Either they are a tank class or a DPS class. Choose: 1. DPS classes: Can tank some, but not all group content. Do more DPS than tanks. 2. Tank classes: Can tank all content. Can't DPS as well as DPS classes. 3. Both archetypes should be able to tank all content and DPS interchangeably.
They are hp% based. They are also mezzable and stunnable. Neither the captains nor their adds hit hard. The red con trash mobs at the very end of the last HA mission are by far the hardest things in there. But they should not be a problem for a 10k aa tank that doesn't suck and has some healing.
Lol too funny. If my pet could tank content with melee in range EVERY Warrior would be up in arms and be threatening to retire and cancel subs. You know this is true. I am unsure why you even bring up such a topic in this thread. Our regular pets do less DPS then you do, and even worse when tanking. Which is what your asking for, to do the DPS of the tank. Your not going to be granted Magician or Necromancer levels of DPS, it is silly to assume you would. Because for Necromancers their tank does pretty much no DPS compared to their DoTs, and a Magician pet (not swarms) is 15-20% of our total DPS max. Your class is designed to take hits, my class (necros also) are designed to do DMG while being solo friendly. AFAIK all 3 classes fulfill those roles that I just described. This horse would really like to die now I would imagine.....
Ummm ... no they are not. I still go back dumpster diving in t4 VoA for augments for my alts from time to time. On both the SK and the Warrior, trash in VoA is exponentially easier than trash in the HAs. This isn't to say that trash in HAs are difficult, mind you ... but they are appropriately more difficult than tier4 VoA.
Pie, the one issue I have with pets (and I don't have many) and tanking is that they really are fire and forget for the most part, freeing up the Mage or Necro to continue on ... business as usual. The amount of total damage output the mage gives up in pet tanking is simply the difference in damage output from the pets themselves. My mage has about 9k aa's right now ... it really is that easy. A more balanced approach would have been for the pet to function as a rock solid tank with more active input from the pet owner - which is presently just not necessary. There have been times on a named pull I'd forgotten to hit Virulent, Burnout AA, and Fortify companion altogether - pet never got close to dying once even with these "fire and forget" buffs that don't really translate to active input. I know that those abilities don't all confer survivability, but they are the 3 buffs I make sure to pop up before a trophy kill or tight spot. I don't need any of the other pet related abilities ... because the pet is sturdy enough that they aren't necessary. Gonna make up some numbers (make believe) to demonstrate this point. Lets assume Mage dps (with gargoyle): 20,000dps Water pet: 8000dps Fire pet: 8000dps Earth pet: 4000dps Under the current scenario, this theoretical mage puts out 28000 dps with their non tanking pet up. Swapping to an earth pet, that dps output only drops to 24000 dps under current mechanics. I can see the gripe that some tanks have in this scenario as the mage is now effectively filling 1 critical group role (tank) as well as doing a damn good job at the classes archetypal role: dps. This opens up a caster group to pile in more dps/heals/utility as you no longer need a tank. How is this fair to the tank that puts out 10-12k dps but only fills one of those roles? Especially in light of the fact that (lets be honest) the mage pet tanks circles around them in easily controlled environments? It's not like that tank can manage to do his job and pull comparable damage. A mage with appropriate EM brings more total power to a caster-only group than any single other player type can. I also have a near capped out Necro with EM15. While not as sturdy as the mage pets, it still out-tanks most tanks vs single targets with minimal input. Let's make up some more numbers (make believe) to demonstrate how it could have been set up better. Lets assume: Mage dps (with gargoyle): 20,000dps Water pet: 8000dps Fire pet: 8000dps Earth pet: 4000dps Let's also assume: Mage pet, to do its job well, requires much more active input from the magician. Now instead of still rolling normal dps lineups as usual the mage and his garg pets only crank out 10k dps as half that mage's time is now being more focused on one of the critical roles of the group: providing a functional tank. Now you're looking at mage who puts out 28k sustained dps while filling a dps role, and 14k dps while covering tank related duties. This is more how it should have been from the start, but it's too late to change it now. I'll recap with this: mage pets and necro tanks should be able to handle all group content ... but I can completely understand the frustration of tanks who watch a dps class basically replace their job (and in many cases do it better), while still putting out the kind of dps you expect from a raw dps character. That's not fair ... but as we all know, life ain't fair. ~Peace
