New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Time Burner 2, Feb 18, 2016.

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  1. Kamea Augur

    This is a silly line of argument. You're arguing that warriors being able to get SK epic from another player is almost as good as having it ourselves.... Don't you see the problem there?

    I find it funny how knights are so used to having self healing on tap that they can't even fathom any possible situation where healing is > mitigation (yes, there are plenty of them.) You guys truly know what it's like to take minor spell damage while strong discs are running for 15-20s and have the slowest death ever because no one else heals you, and the extremely overpowered Warlord's Resurgence isn't enough of a mend.

    The best survival is a blend of all survival abilities. Knights just see the downside of healing, they can't think of any situation where it's better.

    Only in EverQuest is written in law that warriors should have extremely minimal impact on their own healing. In reality, warriors should have strong mend abilities (on cooldown), heal effectiveness buffs that was in the same arena of paladins like it originally did in 2006, and weapon healing that rivals SKs (weapon healing is actually common to warriors, or the warrior-like class, in other RPGs.) In EQ, they say "well, paladins heal so heal effectiveness buffs should benefit them the most", and, "well, SKs lifetap so weapon healing should be their arena." Heal effectiveness buffs aren't heals. Weapon heals aren't lifetaps. This false pigeonholing seems outright idiotic in a world where warrior mitigation abilities and weapon mastery (which 'supposedly' was our specialty) is outright farmed to knights on tap.
  2. shiftie Augur

    Warriors are supposed to be the easiest to heal. Making them the prime choice for boss tanking. I've even said in this thread that if you want an always on buff it should be different things besides raw mitigation. Always on 100% to incoming heals balances the archetype better than giving out such a huge mitigation advantage. That in itself leads to all three tanks capable but warriors being the easiest to keep alive.

    Couple that with other tweaks and you're on the right track. What is in place now is a zero sum situation. Either it is shared in some relative capacity it it needs removed all together.
  3. shiftie Augur

    You said warriors have nothing. If you want an honest discussion you should try to stop making things up and living out your life in hyperbole.
  4. Xanathol Augur

    You just sit there quietly ducking the nerf bat!

    Kamea.. just lol.
  5. Ravengloome Augur


    Halflings are stealthy after all.
  6. Kamea Augur

    My problem with heal effectiveness buffs is that back in the day, our's were in the same arena as paladins, but for whatever reason they decided to keep buffing paladins' while keeping the % on our's the same.

    Heal effectiveness buffs are -not- heals, they are -not- a priest archetypal ability, I don't see any reason why they should be different for warrior or paladins, certainly not the massive gap that exists today.

    With melee and spell damage: if you consider who has the most damage capability and who has the strongest buffs/aDPS for melee and/or spell damage, you'll see they're clearly categorized differently. However, with paladins and heal effectiveness buffs, they seem to categorize them together a paladin lore appropriate ability, thus can't justify boosting warriors heal effectiveness buffs, despite the fact we've had these for more than a decade.

    I just find it funny because the warrior class in most RPGs has strong heal effectiveness buffs and strong shield (in EQ, that'd be runes) abilities. Since they don't categorize damage boosts as DPSer archetypal abilities, I don't see why they categorize healing boosts as priest(ish) archetypal abilities.

    Despite Xanathol's nonsensical "heals don't matter compared to mitigaiton" musings, heals do matter, and most RPGs fix it for warriors by allowing them to boost other heals as giving warrior comparable self healing wouldn't be lore appropriate.
  7. Xanathol Augur

    Reading is fundamental - I never stated that.
  8. Makavien Augur

    Avoidance >mitigation > hp and will always be this way for all tanks .Dexterity has the same effect when tanking raid bosses as agility does atm I take the same if not less than all the other tanks in my guild stacking agility which is all of them . Sucks to be told hey your choice to go avoidance 4 years ago really does not equal avoidance.
  9. Lenowill Augur


    The RPG generation(s) that EQ's core systems are based upon did not follow that formula.

    EQ warriors have pretty much always been the non-magic-using fighter, thrust into a world that's absolutely teeming with magic. In the early days this made being a warrior suck (a lot) if you weren't in a party, since your only self-healing option was low-fantasy bandaging.

    The story with the EQ1 warrior is pretty much that their natural, non-magical approach to things makes them some of the best at dealing with the direst of practical combat problems, which in turn also makes them a great candidate for wearing the Super Awesome Legendary Armor +10 and putting it to ideal use. They've put all of their focus into their martial abilities and leave the sorting of the magical bits to the hybrids, priests, and casters.

    Personally, I've got to say that the less spell-like any additions to the warrior class can be, the better. Pulling more from the bardic direction of things by creating more battlecry-based temporary buffs for the group would be one option; another would be adding more martial abilities (especially ones that require the use of specific weapon types to execute and share timers with each other in ways that require the warrior to make interesting decisions).

    Personally, I feel like warriors would be in a pretty good place as long as their profile looks something like, "The best physical mitigation in the game by at least a small margin, high sustained damage for a tank, and good flexibility for dealing burst damage when it's needed."

    That said, I don't really have a dog in this race, and have only played the three classes under discussion up to the 80s range.
  10. Ravengloome Augur


    Warriors could use some lore appropriate meaningful abilities and that could be accomplished (and still being utility/useful) without it being "spell like".

    A natural commander and battle tactician naturally makes those around them better

    I totally agree with the battlecry idea, i always found it odd the berzerkers battlecry always seemed more warrior like to me

    The new bard ability rallying call seems obviously like something a warrior should do

    Hold the Line should have been a Group ability

    Commanding voice could use a meaningful upgrade

    Champions Aura needs a similar upgrade
  11. Mistatk Augur

    I did not make anything up. I should have made my statement more accurate, by saying warriors don't have any spell defense that is worth a damn. Where as paladins have cureing of dots, through both spells and AA's, as well as self healing, to offset spell damage.

    Let me break it down one step further:

    Group gets DoT on them, warrior can do nothing at all.

    Paladin can cure, not only himself, but his whole group. And can heal himself and others.

    See how no matter how you spin it, those 2 are not the same thing?
  12. shiftie Augur

    And when a group gets feared a paladin can only protect himself whereas a warrior can protect his group

    This game is fun.
  13. Mistatk Augur

    Really? thats all you got? that lasts 1min and can only be used every 20 mintues. How often can paladins cast a heal spell?

    And how often is fear even a mechanic, but then warriors run in and save their group using that. Horrible comparison for healing/curing of paladins. horrible.

    also, it gives no buff or indication its been cast, or others have cast it on you. really annoying. not like being part cleric at all.
  14. RadarX Augur

    This one ran it's course a pretty long time ago so we're going to go ahead and close it.
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