Druid Wishes

Discussion in 'Priests' started by Allayna, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper

    I am glad to have brought some levity into your painful necro existence. :) I have no quarrel with the sentiment that necros should get their DOT revamp now, so you can stop complaining about my ideas based on that slight. Certainly, necros should be the DOT kings - and, despite the lack of the promised update, they remain so. When updated, they will be, no doubt, far superior to anything I suggest for druids in that regard. I hope that update gets done and gets done soon.

    However, though I am subject to ridicule here, I will continue to advocate for significant changes to the druid class, and, yes, for increases in DOT and DD damage, as well as Mana Regen, and general cast times. There is consensus that our debuffs need attention - and I agree - but I see no reason for me to say more on that matter at this time.

    Comments made earlier by Coas are misleading. Druids can only get 2 million tics from Nature's Blistering Wrath when paired with an enchanter, by timing their cast just right, and by getting a crit tick with druid Twincast running. Chromatic Haze has a 10 minute cooldown. I don't know if that can be significantly reduced or not - so, for the sake of discussion, let's say it can be reduced to a 7 minute cooldown. For the sake of the discussion I will imagine that that fortunate druid who is always grouped with a chanter casts NBW with Haze running every 7 mins and gets a crit tick every other tick. With DOT extension perhaps that means 4 tics after initial DD component take effect. So, that's the DD (perhaps 300K damage) plus 2 ticks at 2 mill each (not a certainty) and 2 ticks at about 300K. All of that across 24 seconds ( I won't worry about cast time at this point). All told that is nearly 5 mill damage. Sounds great!

    But, in fact, that is only about 200K dps (I'm being generous here)…...which plenty of other classes can do easily. Yes, we have other spells we can cast, and if we blow our various burn AAs we can add another 350K dps or so. But plenty of other toons can put out significantly more than that (without the downtime caused by low mana)…...heck, my zerker can hit for nearly 2 mill once every 45 seconds! With buffs/songs/auras etc....from other toons, he does better than that. (Even though he has lesser gear than my druid, and 7 K fewer AA). Just today I read a wizard thread on the forums where TBL wizards were talking about their nukes, and how they can frequently hit (without help from other toons) 2 mill in damage. (All that without figuring for lucky Twincast strikes).

    Of course, then druids have 6 mins 30 secs of normal dps until the next CH/Twincast combo. And of course, that will be at less than optimal, because our mana is now running very low. (Yes, I use Wolf nearly 100% uptime). Lets imagine that we somehow manage 150K dps for 2 mins while trying to get some mana back.....then 200K for several minutes after that.. our dps across those 7 mins is about 210K dps.

    Not exceptional by any means.

    Now, factor in the fact that we can't fill in other roles while doing that - again, one of the supposed highlights of the class - and you begin to see the problem.

    The real truth is that those numbers are far beyond what most druids can attain. Especially in group and solo play, AND those figures are skewed by the chanter pairing, which in all fairness, should not be a part of this discussion.....as I don't see other classes being evaluated in light of their synergy with other toons.

    I'll stop here, and wait for the criticism to begin.

    That won't change my mind, since most of the criticism comes from folks who are at the highest levels of the game (raid geared, and raid focused) or who don't play druid toons as mains. Solo and group druids know that we pale in comparison to other classes with similar gear and AA levels (Hello mages!)

    Ultimately, I ask the question: if the class is fine as is, why don't more people play it as a main? Why shouldn't druids be able to contribute more significantly and directly to group play?

    Having played the toon for nearly 20 years, I can say that the gap between us and virtually every other toon has increased, continues to do so, and needs to be addressed.

    I will do what I can to create some noise and get the devs to notice.
  2. Allayna Augur

    Druids need help in healing, mana return on death, and spell gem limitations, un-linking lines of heals adding either a HoT or splash and combining our debuffs would go a long way in improving the druid class.

    There was so much Raeff....

    Druids are priests. You know, priest archtype, healers, etc.... They were the jack of all class and were able to dabble but were the worst at each. Worst track, worst heals, worst dots, worst DDs, worst charmers (animal limited).