Just snipped your post, it is entirely too long to requote imho. This is in response to the entire post though. I am fully aware of the struggles of group tanks and have provided some ideas in various threads to try and alleviate that stress. They are out there, SOE needs to simply do something about the problem. Attacking Magicians does nothing but lose Tanks allies really. We get attacked enough by Tanks for other reasons aside from this. As the the Magician things, its not entirely fire and forget. If you pull 1 mob every 3 minutes well sure it is. Just like how it would be for a tank if you pulled one mob every 3 min, they would hit their aggro tools and be done. As to the caster group what happens if the pull turns into 3 mobs and the mages are Raining? Well that first mob is locked down but the other 2 just killed the mages, and are killing your healer now as well. A very key issue that NEVER gets brought up in pet tanking threads the inability for pets to gain snap aggro and or AE aggro. IE: if there is a random add the player in the group is tanking it for at least 10 to 20 seconds. Now if the Mages are not raining they are adding 3k+ mana per weave (before mana pres and such, merely just a base example) over rains and are doing quite a bit less DPS. Meaning their 20-30min sustain is now around 8-15min sustain, meaning more med time. Is that Mage going to continue to tank while it has no mana to DPS? Well no because pets are really quite awful at DPS with nothing going in terms of DPS enhancements. I am unsure what gear level tanks you are talking about, but raid tanks put out more then 10-12k in a group setting while tanking. Fairly certain with just a bard during VoA (2 expansions ago) tanks were doing like 20-25k sustained for 3000+ seconds. Which at the time was ahead of Magicians because of mana limitations. Some Warrior posted the parse on the old forums, it was somewhere around those numbers. Like I said it is a group tank issue, raid tanks do not suffer at all in group content afaik. Blaming other classes for that seems a bit silly to me. Should be taking this to Aristo and Elidroth to get things changed around for the younger tanks out there.
Alright Daegun you caught me stretchin the truth alittle. I must suck though I struggle to put out 25k dps sustained. Infact I cannot sustain 25k at all. I can sustain tops 15k with a 2hander/bard and thats across afew hour session (IE: not 110% focused, but still ample attention) I could see maybe 18k consistently in group gear, but id really have to be on my sh**. Also you did a good job Pie pointing out the elephant in the room with pet tanking... Snap Aggro and AE situations, they come up. The ability to quickly pickup an add or two can change a wipe to a win or a win to a wipe. Personally Id rather have a group tank and really push the limits of the 5 other people in the group, but thats just me, not everyone wants to play like that. O well, I Don't think that warrants a complete rework of the tank classes, because some sallies are mad the unofficial 4th tank class can tank the same content we can.
Trying to think of something really profound to post, but this thread is just stupid. Anyway, a player tank, be it merc, group or raid works every time in any group make up (ok maybe the merc tank is a stretch), unless the player tank has not done their homework or the cleric sucks or whatever. A bad tank is just that: Bad. Gear and AA won't fix the inability to learn. Yes, whining has become what has replaced ambition to get people anywhere it seems, but maybe try doing what others have figured out before: Learn your class and enjoy it. The rest will come easy after. That goes for any class. The group is only as strong as the weakest toon. If people want to talk about pet groups or caster groups with a pet tanking, than you are talking about a niche. Niche being something a few classes in concert or solo that can be done as their own means of distinguishing themselves, since there still are classes and we want them to distinguish themselves. Yes, necro and mage together is powerful, but not everyone plays necros and mages. With all the BS necros and mages have to endure from the endless stream of sour grapes, it is amazing anyone plays those classes at all nor why would they still be welcoming of others when so many work so hard to knock them down. Anyway, if we just want to go back to being realistic...If melee want to group, than sorry, we need a pally/sk/warrior or a cruddy merc. Berserkers do disgusting amounts of damage, but do zero with a pet tanking. Same for monks and even the lowly rogue. Maybe this isn't Meleequest anymore but its not quite Casterquest either. Real groups with a pet tanking just don't work and won't work until everyone roles robe classes. If that happens, than just unplug the servers and smash them in the SoE parking lot "Office Space" style.
This was pre-melee nerf. Those numbers are no longer seen. It was mostly due to Aria from bards providing too much DPS, but there were a few other adjustments. I don't think you will be seeing those numbers again from a tank this expansion at least.
Trim away the misstatements, alibis, and accusations (in this thread there would be very little left) and the is some truth to the thesis. Oh, as far as I know group geared tanks can tank all of group content or so close to all the difference doesn't really matter. And group geared tanks have access to the Rank II goodies, the AA's, the augs, and some VERY sweet items. However, they are gear dependent in ways a Mage pet (sorry for using that example Pie, but it hangs there like ripe fruit) never dreamed of being. Every group named is like a raid named is to a raid tank. Not always easy peasy. One improvement that would help is to increase the quality of group dropped shields. For a group geared tank a good shield nicely augged ought to be a very significant piece of gear. Another is to boost the healing provided by the vendor purchasable potions, runes, heal procs, and lifetaps. There have to be better numbers than "Did this do anything? I heard me drink it..." that eases things in the group game without upsetting things in the raid game. Some of these things don't even make up for half of a hit by a mob at Orc 1. I'm convinced the best thing a group-geared tank can do is to join a guild. To have others help them improve so they can in turn help guildmates. But SOE can still remove some of the sharp corners.
