I Surrender

Damn, why are people so rude? The guy is frustrated and I can understand that, especially if seems like you hit a brick wall while trying to progess. I know doom and gloom posts suck, but try and lighten up.

It seems that the problem is that 3-boxing just doesn't cut it for this expac. OP stated that this is a 3-box game, I dont think so. I am a casual player and even I 6 box when I play.

Someone posted that they 4 boxed this, maybe OP should consider starting a 4th account.

It's my understanding that group content is intended to by doable by a progressed, well group geared, appropriately constructed given the nature of the event group of non-raiders.

This has not been the case for all non-raid content particularly open zone content like PoWar where one can take on a named mob with more than a 6 player group. Further, there's never been a guarantee that any fixed group of 6 players can beat everything - not even a "well balanced group". (The only exception I'm aware of is "tank parity" - War, Pally, and SK's can all tank all group content [provided a tank is appropriate for the event]. Note that "tank parity" is not War, Pally, SK and Merc and/or pet).

IF you believe you've encountered content that is not beatable under the above conditions I suggest providing feedback.

I've not read a dev statement to that effect. Can anyone produce a quote? Was this a specific configuration class-wise...able to take on every event without alteration to it's makeup?

Hi Decessus,

here a bit motivation and perhaps a hint for your complaints I had and still have my problems with TBM but even with these bugs at moment I begin to like that expansion and I really have (I never thought I would say that without torture) FUN!
Honestly If I would now decide to buy that thing again also for my other accounts, I would do it asap meanwhile after the last patch which lead from a fraudulent alpha status into a kind of playable beta status.

Why?

I quit TDS at Arx Mentis last mission and made a break for nearly 8 months because some parts where horrible hard and it is simly boring to do something over and over again only to get into another part of that expansion. That is not an option which makes fun (which a game should do). Partly I beat it with help of others but honestly it is a kind of goal to also get it done with a boxed group. Why? Not because you don't find people, because it is simply boring after 10+ years to play only one character esp. if you are more the strategic and not the tactical player. If not boxing I would have stopped EQ a long time ago. I never had a crush with Doom, Counterstrike and so on and I doubt I will. And with the instances as a boxer you don't disturb other players if something goes really wrong and you keep your camp without annoying people who only wait to steal your mob if you get a wipe. Besides Daybreak earns good money with me as a customer as long as I can afford to waste time and money in EQ or until the next break when they break important parts of the game.

TBM gave all RK.II Spells as a boxer which surprised me. I gave up in TDS to do over and over again this over-hard named which could only be beaten in my current "group gear" condition as a 6-Boxer with 6 mercs. After playing a Mage up to 105 only for that expansion I had a tank which had a chance fighting against these ubah mobs. With my normal Warrior it was horrible difficult to hold him alive even with two healers.

But the main reason was simply one thing: you cannot play 3+ characters to fully extent like you can with a single character so easy. To play the "high end stuff" for group geared players (missions) you need to use all the features of the characters and as a boxer you mostly do not. That means you have to know all releveant AA-Skills and all relevant special features which makes the hell difference between real clerics/tanks and merc clerics/tanks. These differences are SO FUNDAMENTAL that it is nearly impossible to use mercs (at my condition). All mercs are geared to the top but they lack perhaps necessary AAs which are only present to 50% in my group.

Meanwhile my chars are at 105 with about 9000-15600AA. The Warriors is maxed with 12500 AA and the hotbutton bars are optimizied like hell to get the maximum out of him. The REAL cleric has his special features always active for him and only THIS combination or the Mage-Cleric or Mage-MercHealer-Combination (with, you know it: special AA/specials from Mage with getting some hits without loosing HP) kept the Mage pet alive in TDS. All in all: if you are not using the minimum features of a real character but a merc I am afraid you don't stand any chance to make the expansion after the 2nd-Level Hero quests.

My setup at moment is:
Druid, Cleric, Warrior, Mage, Beastlord, Enchanter.
but sometimes the Rogue (with only 9kAA) replaces Warrior, Beastlord or Mage and for the collectibles he is the only useful choice at moment for me. The most important is Healer, Tank, Crowdcontrol/Slower and Transport/Utility. DPS is fills the empty spots. I know it can be faster/better but I will play every class and that is what makes the fun out of it.