    When they revamped and then nerfed our DoT damage, we became dps. Hell, 60s Grummus I was putting out 400K dps just DD damage pre-dot revamp. Now sustained druids can do between 400K - 800K but it depends on available resources of course and your knowledge of the class.

    Why can't druids do their other roles when doing dps? Ours do just fine doing just that.

    200K, the low number you post is more than a cleric can dps or a paladin while doing their respective roles as tank or healer.

    Your idea for summon immunity, ultra root (rooting of root immune mobs), and 5 extra gems just for druids would be completely exploited and should not be implemented.

    You might as well ask for pet AAs and an upgraded BOBO....

    The class isn't played because the cast time of spells have lagged drastically behind melee classes. Add in the nerfs to TLs, a long broken dicho (now fixed I believe), lack of DoT revamps (for necros) causing a debuff limit issue, lackluster healing abilities, no HoT, 5 min re-use tiny area splash....

    I wanna like your ideas....but they are too far fetched and would bring a drastically out of balance class.
    code-zero likes this.
  3. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper

  4. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper

    Apologies for that last posting error..

    Allayna said the following: "Druids are priests. You know, priest archtype, healers, etc.... They were the jack of all class and were able to dabble but were the worst at each. Worst track, worst heals, worst dots, worst DDs, worst charmers (animal limited)."

    My reply:

    So, I guess your logic is "druids have always been the worst, so they should remain so". Kind of self-defeating and arbitrary.

    It seems ridiculous that any class - in a game where we all pay the same to play - should be sidelined as support or utility, without real viability in group and solo gameplay. I think it is time for the devs to recognize that is neither fair to the druid player base, nor good for the game.

    My suggestions do intend to call into question what "class balance" really means, since I sense that many players - and often devs - use that idea as a way of upholding outdated stereotypes, and keeping obviously more powerful classes at the top of the heap. Is "class balance" really about maintaining current or even historical hierarchies ('druids have always been weak, so have no business wanting increases in DPS or desiring buffs or healing capabilities that really impact their survivability").

    In fact, what I advocate is a scenario where every class is viable, with variable survivability and dps depending on the situation. Thus, I have suggested that druids be granted some kind of global bane damage boost - perhaps to orcs, goblins, kobolds - that would allow them to bring significantly more dps in those encounters (of course this means that enough of those mobs need to populate each expansion). Or a location specific boost (creating some use and value for druid circles perhaps?) that allow druids to be uniquely effective in those areas.

    These are only suggestions for my class. I have no problem with other classes - especially classes relegated to 'support' roles...SHM, Bards, you can make a case for several more - having other similar situational advantages to seek out.

    Failing that, I return to the idea of an anti-summon buff (short term, long recast). Though you say the idea is highly exploitable, I am waiting to hear an example describing such an exploit. Are you imagining groups of 5 and 6 druids gathered together swarming named mobs and firing off their anti-summon buffs, one at time until the mob is dead? Crazy! Each druid could not do enough dps in their 30 second protected burn to kill the mob, thus would be subject to the summon that would inevitably result after their buff falls off. In modern content, that druid is now dead. Ok - maybe they all fire their buff off at one time and burn like crazy. What's to stop the mob from running to them and killing them via melee one at a time? Nothing (named mobs are most often immune to root and snare). Even in that scenario, it is uncertain that the group of druids could do enough total damage to kill the mob before it got to them, or before the buff wears off. In any case, it would be a high risk scenario, with victory very uncertain - which seems right up EQ's alley.

    Really, why is it sacrosanct to suggest changes to summon dynamics? There was a time when summon did not exist, so a historical argument doesn't really wash. It should be very possible to work out any number of ways toons can handle summoning mobs (esp for toons that can't take them on toe to toe). No reason at all that druids don't have way to keep casting and fighting when faced with a summoning mob. No reason a variety of classes don't have a way to occasionally mitigate that problem.

