize I say that as a raid geared necro who plays at a very high level. So my view on the matter is tainted with raid focus, rk 3 spells, max everything, all the toys from raids and knowing how to maximize that all. But the view for a group geared necro with rk 1 or 2 spells, group focus, no raid toys like bifolds, eye of life and decay or better bp clicks, not fully maxed aa and that doesn't mesh what he has 100% all the time is very different.

    The group game is the entire game for some as they don't raid and its still a big part for raiders for a portion of the year. You can't have one dps class by design perform at 50% the levels of other dps classes unless they have 50 to 60 seconds duration or more on a mob but make that duration only occur when they are not in a full group. If tuning of mobs is set so that they can die in 20 seconds to a real full group then tuning needs to allow for all dps classes to be relative, imo.

    Showing what a necro can do in a bunch of settings when fights are lasting at least 50 to 60 seconds and possibly with 2 mobs being dotted at once is disingenuous. In a group setting with at least 3 other group geared dps classes present and mobs will die in 20 seconds, so a necro gets no real ramp up time. There is a world of difference between doing dps at 100k or more from the start always and eventually doing 100k dps but only after you have had 40 seconds to ramp up. If you look from 40 seconds and on things look fine but prior to that and its a mess. No problem unless suddenly mobs don't last at least that 40 seconds in easy to replicate scenarios, aka grouping in everquest in todays game with other real dps classes present.
  3. Lazipuppy Journeyman

    Though this isn't exactly what I was looking for, I appreciate that you are being more straightforward, this still can be a foundation to move on. From group player's perspective, your dps is high, but number tells nothing by itself, what's more important is how they related to other players in the group. I agree if a wizard is doing 190K and a necro is doing 140K(about 3/4), it's within a reasonable gap. So the next step would be to verify if this statement is true and common(i.e. not under specific situation), if it's true and common, then we can ask if this result(the ratio) can be replicated with group-geared player.
    I can see you're proud about what you are capable, since you've done the hard work, you have all the bragging right, but please let me remind you, using normal pet to tank 2 mobs at the same time is not normal for a group-geared necro( I assume you are saying you use normal pet alone to tank 2.), you have to put away those advantage(at least temporarily) to see the problem from grouper's standpoint.
    I hope I'm reading your parse right, correct me if I get it wrong.
    249140k/38=6556k- those mobs are about 6556K hp each.
    As you stated, in the group you are setting up, you will be doing around 140K and other dps will be around 180K, so a full group: tank, healer, you and other 3 dps, group dps should be about 140K+180K+180K+180K+20K(give tank 20K to round it to 700K)=700K
    6556K/700K=9.4, so if you are doing same kind mobs, each mob are likely to be dead within 10s
    You are saying you will be doing 140K dps in 10s timeframe? I have to admit this is an eye-opener for me.
    I have no doubt about your ability, the real problem is most of your observations is only from raider's perspective, It's probably a bit exaggerate, but I once heard that raid gear is about 2 expansions ahead compare to group gear. It's amazing you can do RoS namer or HA solo, but if I imagine myself doing TBM stuff or using EoK gear to do tds stuff, it become less impressive.

    I'm on TN, have been a while since I last logged on my necro, lazipuppy is my dru, if you happen to be on the same server as me, send me a mail, I'm a bit short at the moment, but I'll try to get a set of conflagrant gear(the most common one for grouper) for you so you can try those and see how far it goes.
  4. MasterMagnus Augur

  5. Coen New Member

    Saw lots asking for parses of group content so here is some from OoW release on Phingel. In these as a necro I'm generally around the warrior in the parse, and about half what the monk is doing. In general most fights are in the 20-30 second range.

    in 7821s, 13041k @1667sdps --- #1 Monk 3906k@499sdps (500dps in 7817s) [29.95%] --- #2 Monk 3227k@413sdps (413dps in 7819s) [24.75%] --- #3 Warrior 2127k@272sdps (278dps in 7641s) [16.31%] --- #4 Necromancer + pets 2003k@256sdps (256dps in 7815s) [15.36%] --- #5 Ranger + pets 934k@119sdps (260dps in 3594s) [7.16%] --- #6 Beastlord + pets 829k@106sdps (193dps in 4300s) [6.36%] --- #7 Cleric 14k@2sdps (5dps in 2604s) [0.11%] --- #8 Shaman 1k@0sdps (0dps in 1246s) [0%] --- #9 Unknown Class 0k@0s ...

