Lockjaw rotation shattered by Faceless - Full FFA time begins?

I had no issues with MM prior to yesterday and even stuck up for them in the past. If you see bias from me towards MM it's entirely the result of their actions against my guild yesterday and Gulfein's unapologetic attitude when I contacted him. MM deserves every bit of the hate they are getting.

It's a large part of why the people that like me, really like me - and the people that don't really tend not to. I'm used to it.

You know. I have zero doubt that you and the other guild leaders will receive an apology when the rotation members fix what they have broken. I know that Faceless is at the root of this problem, but as I said there were responsibilities that belonged to every guild leader and instead of keeping them there was an appalling lack of action and caring to protect the rotation and uphold it's rules. Until you learn to view it from a point of view as a guild leader who holds responsibilities of your word to EVERY other guild leader to uphold the rotation then you will not understand why it is that Faceless is the true culprit. Though I will add something. I am sorry that your guild's Inny was killed as a result of this mess. Though nothing good will come of it while following the current course of actions. Dima has already offered to repay the mob as well as gave an offer that reverts all of the rule breaches. The actions to be taken now just got a hell of a lot easier.
Edit: Before you say it. A guild leader can be a part of a rotation and uphold it properly and still do what's best for their guild. Though failing to uphold the rotation in fact harms everyone's guilds in the long run cause it causes these situations.

You're right, that's probably why he makes himself the center of the issue. Though that doesn't obscure the fact that there is/was an issue.

Why should he apologize? He feels forced, you feel hes out of line. Both are right. Why are your feelings greater than his?

The sheer fact that you have no problems prior to yesterday causes me concern. You allow an obvious breach by FI of the rotation (The efreeti removal, which is 3 mobs btw if you are unaware, with quest items that make the BEST items in Classic, and weapons nonetheless. It was a breach, I'm not a guild leader and even I can see that), but to hell with that right? Killing Innoruuk is so much of a greater crime, whereas not one of his items are best in slot for any class in classic.

Both are VERY wrong, but you only care about what directly effected you - Which sounds like part of what MM has a problem with in the rotation. Guilds not caring about the rules and only worrying about their mobs. While it may sound as if I'm defending MM - that's not my intention. Simply pointing out where it seems both sides are coming from, and making note that you are only severely judging one side and turning face to the other. And you really are.

Well. Dima has probably more experience in these issues than most. The simple fact is that I trust that he knows what he's doing and frankly I probably would pick the same choice and he has our support. Though I'm not doing this because I want to. I'm forced to do this. I want my rotation. I want to spend time with my guild laughing joking and killing mobs. I don't want to wake up to fight a mob at night, and I don't want to be in a constant fight with other guilds. If the guild leaders within the rotation aren't going to punish Faceless along with MM for this event and revert the changes then there is no point in the rotation.

I'm sorry but you deserved a like for that post cause you're so liked. Though I do find you're rather clear headed and cogent.

Dima's best bet is to have a guild willing to speak for him to get through to Darth. Those two hate each other enough to where they'd probably need a mediator to speak on both of their behalf otherwise they will most likely just argue.

Just saying now I am totally not doing it, this is as involved as I get in this drama.

While I may have quoted you Almar, this is a general pondering, not aimed at you directly.


It's amusing that people think there is a debate to be had. The decision was made before this thread was posted. There's no discussion here, that takes place between the rotation guild leaders.

The very first post clearly states what needs to happen, failure to do so results in said consequences. There's no counter-proposal or meeting.

The judge and jury have issued a sentence, you have no choice but to accept it.

Dear Modest Men,
You claim that that a rotation must be protected by all or it will be honored by none!
I ask, where were YOU when you saw Faceless killing Efreeti's that by your rotation belonged to another guild?

You claim you were not informed of the change to Efreeti until a week AFTER the change was made!
Yet every chat log your Leader posts, he certainly does not seem surprised that his precious Efreeti is no longer part of the rotation.

You claim that you fight for the rights of small guilds.
Or is that just before small guilds want to join the rotation that coincidently always vote with you. It certainly doesn't apply when 1 guild kills 1 mob out of rotation and you decide the best course of action is to then kill another smaller guilds rotation target while they sleep!

You claim that everything bad that has happened is a result of not following the agreed rotation rules.
As mentioned above what was your response to a guild (supposedly) Breaking rotation. Rather than following the rotation rules and trying to resolve the issue with the other guilds on the server you instead say outright you no longer recognize any rotation at all and begin killing other people's rotation mobs!!

You're right, Faceless Insanity did NOT act the way they should have in this matter. However, every guild but you and your allies (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here by saying Allies instead of ALTS) agreed that Efreeti would no longer be part of the rotation. so whether that agreement was made 3 to 1 (those guilds ON the Efreeti Rotation), 7 to 1 (or whatever the actual results were after the meeting you were omitted from, or 7 to 5 counting yourself and any "allies" you may have sway over... the end result is still the same.