With that combination (without any merc) in TBM it is possible so far to do:

- ALL mercenary tasks
- ALL partisan tasks
- ALL named in the normal zones and many in the instanced zones

The only exception so far was Arsin the Blaze which is highly overpowered if you don't have a full group of real players and ubah equipment. But if I would use SC buyable instant mana potions then I would have another load of mana and perhaps could get the last 43% of his life but to buy SC to make it is not an option for me. I also didn't used the AA-Boost to go from about 80-90k up to 142k max DPS which could lead to success in killing this critter. That is for me at moment the only strat after testing so many tricks to beat that baddy. To compensate the mana DoT I also forgot to use mages mana sticks because I never in 10 years really needed it (sorry mages). But TBM seems the first expansion in group content where I have to summon those sticks). Tributes or Guild tributes are also something I don't use for ages and it seems I have to pull them out of the pocket. My group also avoids these Purity augs normally because they empty fast and it is no fun to think about that too. I was happy to avoid casting always these item buffs - that patch with item AA was worth gold. Adding all these to the group will boost a bit more. So there are plenty of tactics which I have missed so far and could lead to success even on something like Arsin the Blaze but for somebody who is not maxed with AA this mob is in my opinion clearly overpowered and rebalancing on next patch is useful to give others with less AA a chance.

At Hero 2nd, the tasks get horrible because crowd control does not work anymore, tanks cannot stand even with two healers the many mobs which want to kill you. It is purely DPS and I have to say that the groups DPS reaches about 142k with AA activated but to kill 12+ mobs and the last one is a named which has abilites like Arsin the Blaze I would describe it as very "inbalanced" and I agree on these parts with Decessus. Perhaps it is not impossible but at moment I personally waste time with all other Heros-1-tasks and after that I will try all the Hero-2nd-Missions and hopefully will have some fun in Plane of Hate on the group material and get decent upgrades to be able to try the T2/T3 again.

You have lots and lots of things to do in TBM and you get the most gear up to Tier 2 with a normal setup also as a boxer. In going through that progression (without Heros 2nd+) the whole group got extreme upgrades to TDS in gear and yes, some is very bad (chest/legs for melees) but others do compensate after the last patch. The rogue got excellent piercers with higher Backstab (stabbing sometimes 20k/35k/491k with BS+71 -> nearly raid at 72+ without AA) with TBM, the Beastlord got two 2H2 with better ratio (even Aug5 is not working), the warrior got a sword with much better ratio (T2) and a DREAM of Shield of Dreams (even this is only temporary upto the next patch) while Druid/Cleric got a much better weapon with group healing abilities.

The earrings T2 are much better with the right combination and not every stat is really THAT useful if that drops a bit - your characters will have more specialist features after that change and it makes the whole group much stronger - and remember, I am talking about PURE group gear and boxing and no single raid equipment!!. After using Gameparse it seems some stats are overrated which dropped in TBM compared to TDS.

New spells are not all very usable, I have the problem that space with hotbuttons AND spell slots are to low and other spells are much more important at the boxer. But the Dichotomic Spell for the Druid gives him a Mega 305k nukes which exceeds nearly the DOUBLE of his old spells (even with horrible cost of mana - the first time for a very long time that I am not always at 100% even with nuking/healing all the time).

The Mage meanwhile can pet tank and the whole group can attack a mob without getting aggro. This has changed after the last TBM-patches and that is really cool. The whole boxing crew has Augs/Weapons which proc group healing stuff. The REAL cleric uses always as start spells which give healing on every punch from every group member or pet and that is essential to be able to easily tank even the most named so far (with one exception).

The Cleric got much new gear (esp. T2) and his RK.II-Spells which sucked farming in TDS.

All the mobs and the tasks give a good amount of AA, nearly 1 AA-Ding per KILL sounds from the speakers (from somebody of the crew), that is about 100-150AA, partly 200AA for each character in a whole evening with lesson and Enchanters Learner Aura. That might not be so much for the ubah people but my Druid has about 15600AA and begins soon to waste it on glyphs, and warrior is maxed. THAT was really cool on TBM at the start, meanwhile it went a bit lower but double xp is around again so it will stay a bit tuned in that area.