I don't know how to fix group tanks as I don't view them as being broken. Maybe more uninterrupted(instocast) taps/heals would help some. Perhaps longer mitigation disciplines. The thing is, people are going about this by putting a mage pet in the crosshairs which is wrong. That suggests nerfing one class to elevate another, which is stupid and unnecessary. Just because a pet can do, under certain situations, what a player tank can, doesn't mean that a pet usurps a real tank. Maybe an enhanced minion earring is "easy" to get along with just buying a pet summoning spell but it just isn't that simple. Getting a pet to be burly takes a bunch of AA's. Thousands. Before you break out the strawman that "well mages can beam kite". Not all mages do that crap and it isn't as godly exp as people take it to be. This thread is just another counter productive class envy thread. It should by all rights be locked and gone.
Pie, My intent is not nor has it ever been to make this about pets tanking. My replies are more along the lines of keeping some vocal mages honest in their replies. I don't want to attack magicians. I have one and I enjoy playing it, I don't want to see pets further downgraded ... but that doesn't make this less of an issue. It is a competitive issue and from a tank perspective, it does suck to see the pet of a naked (other than appropriate EM focus) mage with under 1000aa tank single mobs more effectively than a max aa, fully group geared level 100 tank. That mage might not do it's primary job as a mage well with so little gear and aa, but the pet of that mage can completely replace a tank for almost all content. The only saving grace in all of this is the very real issue of a mage pet tanking excluding melee dps. Because of this issue - I don't see changing mage pets further to be either ideal or necessary. Devil's advocate here: You have pointed out that tanks to ask for mage/necro level dps is ridiculous ... but how is that more ridiculous than a mage/necro having mage/necro level dps while still being able to field a tank that's better than a tank? As for the specific points you brought up: -What level of tanks am I talking about? Group geared tanks - entirely group geared - which will be far below what a raid geared tank can put out. Group gear weapon ratios suck donkey nuts by comparison. I've got a capped out SK (gear and aa) and a warrior with mid 5000's aa - both with t1 cotf weaponry and appropriate augments/focus. With modest support (standard buffs and a bard for overhaste), I can generally expect 8-11k dps on my warrior and 10-14k dps on my sk not counting in mage damage shields etc. If I wanted to burn harder on my sk, I could raise that potentially by a bit. With more current raid weaponry, I don't doubt that the warrior and sk could push closer to the ~20k mark or potentially higher. So, playing my warrior I can see that frustration easily. The earth pet will out-tank me on singles as well as standing up to multiple pulls without blinking an eye, it does close to have my damage output by itself, and has a mage behind it that is more than doubling my damage contribution even with that earth pet tanking while at the same time opening up another slot in the group for a dps merc, second healer, another player with ranged capabilities etc. -Fire and forget? Yes. It is really fire and forget. If I'm using my mage as the tank for a HA group, I pull with that mage, tank with the mages pet etc. Aggro isn't very difficult, everyone assists mage for primary target and gargoyles are sent out to both add dps, build agro on primary mob and then it's a simple tab through the mobs and let the pet whack it a few times, occasionally sicking a new garg on other mobs. Even without cc, slows, debuffs - single cleric merc keeps the pet up without difficulty on 3 white con heroic mobs and isn't at any risk really of that merc ganking aggro. As long as nobody else is being stupid, nobody should be getting aggro either and peeling them off the pet. For those multiples, I just hold off on rains either entirely or early on and toss out fickle/spear etc. Less mana efficient, but mana isn't really ever a problem. With single pulls, there is no need to change anything. With multiple pulls, you just have to know how and who to assist and not be stupid. In heroics, I've spent a large amount of time pulling with my mage who fields the pet tank. I don't bother to split anything, I just bring them back to camp 2-3 at a time. All in all, I agree with you Pie. This is a group tank issue. The problem is not and has never been evil pet classes. I personally feel the tanking ability of the pets are fine for all the reasons both you and I brought up. The forever icing on that balance cake is the fact that melee's can't do their job with a pet tanking - it keeps things balanced. The only thing I could offer up to balance things potentially better (and it won't ever happen) would be for mages to have to literally give up some of their damage capabilities while having their pet tank - preferably through requiring more active upkeep of that pet thus leaving less time to twist in damage weaves. If a tank is expected to focus attention on mitigation, using discs, etc to get the job done in more difficult content, the owner of a pet with standard buffs should have to likewise dedicate attention to the survivability of their pet that's tanking. Like I said though, that isn't going to happen. Bleh ... this is getting off topic. My group geared tanks (I have experience with 2 of 3 tanking classes) have zero problems in current group content. It would be nice to see some further improvements in terms of passive mitigation and damage output, but I do not have any problems. I'll very strongly assert that any tank who IS having problems is not having those problems because the classes are inadequate - that's a player issue. Either the gear, the aa count, or the skillset of the character in question is at fault.