The end result is as follows

1. A Meeting was held without all participants and Efreeti was removed from Rotation and placed on FFA.

2. Faceless/Other Guilds did not IMMEDIATELY tell Modest Men of the result of this meeting

3. Faceless began killing every Efreeti as part of the FFA Status.

4. Your Guild SAW those kills and decided to do nothing rather than bring it up that Faceless was breaking rotation

5. At some point your guild became well aware that Efreeti was no longer part of rotation.

6. In a meeting in the leader channel your guild leader repeatedly asked/stated concern about Faceless killing your "Rotation Targets" you were again repeatedly informed Efreeti was NOT on rotation. Rather than addressing these statements by actually trying to resolve a disagreement with your guild and EVERY OTHER GUILD IN THAT CHAT, you stated that you did not recognize that change and proceeded to only state that if Faceless killed anything that you considered to be your rotation target, that you would abolish the entire rotation!

7. Your guild "Traded" a future Vox kill that you KNEW would occur after Faceless Killed what you believed to be "Your" Efreeti with another guild to get in a free Vox kill BEFORE your actions would bring about the end of the rotation thereby supposedly removing your responsibility to provide them with that Vox Kill!
8. When Faceless Killed the FFA Efreeti (As recognized by all those guilds EXCEPT YOU) that you claimed to be yours.. it is ONLY THEN that you had a problem with them (As you consider it) Breaking Rotation.

9. YOUR RESPONSE WAS NOT TO CALL A MEETING TO DETERMINE HOW FACELESS SHOULD BE PUNISHED FOR BREAKING ROTATION. YOUR RESPONSE WAS TO TEAR DOWN THE ROTATION SPREADSHEET AND START TOTAL FFA!


As I revew those... 1 is on Faceless... 2 is on Faceless and the other guilds in attendance, 3 is just a statement of fact, with no wrong doing after the results of 1. NOW... 4, and 6-9 however are ALL FAILURES in how Modest Men Responded to the situation!

Explain to everyone why we should think you're the one in the right about all this and we should all come to you and follow your rule... <EXTREME SARCASM ON> OH Great Dima, God of the Server, Ruler of all that Is Just, Fair, and Modest????

Going to point out the obvious here..

You find it amusing that people think there is a debate to be had,
when Dupre/Darth essentially started this thread on this forum.

"There's no discussion here, that takes place between the rotation guild leaders."
If they are invited to the conversation and agree with certain viewpoints, right?

The judge and jury have issued a sentence, you have no choice but to accept it.
Obviously not, you as well as everyone else have read the responses in this thread.

Not to mention that you're totally our alt anyways. Seriously who's ever heard of Almar? Sorry I couldn't resist the joke. Maybe Bandok though? As of this moment Bandok is the only other guild that is in the same boat about this meeting. He also is the only one leader who has posted here that has actually addressed the real issue instead of side stepping it over and over. The terms he suggested were equally harsh in both TL and MM's direction and he also goes on to mention the changes to the rotation being what they are, a breach by TL ignored by other members of the rotation. I know that I have been harsh towards other guild leaders, but I know what my place in this rotation would be if I was a leader and what needs to be done to uphold it. I haven't seen even the slightest semblance of this occurring though.

I don't think it's so black and white. One guild going against the entire rotation is not in the entire server's best interest they are obviously not going to accept the original terms, Dima already proposed counter terms which they most likely will obviously not accept as well.

If they don't talk it out this issue will NEVER be fixed. They NEED to talk and not amongst us on these forums. They need to hash this out in real time not playing forum tag.

Lets hope they do it otherwise the whole server is going to suffer

You've been up too long cause you called Faceless TL. Had to quote it before someone else catches your mistake and sarcastically points it out!

Haha, nice catch.

I'll give you a short version. A meeting that did not follow the proper rules can not be a voting meeting and those rules being applied were a breach. The rotation as it was agreed upon still involved Efreeti. Faceless then broke the rotation by killing the efreeti (second breach technically). I don't care what you say and no one else here does. That meeting is nothing but hearsay and holds no bearing according to the rules of the rotation. It would be a hell of a lot easier to sell that fact if Darth hadn't blabbed an entire chat log admitting to it all.

I quoted this part of your post because I was so oblivious that I totally didn't think about that part.

For those that say I only side with Dima, if that was true I wouldn't have quoted this obvious overstep in my logic.

You made a very good point Mr Great Pink Ogre.

I don't know... I expect Faceless would be quite agreeable to that arrangement if presented... Punish TL and MM...

About us seeing the kills? Last I remember according to the rotation chart the meeting happened before AD's Efreeti spawned. I feel like I remember seeing an AD signature that it was killed or was I mistaken. The first efreeti that Faceless killed was FFA according to the rotation. I do not believe he has a point in this case.

Bear in mind that Efreeti doesn't give a serverwide and it's circumstantial at best to think that they were informed. I don't think it would be up to MM to follow FI around, especially when if you REALLY look at the kill counts lately, even before the recent 24hrs when "rotation broke", faceless has been getting a great deal of permission to kill a lot more mobs from guilds. Odd, that.