    Hehe - my only real concern with such a buff is whether or not it will really be useful enough....not whether or not it is OP.

    I think out of the box thinking is what is necessary for EQ to remain enjoyable for the whole player base, and I don't think the incremental changes you suggest will even begin to accomplish that end in any way.

    And certainly those incremental changes will only perpetuate your wish to keep the druid class "the worst at each. Worst track, worst heals, worst dots, worst DDs, worst charmers (animal limited)."

    How is that even helpful?
  5. Allayna Augur

    I don't think you've read my posts or understand that I'm attempting to help druids get a boost out of the next expansion. They have been left behind in many regards.... dps however, isn't one of them.

    You also don't want a "bane damage" specifically for druids....

    Ask paladins how much slaying with their "bane damage" they did during TBL.
  6. blood & gufts Augur

    Normally druids/shamans have been good balanced with healing vs dps.But with EoK that balance got shaken big time with the rewamp of dots.
    So now they both might need to be belanced back towards healing. So coming expansion less offensive powers, but more healing powers. Thinking here, that they get higher increase than otehrs in regard toward healing but less in offensiver powers than others.
  7. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper

    RE Allayna's post - "I'm attempting to help druids get a boost out of the next expansion."

    I do see that. And you have already heard that I support that effort in terms of the debuffs, breaking of the recursive healing linkages, consolidating of dot/debuffs, changing heal cast times or recast timers.

    Those changes would be helpful, yet would lead, primarily, to a variety of quality of life changes. Very few of them would help the druid contribute to faster kills or significant more survivability.

    In fact, such changes are simply too limited in scope, and too vanilla to help revive a vanishing class.

    However, more dps, increased mana regen, and lowered cast times on dps spells would allow druids to participate, more often in the kinds of experience gain that help keep the game rewarding and our characters evolving. And would contribute to faster kills in all phases of the game. That would be helpful.

    Why not try to shake things up a bit, and question the hierarchy that you operate from - that apparently you are just fine with - that druids are "the worst" in all those categories you previously enumerated?

    Will these things be implemented? Not likely, but, on the other hand, some of the things you espouse - however positive they may be - have been discussed for several expansions. But, most of those suggestions have not been implemented.

    Seems to me we might as well aim for real change, and hope to change the culture that insists we be terrible at many things.

    ~ Raeff
  8. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper

    Increases in healing would help the group game in some instances - which I am game for - but I feel are too limited.

    Why not more dps? I rarely have groups asking me to join as a healer, and unless I form the group, I certainly don't get requests to join as dps.

    I am not sure the changes you suggest will do enough to grant us value to a group when groups are choosing between a druid or mage, or druid or shammy, or druid or wizard.

    The only druids I see espousing such limited change are raid geared and maxed AA druids....
  9. Ambition Apprentice

    They nerfed it in RoF
    Allayna likes this.
  10. blood & gufts Augur

    Why no more dps, because as I see it, druids/shamans are already too good in dps, considering they priest classes. And as such are healers.
  11. bigpapa Augur

    :: Why no more dps, because as I see it, war / sk are already too good in dps, considering they tank classes.......................well , depending how good they play their class .
  12. Tuona New Member

    I like my druid and for the most part I'm okay with what her abilities are. My main issues are with the healing and the cold debuffs.

    I would like to see the vida line heal for more. Unless it crit heals it doesn't heal for enough. I would also like to see the luna group heal line cast quicker and refresh quicker. On raids with big ae damage that cast time is too long.

    For the cold debuffs Breath and Frost I would like to see at least one of them put onto an AA like the Ro AA. If it is not possible to do both, then my choice would be Frostreave Breath as an AA. The reason I ask for the cold debuff or one of them at least to be an AA is due to the spell gem issue. From a raid perspective, it's fun to do a druid burn. However, that fun and in turn dps in a short duration burn fight is affected if you have to cast the two cold debuffs and then switch them for two other spells to run in the burn. So if just one of those two cold debuffs could be moved to an AA, then this would really help from having fun doing a burn perspective.