    in 10860s, 17195k @1583sdps --- #1 Monk 6466k@595sdps (595dps in 10859s) [37.6%] --- #2 Ranger + pets 3898k@359sdps (363dps in 10734s) [22.67%] --- #3 Necromancer + pets 2865k@264sdps (264dps in 10855s) [16.66%] --- #4 Warrior 2491k@229sdps (281dps in 8849s) [14.49%] --- #5 Beastlord + pets 1013k@93sdps (232dps in 4359s) [5.89%] --- #6 Cleric 462k@43sdps (48dps in 9550s) [2.69%]

    in 3726s, 6923k @1858sdps --- #1 Monk 2321k@623sdps (623dps in 3725s) [33.53%] --- #2 Ranger + pets 1303k@350sdps (350dps in 3726s) [18.83%] --- #3 Warrior 1195k@321sdps (321dps in 3725s) [17.26%] --- #4 Beastlord + pets 1041k@280sdps (280dps in 3725s) [15.04%] --- #5 Necromancer + pets 1033k@277sdps (277dps in 3724s) [14.92%] --- #6 Cleric 29k@8sdp ...

    in 4948s, 7768k @1570sdps --- #1 Monk 2498k@505sdps (555dps in 4499s) [32.15%] --- #2 Ranger + pets 1747k@353sdps (389dps in 4486s) [22.49%] --- #3 Warrior 1259k@254sdps (294dps in 4283s) [16.21%] --- #4 Necromancer + pets 1214k@245sdps (270dps in 4498s) [15.63%] --- #5 Rogue 245k@50sdps (559dps in 439s) [3.16%] --- #6 Rogue 237k@48sdps (538dps in 440s) [3 ...

    in 4795s, 7215k @1505sdps --- #1 Monk 2720k@567sdps (573dps in 4747s) [37.71%] --- #2 Ranger + pets 1696k@354sdps (354dps in 4789s) [23.51%] --- #3 Necromancer + pets 1380k@288sdps (288dps in 4795s) [19.12%] --- #4 Warrior 1286k@268sdps (268dps in 4795s) [17.82%] --- #5 Shaman 93k@19sdps (35dps in 2669s) [1.29%] --- #6 Unknown Class 39k@8sdps (14dps in 2661s) [0.53%] --- #7 C ...
  6. kizant Augur

    You don't fight 1 mob at a time though. If you're tanking 6 and you average killing 1 every 10s then the 6th mob would live for about 1 minute on average.You dot up the mobs starting from the bottom of the agro list because they'll live the longest assuming the MA is going from top to bottom.
    Ibudin likes this.
  7. Vaeeldar Augur

    Lol. how many group geared players do you think can tank multiple mobs regularly? The lack of understanding of the group game in this thread is astounding. I'm sitting on full chase loot, so in between best group gear possible and raid gear in terms of hp/ac. And I wouldn't even begin to pull like that. Burning all my discs I might keep 2-3 mobs in camp active at anytime but even that isn't sustainable.

    Again use reasonable group gear scenarios. Otherwise your just ignoring the facts.
  8. kizant Augur

    I thought we were talking about an exp group. I'm not saying you do this in ST. You work with zones that are doable for you. I'm assuming you've gotten a good amount of RoS gear now from missions or trade skills. Then can't you exp in FM doing sarnaks or something? And from previous posts it sounds like you're boxing? Sure, tanking a lot mobs while boxing 5 characters isn't realistic. That's just being silly.
  9. Sancus Augur

    If you have a full set of chase loot (i.e. EoK raid gear, minus visibles) there's no reason you can't sustain 2-3 mobs in camp in RoS. You should be able to do quite a bit more with a competent healer tbh.

    Now perhaps that isn't reasonable to expect from your average XP group, but those groups aren't going to ST nor do they have top tier DPS leading to super fast fights. In more realistic groups without 3 other DPS players really pushing themselves, most fights take way longer than 10s and Necros can compete more favorably.

    Definitely not saying everything's fine, but I don't really accept this scenario where your group has high enough DPS to kill a mob in 10s but not enough tanking power to tank more than a couple mobs.
    Ibudin likes this.
  10. Vaeeldar Augur

    Ok so I tank 2 mobs with a merc healer with full chase loot - but I sure as hell wouldn't do that regularly unless the pull required it and even then I tend to mez the add just because it's more effeicent. My point is expecting that of regular group is insane.

    As to kizant, yeah EoK is a joke. I actually powerlevel new alts there - in FoM I tank 2 non stop. But they die even faster.

    Sancus any caster group can make a mob die in 20 seconds (I think 10 is ridiculous not sure why that's posted). I do it boxing regularly with either 3 wizzies, ench, and pal or 3mage (sometimes 2 mage and druid) ench, and sk. Those group geared mages aren't exactly gear required so yes they can make mobs die in 20 seconds regularly without breaking a sweat. Hell the 3 wizzies do it all day and that's without me burning twincast spell because it's just a pain in the to click.