The Demiplane Zone is meanwhile really fun and this zone is nicely made. The Crypts are meanwhile not only a challenge to death but a challenge which is possible to do in boxing with either group combination even after having done all partisan/merc and lesser spirit and expected to get rid of that zone-wide debuff (which may be another bug because it is still there). But plan your outlet of your hotbuttons and your auto keyboard wisely to avoid restrains in your wrist or use 3rd party software which does not count as cheat by the rules and help for keys or autofollow (like a auto keyboard, gameparse, gina...). Prepare and think for the strategy, analyze the weakness of the mobs and go even through your old neverused spells or rarely used AA to find an idea for advantage. And make it a habit to simulate it on your keyboard before really doing the critical mob to get accustomed to the switching of the characters or the many keyboards (if you have more than one). If you can make boxing with keyboard, nearly without mouse and without the need to really look much on the screen then you have the flow to get all chars running smoothly (for me that is like an art, an art of war or an virtual martial art).

If you have a rogue then you have ALL options for using him to the advantage of the whole crew. SOS is working nearly everywhere, even in Crypt of Decay you can run over traps and your SOS does not fail (but you need the AA, don't think about stumbling around with a poor AA condition!!!). With the rogue I can collect the collectibles for the whole group. Some are not collectible because mobs are standing right on it. In that case you drag the whole group there or hope that some of them respawn random in other places.

Every part of the (if you want to call it) expansion has his odds and you have to work it through with tricks and abilities I normally never used as a boxer. The advantage is if you a sturdy enough that you learn how to play every single character with all his AA features - and I needed quite a bit time to find out how that stupid warrior woman stops wiping her face at the floor in front of a named in TDS - you can play them easily in the most difficult situation. Meanwhile she is able to tank nearly every mob like the mage pet, perhaps not so easy but it works. BUT: REAL cleric with 12,5kAA and the necessary proc-healing features are duty - without them - no chance (if somebody has other experience feel free to describe the trick - I never found them). Mercs are unreliable, have only a fracture of the abilities, DI from Cleric and Proc healing abilities are not present and their pathing is so terrible that it kills the group in a cave fast and the caster mercs are mostly standing at a mobs toe while nuking and waiting 5min to get the killed caster merc back sucks really - mercs are two expansions behind in strength or ability and I don't waste time anymore on them except perhaps as a healer for the mage pet or rarely as a bit more DPS-Boost as long as they don't get decent upgrade options or a better pathing and fighting logic. But I did the Crypt of Decay at the start with partly 2 healer mercs in a group because the pathing is so odd and the lords if not attacked directly on the spot with crowd control help to mezz the 1-2 adds kill you fast. If the two healer mercs have different strategies for healing then it worked much better than having both on "reactive". DPS may be much lower but DPS is not the fun. To be successful in something without endless rebuffing after wipes is worth more then sawing through mobs like a lightning.

If things go very bad then I had the case that the cleric and the druid spammed healing throughout a named fight. That works but without strategy this is the worst kind of play (e.g. Glorious Celestina, emptied my cleric to 2% mana but group did it). After that I analyzed that named and after that with dispell of here stupid buff and a complete group melee including the heal-proc-strategy this named was only a little bit harder than trash. You need the right strat if you play the high end group stuff or you get creamed

And what is very good are the many many augments which you can get. One named drops a shield aug (AC60) which I was highly suprised and every group member with shield carries it meanwhile. New weapon augs make the rogue more deadly in backstab. AC40/HP/m/e285-Augs in every area for every character have raised the group stats significantly. That is really a plus in TBM even some are not working in some slots but after last patch this is only the range/charm/weapon slot. And if you really need the augment slot filled, go back to GoD and get that incredible flexible GoD-Aug (endless quest, but HP200 for nearly EVERY AUGSLOT). Enough time to play and preparate for the next patch - perhaps you can do it more than once and use the L13 one too - but never tried it.