    Vyne and Allayna like this.
  13. Spellfire Augur

    I'm not going to be that guy and post parses, but from what I'm seeing in raids, druids do not need more dps.
  14. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper

    I find it frustrating that many of the folks commenting here are not druids, or don't main a druid. I believe that many of those placers preach "balance" but really mean "stay in your place as an ineffectual toon, so MY place the in pecking order remains secure." Again, I say, a more effective priest class, in both healing AND dps, does little harm to anyone else, and only makes those classes modestly more playable in solo, group, and mission play. It would also make those classes more popular again, thus allowing more options for content where player-character healers are a necessity.

    I also find it tiresome that folks cite the old "priests are healers" logic, and refuse to admit that the game has evolved hugely since the early years. Even then, I was rarely main healer in the group (more clerics then), and I was often paired with necros and shammys root/rotting. At that time the difference between the DoT classes was less pronounced such that root/rotting was an effective levelling strategy for all of them. With the advent of mercs and exponential increases in mob HPS (not to mention the addition of summons, and root/snare immune mobs) the priest classes started a slow death spiral. Since devs and enough influential players (from other classes) remained devoted to this concept (priest = healer and not much else), that decline remains. Of course, raiders remain fixed to that concept - because raids require player character healers, and raiders want more of those folks to help them progress. But group and solo players in the priest class continue to die out.

    Simply put, in modern content, the idea that priest classes should not receive dps boosts simply because we are "healers" is ridiculous. Mercs have made that idea obsolete. Moreover, BST and mage pet heals (and runes) have been improved exponentially expansion after expansion. SK heals continue to grow, are already very impressive, and help SKs tackle multiple mobs at time, sometimes with no healer at all. The strength of mage pets and beast pets allows those classes to handle modern content in solo or box groups. Warrior and SKs do strong dps, as do monks - while also remaining legitimate tanks.

    The point is that class definitions have changed. I have no problem with the classes mentioned having the abilities I describe. Good, more power to them.

    But the very fact that they have those skills suggests that other classes - priests classes being my focus here - should share in the bounty. And how we share in that should not be limited so severely by the fact that raid burn dps (for druids) might be reasonable "for a priest class." I have already described the consequences of that burn - minutes upon minutes of lesser dps due to low mana regen, high mana cost of spells - and I have already described that that kind of dps is rare....depending on closely timed buffs from bards and chanters. The fact that druids can - rarely - put out ok dps (and thus should not receive boosts in that area) is not a reasonable argument that will help the solo, group or mission druid at all.

    In short, those ideas of balance are outdated and unreasonable.

    Devs - please consider assisting druid dps as well as heals for the next expansion. We need some help in order to be viable again.
  15. blood & gufts Augur

    Just because I do not have druid in my title does not mean I do not play druid main.

    My purpose is however to have the druid strangthen in healing instead of dps. We got our increase in dps from when dots where inproved. I will 10 times rather have to be strengthen there, and I am willing to sacrifice some of dps for that purpose, as I am old fashioned druid and it will me stronger in raids..

    I also know that sometimes you gotta go on compromise to achieve something, and cannot expect to get all wishes come true.
  16. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    Another minor thing I thought of.

    I’m not extremely keen on druid’s getting HoTs like the other priest classes, but Clerics/Shamans all have access to the Healing Boon AA line which provides a roughly 50% chance for each tick of a HoT to critical. This is extremely valuable when using MGB HoT AAs like Celestial Regen or Ancestral Aid because the benefits of the AA granting heal tick critical chances are spread across an entire raid.

    Using the shaman line as an example, which has the lowest value Heal it does 8k/tick. If we are assuming about a 50% crit rate, and 54 members on a raid, by virtue of having this crit rate available you are adding an additional 2million potential healing over your entire raid.