    To bring this back around to the core topic. Does anybody actually dispute that a competent group kills mobs in about 20 seconds, even in tier 2 ros? Then from a pure mechanics perspective how can a necro do any real damage? You have 3 tics in there at best. You can't get all 3 dots up for 3 tics which even then would only put you at semi-average dps. You'll likely get 1 tic with all 3, 1 tic with 1 dot, and another tic with 2 dots. The pure mechanics of dot damage make it subpar in the group game. I'm sorry but as soon as the game moved to sub 30-40 second fights (what we use to have) then it killed necros. Swift dots briefly fixed that during HoT but the reality is the damage has not kept up with mob hp.

    Necros can be incredibly powerful chars, argurably the strongest - when given ramp up. Reality is the group game doesn't allow for that.
  11. mmats Augur

    If we are using a scenario where 6 unmezzed mobs are in camp just to favor necros, then we should be comparing them to AEing mages/wizards.
  12. Lazipuppy Journeyman

    Yes, this is what I want to hear(lbudin actually suggested that necro to pull another mob to the camp), The argument really goes nowhere if we keep comparing dps from different basis, bring this forward so people know where the point of argument is.(some people like me keep arguing that from pure game mechanism, there's simply no enough time to do the damage while others keep saying yes it can be done(with multiple pull), now I think at least we can agree that if doing single pull, there's not enough time, and if you are killing multiple mobs at once, necro got better chance to catch up.The problem remaining then will be if this multi-pull is common and can be replicated for group-geared player.(better gears not only give better damage focus, but also better survivability(i.e. more reacting time when things go south) which translate to the ability to push things to the extreme.)

    6 mobs is nearly impossible for group-geared tank , how many dps will necro be doing(compare to other dps in group) for constant 2 mobs pull? I think a discussion from here will be more reasonable.

    I want to apologize to lbudin and some raiders for my previous posts being too offensive, I hope my emotional comments won't prevent you from seeing the problem here.
  13. menown Augur

    I will comment from a raider's perspective in the group game.

    I prefer multiple mobs in camp, when possible, so I can maximize my own DPS. Yes, you want to DoT up the target that will be the last to die. However, picking that target can be a challenge if there are more than 2. Even when I tell the tank which target I am on, there seems to be conflict with another class DPSing my target as well. Very rarely do I see tanks choosing targets from top to bottom on the extended target window. Lots will choose the target that is lowest health, which could be my target next.

    Other times when I want multiple targets in camp, our group may be in a dungeon and the group prefers to "play it safe". This means no Necro Aura, or else an add comes from the AE hitting through the walls. This can happen easily in Howling Stones. You may have 2 in camp, but if you pull more, you could end up having 5 from a dungeon pull. This is also why I prefer pulling for the group, instead of the tank. It allows me to contribute to the group.

    And even other groups I have joined have enchanters that insist that they mez adds. This can easily happen in zones like Skyfire or Veeshan's Peak. Lots of drakes using their Aura will cause the enchanter to AE mez.

    There is definitely a need for group necros to contribute more DPS on single target encounters. Like Kizant has said before, and Sancus will probably agree, a necro will do about half the DPS as a wizard, mage, berserker in group content. But this DPS level is usually what we do with multiple NPCs in camp. When it comes to single target encounters, we are far below that 50%. Lots of group geared players have already picked up on this. The raid geared players don't see it as much because they can usually pull swarms of NPCs continuously in AA grind groups.
    snailish and Ibudin like this.
  14. Hadesborne Augur

    Calling a group, that multi-pulls and multi-tanks allowing a necro to dot everything, normal is quite frankly stupid. It is as if you are saying well, my DPS is great in this one niche group situation. Newsflash, compare that multi-pull/multitank group to an equally geared AE group and see how far ahead they are after 30 mins. You see, even in your "niche" group situation you become severely outclassed by mages/wizards setting up their group they way that benefits them the most.

    You don't seem to understand that by arguing against known facts that have been true since the DAWN of Everquest, you make yourself look like a buffoon. The necromancer class has been behind the eightball in group situations since the beginning.

    The devs have tried to give the class all manner of spells to help alleviate this issue. In the beginning, they gave the necro class the utility to be able to solo all manner of mobs in many situations. Then the devs decided that no class should have that easy of a time soloing and killing loot dropping mobs. So with each expansion they have made it more difficult to solo. With some expansions going so far as to instill a REQUIRED amount of people in the group to experience content. Not very smart.