If your toons lack on additional AAs like the DoN ones or the ones you get after completing parts of all the last expansions then perhaps this all also counts a little bit to more weakness in the boxed group. I always did one thing: if stuff is too hard I tried to get my group stronger in completing old content to get these special AA features - it is an endless game with that. But to run through Underfoot was quite fun too

So instead of only seeing the disappointing and in some parts horrible bugs I would suggest getting all out of the current system to prepare when the third patch corrects all bugs but also use the bugs which gives you advantages which could be soon nerfed like:

- CoD-collectibles respawning
- Shield of Dreams with 6k+ HP and 464 AC
- many many rotting stuff because the most people have the basic gear meanwhile (all Crypt-Armor except legs are always rotting and now also the T2 weapons will rot in my group)
- easy droppable RK.II-Spells
- non_lore weapons for mnk/bst/rog and earrings (hopefully that does not get a nerf)

If you have been fast enough then you had the chance to sell the new ornaments for horrible high prices and the millions I have earned are enough to support the whole group and the alts with their spells, gear and the tradeskill components - yes, that is also in TBM, I found now the Seller of Salvaged Souls - a bit disappointing because I don't need ornaments really but it is there. And I personally love to play every character class and return after having played all the playable TBM parts to the old quests with my newbies because experiencing the old raid zones where I had never the chance to get a grip on as a casual or group player is hell of fun. GoD was horror for some at the start, now it is really cool, like Vex Thal, Anguish and all which came after them. And some these zones give you augments which I even use today (Shawl-Aug-Quest in UF -> +300 in all Tradeskills, GoD-Aug).

So what do you have on TBM in summary?

- Entry tasks to get access into TBM
- some useful new spells (which could evolve after patch but I don't mind at moment)
- in some parts really cool group upgrades (as long as you are not ubah)
- easy AA/Exp
- progression of about 6-8 steps in every of the 4 zones after the entry to get currency (20-30 tasks) to equip T2-Gear.
- 5 T1-Missions (which nearly all are boxable)
- weapons with better ratio throughout the characters (and future upgrade option via heroe-stat-augs)
- many nice augments (meanwhile more rare drops but still available)
- easy to get collectibles with SOS and partly INVU/INVIS (and therefore 11AA per achievement)
- really tricky and strategically challenging encounters (I don't speak about some mission which are out of line/balance)
- a raid zone which is possible to group step by step onces every 8 days as an instance for 6h
- some twink stuff for the lowbies at 75+

What do you get perhaps in the future?

- additionally 10 Missions (T2/T3) after a balance correction via patch
- perhaps another raid zone for group geared players if I find a trick no to get killed in PoFear2 when zoning in or perhaps after a balance correction via patch for group players
- new charms/range/weapons/bows/shields and new/working augslots after a working patch
- perhaps the other named after a balancing patch or some new strat ideas (ZAM is really lame at moment, to pay for that site because of TBM is a waste of money)
- perhaps an ominous potion which deletes the zone-wide debuffs in the crypts (perhaps useful for the T2/T3-Heroes Missions)
- perhaps an ominous seller of missing Augments for weapons/charms/bows/shields which is only appearing on full moon in the prim number year of the Innoruuk (or call it next patch)

If you cannot do it, what are the options?

- ask others for a TA up to T3-Missions
- pay others for a TA up to T3-Missions
- join others for a TA up to T3-Missions

If ONE single char has all missions then you can choose for your boxing crew the one which is possible to box instead having the need to make the progression step by step for every box member.

I wanted to vomit after the alpha release and I even was bored because of lack of information in the real beta test (which didn't had any use as a bug correction, most bugs went into release). But meanwhile after getting used to and after the last patch TBM is a "nice-to-have" if you are not at the edge of your purse.

Enough ideas and reasons for TBM?

my two cents....

Maybe 3 PLAYERS and their mercs, just maybe? I'm not saying this is the case with you but most people who box are not on the same level as people playing individual characters.

P.S.: what is your character makeup if you box with 3 mercs? What classes, which combination?