I think it's definitely hilarious if you believe any of that justifies the duality of your classes, while player tanks suffer lower DPS, a longer gearing path and in one case rock-bottom soloability to accomplish just the tanking role.
Damn, despite the OP never mentioning mages or their pets, this did deteriorate into yet another 'mage pets are overpowered' thread.
I rather think it suggests a better path relevant to the thread's title How to fix group tanks? Lots more DPS Much easier gearing Better DPS/Tanking flexibility
^ Agreed -Tank gear (visible slots are an easy area that won't inflate non tanks) should see increased hp/ac and tanking relevant mod2s -Ac augments alternatives (slightly underpowered vs the best last 1-2 expansions) should be quickly available to get tanks up to speed -Damage output when not in turtle mode with a shield needs to be ramped up - let those PC tanks actually contribute more Net results is more effective tanks hopefully saturating the group game ... giving groups a reason to choose a PC tank.
It's though the people here have never played tanks, and are new to the whole raid vs. group balance in EQ... Tanks are melee. Melee scale best with gear. A raid geared melee's DPS is several times that of his group geared buddy. His tanking ability trivializes group content. Thus it has been with all raid geared melees. Mages are casters. Casters do not scale that great with gear. A raid geared caster's DPS is ahead of his group geared buddy's, but not tremendously so. The same goes for his pet's tankability. Thus it has been with all raid geared casters. This dynamic was there from the beginning of EQ. You are a caster, you achieve 70% of a raid char's performance with group gear. You are a melee, you achieve 30% of a raid char's performance with group gear. Group geared mages achieve 70% of what raid geared mages achieve. Group geared tanks achieve 30% of what raid geared tanks achieve. That's the way EQ was balanced, and whether you agree with it, it's built into the foundations of what EQ is. You want to change that, you open up a can of worms, because it's not just group tanks who are suffering, it's all group geared melees. Then you have to buff base melee DPS, scale down the effects of raid gear on melee DPS, retune the whole she-bang. Because at the end of the day, group tanks suffering is simply the manifestation of a larger imbalance between casters and melees when it comes to how they scale with gear. Personally, I don't think EQ is at the stage where this imbalance is still worth tackling. There are basically no new players, and all the ones who play tanks today are raiders.
Do you have numbers/statistics to back up that statement or are you just making up facts as you go along? ", and all the ones who play tanks today are raiders." Please do not interject make-believe BS into discussions on ways to improve the current status of group-geared tanks. Yet another absolutely made up fact that has no business in this discussion. This phenomenon of casters having an automatically easier job is a much more recent development ... one that started with the inception of out of combat regen. Back in the before time ... the long, long ago ... a caster's overall usefulness and power curve over time was just as gear sensitive as melees. Flowing thought ... mana pool ... they were beyond relevant in the group game. If you didn't have a solid base of gear and mana regen with appropriate gear based focus, that impacted your sustained damage in a bad way. Without a large mana pool, your burst potential from both a full bar and a balanced grouping bar was significantly limited. OOC regen was the first step, and cut-backs with copy/paste itemization has basically made it so that gear decisions and obtaining that focus has become largely irrelevant. When you pair that with the piss-poor decision to make the gap between rank 1, 2 and 3 spells so stupidly small compared to the group vs raid weapon ratio difference ... problem magnified. This wasn't a dynamic "there from the beginning of EQ". It's been a progression of "fail" decisions that came long after PoP, GoD, OoW, DoDh.
I think it proves 1 class is completely broke.. ae damn near noncompetitive ae dmg and a pet that is capable of out performing a half-decent (notice not great tank). Both aspects of the class is completely screwed up compared to any other 1 class in game.... If it's to continue they shouldn't even near compete on a burn /sustain to any other class in game. period. But I'm biased as they never used to be ... once upon a time.