    Then, the devs decided they needed to actually reduce the time sinks they had originally added in the game because it turns out, people freaking hate sitting around medding. I know, Eureka! So, in an attempt to pacify their needy customers, they add in the massive OOC mana regen. Finally, a great idea from the devs! The problem is that the devs again, didn't think things through with regards to the balance of overall damage over time and class balance. The Necro class was given the lich line because they knew from the onset that their group viability suffered greatly because of the type of damage they did and how much mana would be wasted due to lost dot ticks on dead mobs.

    So now all casters have amazing mana regen. This digs the hole that necros were in as far as group play even deeper. Some people may argue that they have never been kicked out of a group due to low DPS etc etc. But how many groups were they DENIED access to because the group announced they were looking for a DPS class (Wiz, Mage, Rogue, Zerker). the people in this group already know that a necro would be a sub-par addition and as such don't even ask for them or accept them should they ask.

    All of this is fact. It has happened. FOR YEARS!

    I love my necro. I have played him since summer of '99. I have seen him be simply OP as hell, and I have seen him be relegated to mana pumper. I have seen him maintain his raid DPS power incredibly. I have soloed crazy encounters, and pulled off amazing strats to defeat things that they said only groups, or raids could do (first fear break worldwide - 6 necros on Veeshan). I have always known that his contribution in a group setting was always going to be limited when compared to the burst DPS classes and adjusted my play-style and expectations. Watching this gap widen year after year to then point of futility though, is rough and hard to take.

    The necro class is one of the most rewarding classes to play in this game, still to this day. That being said, watching the game move on and changes occur and watching our beloved class get left behind with each change(or lack thereof - I am looking at you 2 year old revamp promise), makes me wonder if I shouldn't just abandon my hope that the devs will treat us with a kind hand and help us out.
  15. Fintank Augur

    I don't think you truly understand how common multi-tanking is. Only way you don't have this is if your group is purposely pulling single mobs for whatever reason or your tank has little to no idea what they're doing. Especially if you have a real healer in the group, multi-pulls always and forever, but it can also be accomplished with a cleric merc.
  16. Brohg Augur

    eh, some players are pretty committed to their single pulling. Those players usually have mobs living long enough for real dots to work, though, so it's somewhat a wash. Less abusing Sphere is sad, though
  17. Lazipuppy Journeyman

    Not necessarily true, even doing single pull, a full group can still bring mob down pretty fast. It's awesome if you are with a good skill tank that constantly bring multiple mobs to the camp and tank them, in that situation you can contribute more, but what if the tank you happen to be with isn't that good? For necro, tank's gear/skill level is an external factor which is not within necro's control. Because some people seem to be confused, I would like to note that, "Necro is not the center of the world". You don't join a group then start telling people what to do, Yes, you can ask politely, but still, people may or may not do what you want. Coordination usually happen After people get more familiar with each other.

    Another way of seeing this problem: Do other dps classes have to limit themselves to certain scenario to do reasonable dps? Can they join a group which is pretty committed to their single pulling and do decent contribution?
  18. Lazipuppy Journeyman

    Because you didn't specify that you are talking about raid-geared, group-geared or overall situation, I would assume you are talking about group-geared tank.

    "Multi-pulls always and forever"(you didn't say tank here, but according to your opinion about multi-tanking, I assume that you also mean tanking here.) Your observation appears to be quite different from mine(most group I was in still do cc), but since it's a fact people can go in game to check(just join general, find those group-geared tank, ask them how they usually do their tanking), I think I'll just leave it here.

    From my experience(mostly from eok era, I assume they still hold true in ros),with proper disc rotation and a player cleric, it's possible for a group-geared tank to do 2-3(maybe some people with better skill can do more, idk). However, I don't think it's fair to blame a tank for our poor dps, people play at different gear/skill level, play in different style, they are fine grouping with every other class, why should they change/risk for necro?
  19. mmats Augur

    I think the point was; if you need 5 unmezzed mobs in camp so that necros can do their best dps, then you should be comparing that to a mage/wiz casting their AE spells in the same scenario.

    You end up with the original problem, which is that necros cant keep up vs group mobs.
  20. kizant Augur

    The problem with comparing to wizard DPS is that you're not supposed to keep up with wizard DPS. Why are we always brought up? You can still pet tank, lifetap, and solo kill some named in RoS. How many times does the tank die but the group manages not to wipe because of a pet class? Plenty. I get that necros are used to being OP and now you're slightly limited and forced to group sometimes but that's not enough reason to start thinking you should do wizard/zerker type DPS.

    Sure, comparing to mages is fair but right now mages are the most broken OP class and you don't balance around the broken classes.

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