And if others think T2/T3 group missions are so easy then I would like to know if these players are running around in raid gear or trying it with mercs in group gear - that makes a big difference. And Arsin is sucking mana so fast and he is in an instance so the trick to kill him with a whole flottila of mercs and players does not work - only 6 players allowed

Some TBM content is easy....
And some group missions like "Damsel of Decay" are way overtuned for groupers.
On Cazic - full groups of 6 are struggling with it.
People from Freelance and Exiled (top raiders on Cazic) can beat it - but not every time, and only by using raid tactics and strats.
I can't see where a gaggle of group geared friends has a prayer in hell against that and her Bokon bastiches. I see no way a normal boxer can beat it.
-Rat

I 4 box MAGE ~~ SHM ~~ CHANTER ~ DRUID ( no third party software ) same computer , same screen.
I usually don't have any problem killing them .
I need to burn with all toons tho, and casting chanter and druid dps booster aa's...they dying very fast.

if I run out of mana on all toons I am using my SHM aa spiritual channeling and focusing on healing with several aa to boost / crit , heals.

====================================================================

If you have 1 tank for Damsel and 1 for the Bokon / Oozes, the rest is just details. When she hits 33% just be ready to manage the disease debuff ... if you're still going for close to two minutes after that then each person just needs to take the time to cycle through the disease debuff before the 2 minute timer ends and you get another 2 minutes of play time.

It's not a hard mission, people just gotta do their thing.

Render is a first rate a-hole to be sure, but very doable. Sounds like you need to make some good macros and burn hotkeys. I'm sure there are a ton of people who would help you with this.

What you are doing is boxing, not "grouping". I myself box 3, and there is a sharp difference between 3-boxing and three real people. Unlike what some are saying, I think this expansion is made for real groups, not soloers and boxers.

I finished the expansion by grouping with my guildmates, and I seriously doubt that even I, a raid geared tank, will be able to get my boxes thru missions like Anashti Decay. I am sure there are some uber boxers who can, but I think that would be pretty rare.

Please show me someone who can box this mission and I'll petition for a God of Everquest title for them.

Seriously, Anashti Sul is wicked and requires real PCs at the top of their game. I've been lucky enough to be allowed a spot a couple of times in awesome groups and it's still a struggle.

But you have now given me reason enough to try it, LOL.

Boxing Decay mission is more than likely impossible right now with all the mechanics that go on. However, getting a real group of PCs that know what they're doing and it's (really) easy.

The only thing to really worry about is having the healer accidentally heal the MT onto Withering Physicality. But that's why you make people do their own curing.

However, this is from a raid geared perspective. A group with group-geared players would have a lot more trouble.

It also depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Do you want the 3 for 1 achievement with the bokons? If so, you'll need a class to have non damage aggro - any 3 tank archtypes or enchanter is the best. One tank will need to take glob and Anashti while the other locks down the 3 bokons at the beginning. After that, bokons are really easy to manage.

If you want the pet charm one, I haven't seen any other pets work besides SK/necro, but I could be wrong. I know I've see it attempted with enchanter and mage pet and those didn't work. Not sure about the druid/sham pets.

If you want the curing achievement, just don't cure the DoT if the player has the heal. They'll be taking a little damage for a bit, but it's something a cleric can heal through easy enough.

On first port down at 55%, just burn her. At 35%, have everyone manage their own cures. Certain classes will want certain debuffs on for maximum time before needing to recycle. IE a warrior tanking can go on for 4 minutes before needing to recycle the debuffs if done right. And by that time, Anashti should be dead. With a raid geared group, she'll be dead on her first port down, but for groupers I'm assuming you'll need to kill her after her port back upstairs to finish her off.

I just came back around a year ago, after skipping a couple of expansions. I was seeing this in most of the heroic adventure descriptions on Allah's, so I assumed this was normal now:

- Tuned for 2-3 players and their mercenaries

^This. /thread.

I'm a big boxer myself and try and push through as much as possible but... it's completely delusional when boxers come on here and complain about difficulty (esp. if they're using a tank merc or cleric merc), acting like they should be able to do the *exact* same as a group with even one extra real person. I get frustrated when I can't push all my alts through stuff and realize they will probably never "finish" the expansion but they're alts/boxes... can't really be upset. It's an unrealistic expectation.

Also... unless you're after Hunter there is 0 reason to kill any named in this expansion more than once as you can get better items from the HA chests (exception being maybe the EM earring in Sul but that guy is easy). Someone in zone *always* is doing hunter and would help you for 30 seconds if you need it, I'm sure.

