New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Warriors have in the past, asked for more utility, and it was routinely denied by devs. Most of the ideas that I've seen warriors asking for has been denied, with little to no response from the devs.

What other "Utility" do YOU think warriors should have?

Personally i think it would have been more interesting, if warriors had gotten a targettable Mitigation increase buff (So basically the DP) and knights not gotten the stances at all, That would allow them to put it on another tank (and it would be useless to do to another warrior since they already have SB) and then Knights wouldnt have had to get DP.

But the cats out of the bag now

This thread is hilarious.

Will it reach 100 pages?

Indeed, therefore I'm entitled to have more mitigation than you.
While you got the warrior cake, same mitigation than them, and kept your gigantic utility there too.
I'm completly fine to have less utility than knights, but in counterpart I chose to have more raw mitigation.
The balance between tank classes is very strongly in your favor, and you know it, but instead of admitting it, you try to do personal attacks in this thread to try to change of subject.

You call me arrogant, and then you post this ? We don't want to be a third knight class.
The best solution remains imo to reduce the Knight Def Proficiency % of knights.

You want to make us believe, with the double aggro boost you received on your aggro spells ,Bold Attack upgrade, and tools yet at your disposal (Hi Knight hate pet) that you aren't able to hold aggro when MT Raid Bosses ?
I lol.

Or, this thread is hilarious.

From shortly before knight stances:

I truly never observed the problems you mentioned in game. You were vague in this particular post, so I don't know exactly what content and mobs you meant. Considering you were one of the few raiding paladins with a (public) general complaint about survivability, I'm genuinely curious what content you struggled with.

The last mob I saw eat through paladins with Guardian running was WK2 commander in CotF, which ironically was one of the last bosses tuned without warrior stances, so it had 60% LS in mind. Considering NTTB was pretty much counterproductive on all TDS raids, it couldn't be that either. Dichtomic Shield didn't exist in TDS. We had prenerf Brace for Impact for most of TDS so we did have a 5% vie boost over shining before our first death.

Or was it a matter of you thinking you should be able to tank any mob in the game without Guardian, like warriors and (to a lesser extent) SKs?

I did not say i couldnt hold aggro, i said i could not hold it as well as a warrior.

What double aggro boost? Oh, you mean the one that never happened? Try going back and reading what they did. Paladins received no boost to our aggro. They changed how aggro numbers were displayed in the spell data to match how it actually worked in game, and REDUCED aggro for direct casters. They did nothing for paladin aggro except change a display number that you don't even see without using a spell parser.

That's funny. I remember dying *constantly* to adds on Tita's ghost, to book adds on arx2, to rampage on Callix, and to a lesser extent to adds on Arx1 and arx4. It was so bad whenever possible we used warriors and sks for add tanking and left paladins as healers, only tanking when we had to due to overall tank numbers on. SKs mainly because they could get good ae aggro, not because of any tanking advantage.

Dying at speeds and in a manner that never happened on ANY event in CoTF, or any other expansion in a decade. It was a standing complaint from every paladin I know, in my guild and others. It was mentioned on this boards a lot by many other paladins. It was pointed out near nightly in serverwide chat, and mentioned sarcastically in just about every post knights made about our defensive proficiency was "going to get nerfed". Because none of us expected them to just hand it to us to fix the problem. The problem was warriors having it in the first place, which is why content was tuned like it was. You were handed flash, DP, and broken aggro abilities all at once and content was tuned to it.

Any tank, and most non-tanks can tank just fine with 2-3 dedicated healers. But guess what you don't have as a paladin during the arx era when it was current content? 2-3 dedicated healers unless you are tanking the 2nd one off raid or you get put on the MT rotation due to lack of warriors logging in.

On Tita's ghost, arguably NTTB was more important for add tanking for warriors than stances.

For Tita's ghost, on the last wave my guild assigned 2 tanks to each side, with the second one as a backup in case 1st tank missed the tag or died. -All- tanks saved fort/deflect for the last wave. Like you said, paladins weren't as good at tagging these waves due to inferior AE aggro tools. If any side died or screwed up, things could snowball fast and it little to do with which class had the extra mobs.

Regardless, Tita's ghost was overtuned because it was overtuned, not because of warrior abilities. It's clear the devs didn't put as much time into tuning this optional raid in beta.

For arx4, I had a feeling this was one. If you think warriors are better at arx4, you're wrong. The stunnable adds before the bosses spawned were hard hitters and were designed to be pally/enc locked down. We put wars and SKs on the snareables, and killed those first. If we didn't have enough stunners, we didn't attempt arx4. My lifespan vs stunnables was generally lower than paladins.

It's funny you mention ramp tanking arx5. One night we had paladins MT the bosses on arx5 with warrior RTs (this was before SK got DA hammer.) Keeping warrior RTs alive was the limiting factor, by far, even with LS+NTTB. I really don't think knights understand how bad it is to RT without a DA hammer and no self heals. Warriors should have a DA hammer too.

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Something you didn't mention was event 3. Event 3's boss probably would've been a hard tank for knights during the aura. It was a hard tank for wars too, we solved this by putting a bard in tank group and bugging encs to cast dot shields on MT as much as possible. Getting an unlucky DOT tick at the same time as a melee round could be dangerous.