    I’d like to see Druids either get access to Healing Boon OR rework our Convergence of Spirit and Spirit of the Wood AAs to have chances to either tick for Base amount or tick for double the base amount half the time. Or I guess increase the base value by about 50% on top of whatever random increases they get due to level increase/inflation adjustments to acknowledge our lack of ability to make these HoTs crit.
  17. Allayna Augur

    I can agree with making dps more sustainable, that's an easy argument, currently the druid is one of the weakest classes in regards to regaining mana, especially at death. Couple that with some of the highest mana cost DPS spells and the slowest heals, it's easy to see why shaman is an easy pick over a druid for healing in the group or raid game.

    The part I disagree with is that you think the druid dps isn't already amazing. You must be the only one in EQ who thinks the druid dps is so lacking. Or the player is lacking, who knows.

    Your post is the type that Dzarn was referring to here:

    This particular part was talking about necro dot revamp, but I underlined an aspect I see as a theme in your posts.

    I hope the developers do make an effort to improve each and every class, especially from a playability/versatility aspect. But they need accurate responses, like what I've seen from Darchon, Kuvani, Rolaque and the like....yours seem to be the outlier.
  18. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    After the nerf dropping druid AEs down to only 5 targets I’d like to see them consider one of two options.

    First is increase the target limit to 12 to match the Wizard/Magician Beams. These spells were very useful for farming Grey cons for Tradeskills, Slayer or old Hunter Achievements. Now with the 5 hit limit they’re much less useful for that. Increasing to hit 12 targets I think would be balanced against what these other caster DPS classes can do.

    Second is if they refuse to do that, bring the spells damage and mana values up by a factor of 5. The reason is like to see this is to open up the option to quad kite like we used to for EXP. With their current damage values they take forever to bring down current content mobs. Quad kiting of old you would only need to cast about 5-10 quad Nukes to bring down a pull. Currently you need to cast about 30-40. If you greatly increase the raw damage value on the spell and the mana value you’d bring it back as a feasible EXPing option, and with a mana value in the 12-14k region you’d prevent it from being used regularly as a single target spell with its much higher base Nuke.

    I know most boxing Druids couldn’t give 2 coppers about AE Nukes but as someone whose been mostly a solo player for the entirety of my druid career, it’s nice to have a reasonable soloing method for EXP so I can stay current on levels and AAs.
  19. Rolaque Augur

    I would like better dps, especially in groups. Our standard fire nukes are weak at best in groups. Our cold nukes require our cold debuff to ensure they do any damage. Our magic nukes would be all right, but they get resisted too often to be more useful in groups. Our 3 dots form the backbone of our dps, but the loss of effective dps from the sunray and moonbeam dots is still crippling and pathetic.

    And the continuing absence of a fire aura that works above level 105 is a true indicator of how much the devs think about druids. They just don't care.
  20. Sancus Augur

    I hate to be that guy that posts in another class's wishes thread, but what? Heliacal Eruption Rk. III and Frostreave Chill Rk. III have base damages of 15385 and 15105, respectively. Five times that is 76925 and 75525 base damage respectively. Ethereal Skyfire, a Wizard's largest single target nuke, has a base damage of approximately half that (40421). Excluding Wizard Dicho (a 60s recast spell with significant limitations on what modifies it), that would be by far the highest base damage nuke in the game. And it would hit five targets.

    On a burn in a raid, Heliacal Eruption would average approximately 2.58 million damage per cast per target, not accounting for any additional synergies, procs, etc, which equates to ~814k DPS. For comparison (since I did this in my Mage spreadsheet), Spear of Molten Arcronite would average 1.41 million or ~411k DPS under the same conditions. With five targets, Heliacal would be at 12.9 million per cast, or ~4.07 million DPS per cast.

    Druid DPS is not "reasonable for a priest," it's neck and neck with some of the lower tier DPS classes (or near the top, event depending). I can perhaps understand some requests to rebalance DPS in a way that helps group DPS without increasing raid DPS at all, but some of the requests in this thread on the DPS front (this one especially) are egregiously excessive. I'm not sure if people are simply unaware of what Druids can do or if they're being intentionally misleading.
    Allayna likes this.

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