How to fix group tanks...

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Trasa, Dec 28, 2013.

  1. Denial_Sinfae Augur

    This whole thread is funny. There's so much misinformation and irrelevant data thrown in.

    I run a raid geared SK. Good stuff.

    I have a group geared war (9.2k AA), and a group geared paladin(6.1k AA).

    I can tank anything I want on any of the aforementioned 3. I can go to EK and with no time to bleed and cycling other abilities engage a named with a merc, and stand toe to toe with the nameds all day with no slow. It can never kill me, but, likewise I can never kill it.

    This thread is about the ability to survive tanking in group content? Or about being able to survive and be near the top of the parse on content? I am not sure what is being said. On my warrior I even have a slot or two that is from VoA instead of RoF.

    Also... The unholy and holy disciplines aren't "buggy" they have stacking issues that have been asked to be looked at and perhaps have some slots re-assigned. If the group tank (or raid, knowledge is universal) knows their class, they will know what to block (druid final ranks of Natures Wrath), and what to not activate (VoD) to keep their discs from interfering with one another.

    Oh, another thing I remembered seeing before I started skipping pages...

    Knights don't both have things to help mitigate on their challenge lines... Paladins get a 10% mitigation on their challenge... SKs only get AC. Which, technically you can say AC helps mitigate, but it's not an obvious mitigation like paladins flat adjustment.

    Oh yea, I noticed the other night with the added Valiant line, paladins now "lifetap" better than SKs. It's shrouded under "healing your targets target" but it's in essence a LT. You just don't see the crit damage to x4 the heal, yet paladins get more healing AA. Which is irrelevant to the OP, other than the fact that paladins have plenty of ability to heal themselves and survive, especially if they had 10k AA and current gear.
  2. Machen New Member

    I never discussed tank mercs. Maybe read my post before telling me how wrong I am.
  3. Gnomeland Augur

    It's warriors who were front-loaded till NTTB.

    Mage pets > warrior tanks when the latter isn't popping discs.

    But given that player tanks are built around popping discs, that's a ridiculous criteria to have in the first place.

    A warrior with defensive > mage pets, guaranteed.

    NTTB closes the gap between pets and warriors.

    SKs and Paladins need to make use of their spells before they complain.
  4. Gnomeland Augur

    Mage pets were nerfed because they were being used to tank raid content over players.

    The devs specifically said they didn't want the nerf to affect the group game. It ended up affecting it, but the devs never, ever said they wanted mage pets to not tank current content.
  5. Tharrg Augur

    ^ that is why I see so many All mage box groups..... to make up for no Discipline tanks....
  6. Gnomeland Augur


    Uh, no. You see a lot of all mage box groups because they are easy to box. There's a boxing 3rd party app out there that allows you to send the same command to every window at the same time. Perfect for boxing mages, but bad for boxing different characters. People make all mage box groups to max boxing performance because it's the easiest box group to get optimal performance out of with 3rd party apps.
  7. wenlaya Journeyman

    i tanked a dead hills mission on my 8k AA group/t1 geared ranger.....
  8. Tharrg Augur

    So what you are saying is I should report every all mage groups I see for possible exploits... because they may be using 3rd party apps?
  9. Gnomeland Augur

  10. Explicit Augur

  11. Ravengloome Augur

    Between our Self heals and cooldowns; Paladins and SK's are in pretty good territory as far as self healing goes. SK's being alittle worse off then Paladins. But we aren't talking by a ton.

    Denial: SK challenge decimates Paladin one in every way shape and form if they have a cleric merc, cleric, or druid healing for group > The vie doesnt stack with Vie, Bastion, or Adrenaline recourse. it does F*** all if you have one of those classes in group. Also IIRC Mantle/Armor function as a Vie, which means the Paladin challenge also doesn't stack with their defensives. < Theres no reason really to even use the Paladin challenge if your a paladin
    Mykaylla likes this.
  12. Tarrin Augur

    Not to nitpick an otherwise informative post, the AA to block I believe you are refering to is "Wrath of the Wild". Single shot big DD that conflicts for some reason with some of the knight defensive discs.
  13. Tharrg Augur

  14. Ryneis Elder

    All,

    Have read posts through the topic and will provide my input.

    Tank classes in general are harder to get into current content due to AAs, gear, and augments needed. This provides the first layer of discontent. This is nothing new and has been around for as long as I remember. I, however, will say is more emphasized due to the amount of damage mobs do now.

    Issue one leads into issue two with tank classes: Mage pet tanking. At least as far as I can remember, Mage pets have done tanking. This is really not an issue. The issue with tanking classes is that little to nothing is needed to achieve this tank ability. I personally think this part is really more frustration with getting a tank ready to "tank." Mage's are unfortunately at the receiving end of the frustration here.