Funny when it was grossly in your favor it was fine. Yes don't look at that 30% DP you had all to yourself back then and say it wasn't all that much when all other tanks had to run a disk and you did not. DP was horrible for the game and a poor choice to help you out in downward scaling content.

Knights in this thread including myself have said they over did it in one fashion or another with the stances, you skipped that part how many times now? However Daybreak did blanket the Knight increase with we want them to tank better. Maybe whip out a Shiftie boner and blame him for Knights getting DP.

To top that off you want to talk down to knights telling what they may or may not be allowed to do. What they may or may not have as an ability or spell so yes you come off as completely arrogant and I am not trying to change the subject. You want to have a honest constructive conversation NP drop the ego and it can be done. It doesn't help your view Daybreak has already partially addressed the Knight change with the patch notes so its kinda a lets move on and see what needs to be done for what class to try and balance things so we can all do our job at the end of the day.

You read and hear what you want and what you really want is knights to be nerfed so you can be the best by miles in mitigation, DPS and agro. Neither Knight class is going to accept being nerfed because Warriors are the most needy one trick pony in all of EQ. Yet you cry about self healing to attempt to legitimize your position...Self healing is not a Warrior thing...Ill support you getting Runes or something to off set what you probably need, the total numbers are not up to me that's Daybreaks job.

How does stubbornly holding this stance help Warriors?

Do they need to come back and make some adjustments I'm going to say yes, but again feel free to ignore that also for convenience sake of your argument.

All we have is and moaning from the Warriors here and not ONE thread to start doing anything positive for your class. Probably been a lot of PM's going to Developers to nerf Knights though. How about a thread to upgrade and or combine old disks and AA into new ones to make them functional and hopefully reduce the number of key presses you need to use per raid. Something you can use for downward scaling to better molo / solo but does not become OP in a group and raid setting. IDK something beside crying I don't like that someone else got stuff and I didn't get anything, or what they got went to far and nerf them but don't offer me anything I don't want it.

Yet I can almost safely bet we will see comments like no thank you sir we don't want to be some third Knight class, please nerf knights so we can have our Epeen back.

The proficiency is very needed, what you need, on the other hand, is to learn how to play the game. You're on line to be the next Mistatk with how much crap you spread about your game knowledge. Oh right I forgot, you raid with the hardcore open raid lol. What do you know about the game exactly? Nothing, go raid with your pick up. Warriors need to also get their Dichotomic nerfed btw.

Or, we need its damage capped raised to be more like armor/mantle, Warlord's Bravery's hit limited dramatically boosted, and the Brace for Impact nerf undone... if knights are going to keep anything remotely close to their currently broken DP + Mantle->Armor/Carapace stack.

I am entitled to be the best on mitigation. DPS and aggro i don't care, stop putting words in people's mouth when it's false.
We sacrificed utility for having the best mitigation over all EQ classes, including Knights.
But knights are greedy, and made an evil campaign against warriors in a thread called "How the Dev team see SK ?". Now they had more than they hoped, they try to keep their overtuned advantage.

Not become OP so that Knights are still better in group content and equal to Warriors in raid content ?
What some joke. Got you. Keep warriors down with some tiny toy upgrade, but don't touch the mitigation power between tank classes, which is the problem atm.
15 % proficiency would allow you to still do your job, while not stepping on warriors shoes on MT Raid Bosses.

Oh, the troll is back.
How it is to be booted from all the raid guilds you attended, because you are a crappy knight with crappy knowledge of playing your class and the game overall ?
Has the new knight stance allowed you to play your class better because you were so terrible at playing it ? Or you still suck ?
I would go for the second one

Cries about name calling and people being trolls...class act.

Maybe go work on fixing your one trick pony class without calling for other classes to be nerfed.

Warriors are supposed to be the masters of weapons, yet their use of those weapons is pretty unimpressive. A true warrior would be able to cripple, slow, stun, and snare their opponents just as well as anyone. At least these things kind of make sense to me and they're related to the description and make up of the class. If self healing is something warriors really want, I'd like to think that it would be limited to out of combat use and tied to a huge increase to bind wound or something, enough that it beats ooc regen by a good amount.

It's been a *long* while since I've seen dps parses of all three tanks under the same situations, but I'd hope warrior melee dps, burn and sustained, beats both of the knights' melee dps hands down. Only by adding their spells to the picture should knights be able to balance this.

I really imagine that defensive stances are going to be a nightmare to tune around. I'm sorry, but none of the tanks should constantly have that much going for them all of the time. I can't speak for raid content anymore, but group content with a shield equipped is a joke. Yeah, I do have a couple pieces of raid gear, but most of it is group gear now and some of the raid is as old as RoF. I really enjoyed UF, but we all know that it was a terrible expansion that drove a lot of players away. If the next expansion is going to be tuned where it is remotely challenging for a tank with a shield equipped, it will have to be a hell of a lot tougher than prenerf undead were in UF and I just don't think that will be healthy at all for the fragments of us left playing.

SKs are not Paladins. DPS is not an 'extra' to the class, but what the class is. Paladins whom want to tie SKs to them are mindboggling.

About as mind boggling as knights that want to tie their mitigation levels to warriors'.