Having boxed all merc/part (minus the "raid mission" copies)/hunter/collection/etc with a tank merc I have to agree that it's pretty easy overall.

I think Seraphina in the CoDecay mission is the only one who gave my box group mass casualties because I wasn't ready for the mana drain DOT. They kindof went overkill with those and should have added some stupidly annoying way to drop it/avoid...

TL;DR: It's not too hard (borders on too easy in most cases). Having the same expectations to complete content as a BOX group vs a real group is... unrealistic.

Again, can anyone provide a quote where a DBG employee said that?

Allah != DBG. This may have been an observation (Gribble HA's were notoriously easy) rather than reporting something a dev stated was an intended feature of the expansion. In fact there was a fair amount of non-raider teeth gnashing over what was to their minds overly difficult TDS content.

Further, not every expansion is as easy as the preceding one - especially if an expansion allowed players to catch up and take on new challenges when additional content was released.

An interesting thought, but can anyone provide a quote where a dev said all group content should be beatable by 3 players and their mercs?

Afaik the "guarantee" (as much as one exists) is that all group content is to be beatable by a well constructed group (which could vary in makeup depending on the encounter) of progressed, geared up, well played non-raiders.

Having said that I can understand how someone who had been beating previous content with something else might be upset should they encounter content they can't beat with their usual group.

(I was kind of annoyed when I could no longer solo Gribble HA's with my poorly geared Ranger alt).

BUT it's a multi-player game with inter dependancies, strengths and weaknesses. Someone might not like it, but its entirely valid for one encounter to practically require a tracker, a mezzer, a lot of melee, ranged, or cold damage, 2 MT's or no MT's, etc.

Shaman, Mage, Necro, plus 3 mercs is not necessarily the magic key to success versus every encounter. Some might require a well constructed group of progressed, geared up, and well played 6 non-raiders that was designed to beat a specific encounter.

It might be inconvenient but it's reasonable challenge and DBG needn't apologize or revise content that's loseable by significantly sub-optimal groups.

You had me at "three mercs" and "boxing".

I think that was the first Battleaxe post that didn't make me want to smash my face in a wall.

No big deal. I have always been able to box my way through expansions, make it to the final tiers, and farm the named for all the gear I needed, and now I cannot.
I don't mind hard. Hard can be really fun! Wiping a few times trying to figure out a workable strat is totally acceptable, what would the game be like if it was easy? I guess i'm mostly disappointed in myself for no longer being able to do this, and for incorrectly assuming that the game is now designed in a way that welcomes unconventional groups and/or box groups. I have a hard time taking math tests, while some people can breeze right through them. Does that mean that Algebra is easy? Would that be the common description of Algebra, that it's easy? A select few people with narrow minds who have a nack for it would say sure it is. Most would not. I have friends that are in the same boat as me, and they're stuck where I am, so i'm not alone. Again, it's not like I tried an event, had a group wipe, and started saying it's too hard. I don't think I said the word hard once. I said impossible, or at least eluded to that fact, and that's different.
No biggie. I'll just wait to see if it gets tuned to be more box friendly, wait until next expansion (if there's anyone left by then), or move on.

And for the guy above, who said he'd drive his car anyways without power steering, umm no you would not. If your steering is "going" out, you might be able to turn a little and make it around town. But if it's totally gone, the car is undriveable, which was the reason for my obviously failed analagy .

Just curious. You said "I have friends that are in the same boat as me, and they're stuck where I am, so i'm not alone". Why don't y'all get together and get each other thru the maybe 3-4 group missions in the expansion that are not box-friendly?

I mean, some missions are just not meant to be boxed. My alts didn't have that one ToR mission done for like a year and a half after it came out.

It's up to you. You could make common cause with friends that are in the same boat as you are and are stuck where you are stuck. Or you could complain that the wieght is too heavy for you to lift alone and quit.

EQ is a 6 player group game with mercs filling in so players can do less than the most challenging content until live players become available. Sometimes a boxed team of 3 characters and 3 mercs can beat a given event and sometimes they can not.