    The final issue with tanks is that they spend all the time preparing their class getting AAs, gear, augmentations, and practice using their skills and, there are times when it just does not matter. They can still be one rounded from trash or easy mobs in the expansion. Now it does not need to be one rounded but a quick kill due to range etc... To me, non-level increase expansions seem to highlight this aspect. For whatever reason, the game play at the appropriate level(100 for COTF) just seems overly hard. Additionally, there never seems to be an easy area for those expansions. Now one can argue that it is an extension to the previous expansion and it should be as hard or harder than the previous expansions end zone. It is a valid argument. As a player, I have been on both sides of this view but, over time I think there needs to be easier areas for that type of casual gamer to entice them to buy the expansion and some better tuning is needed especially for the non-level increase expansions. Personally, I responded to this one as a no purchase as I have been disappointed in similar expansions every time.

    Ryneis
  15. shiftie Augur

    Vies don't stack the ac on your challenge line is dad better. If you have a cleric or merc casting sb or the duration vie paladins get zero benefit other than aggro on challenge. Not to mention discs also remove the benefit of this vie and they have a tott heal with a vie as well being jealous of paladin challenge is completely misguided at worst and laughable at best.
  16. Denial_Sinfae Augur


    Ah, yea that's the one. There's a thread on it in the knights section that has the actual ID's to block if anyone didn't know and was interested.


    There was no jealousy. Just pointing things out. I block all vies except for SB, I hate short duration fluff buffs I can't control. Regardless of any of that, staying in line with this thread's points-- group paladin and SK can survive current content wouldn't you agree?

    That is the point.
  17. Tharrg Augur

    The more I hear about issues with Tanking end game and group content past where I am... the more I worry. I will say.. from what I know starting out almost 15 years ago as a warrior and playing a warrior almost exclusivly as my main (though I have played all classes). Gear was always more important than anything untill AA's were introduced. But I will agree with some that as expansions have came and I have gone higher and higher into them, Even being Topped geared for my level. And getting the AA's that I should get, the content has become harder and harder and its been exponential in its difficulty. The sheer number of HP that mobs have plus there attacks and effects decimate tanks if they are not careful. And I havent even made it past level 80 (I refuse to level untill I am maxed on AA I need) So If what I have witnessed as I leveled keeps its flow... then no matter your gear or AA's the content will surpass the Tanks ability to survive.. I think Plate should mitigate damage better, and the Higher the AC the more it should also Mitigate. But I would prefer Tanks (warrior's only... not those fake wannabes :p) to have the most capability to Tank and be far superior to any other class...
  18. Siddar Augur


    I would like to see link to dev's stating this. If that was reason then they failed in both not effecting group game and in preventing mage pets from raid tanking. I also see no reason why they would nerf necro and beast pets at same time as mage pets when necro and beast pets were never tanking raid mobs effectively.

    What did happen was what I stated pets ability to tank 3-4 white/yellow con mobs at a time was reduced.
  19. Tharrg Augur

    Here you go... Ok.. this was taken DIRECTLY from Ngreth, in the locked post titled "What is a magician pet?"
    I can't quote it because the thread is locked.. but read if you like http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/what-is-a-magician-pet.3408/page-3

    "I did not read this entire thread. I just want to make one thing clear.

    The method that is being considered should not effect mage pet tanking in the group and solo game, only the raid game. It is possible in some extreme group situations, with certain very difficult group based NPC's that there may be an effect, but it will be the exception NOT the rule. As a rule, the mage pets will be as effective as they are currently in current group content. Upgrade will likely be necessary for future pets to be effective in future content, but that should not be unexpected. This will also be variable, with "hard" group NPC's (I.E. rares and bosses) needing an upgrade sooner than standard base-pop.

    While this may confuse people, at this time I do not want to give details because the work is in progress and is subject to change.

    Our goal is to ONLY affect raid tanking... not make group pet tanking worse, NOR make it better. If the change we have planned cannot manage this for 99% of group targets, then we will seriously evaluate the changes. Our current goal is to only affect pets raid tanking."

    That is straight from Ngreth, when clearly the following states otherwise:

    Posted from test notes 4/11/2013:
  20. Raymond Lorekeeper

    I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to not get it.

    EQ game mechanics broke tanks and Mage pets so that Mage pets outclass all but only the best, precisely geared and skilled player tanks. EQ code can't be fixed.

    But go ahead, get 40 pieces of gear (Vis, non-vis and augs for it all) and I'll go grab one earring.
    Xeladom, Dre. and Tharrg like this.