Snyderverse-an unpopular opinion

Dude I hear you. I got them same toys and watched those cartoons when I was a kid. I’ve been wanting to see a Superman and a Batman film deliver a Superman and Batman I’ve known since I was a kid andZack finally gave us that. As much as I like street level Batman you want to see the version of Batman that is relevant in a Justice League movie and a Superman that is consistent with comics both of which Zack delivered on in my opinion. My hope is that WB can get their act together and quit sabotaging themselves.

Marvel doesn’t divide because they make comedies for kids. Shrek doesn’t divide people either because in a movie like that you’re just glad your hero won and you got some laughs. Avengers has an alien attack on New York and apparently no one dies in the entire encounter and the movie ends with them all eating swarma and the audience laughing. Man of Steel ends with an alien attack in Metropolis and the city is dust as a result and you know thousands of people died, that evokes a different emotional response in the audience and that response is going to cause division because a lot of people don’t want emotional journeys in films, they just want pretty colors and laughs. There ain’t nothing wrong with seeing pretty colors and laughing in a movie, but sometimes you want more. The layered DC movies means I rewatch them more often than I do Marvel because most jokes are not funny a second time around, but a movie that has deeper meanings and great visual action is more interesting to watch again.

The saddest thing is to watch the BvS that they currently offer on network television BUT the ULTIMATE EDITION is

SO.

MUCH.

BETTER.

than the first one.

The ULTIMATE EDITION Batman Versus Superman shows Detective Clark Kent - doing INVESTIGATIVE work. Shows an EXPANDED funeral scene.















I'm getting the impression over time that a small subset of DC / WB Media just don't care about their product BUT find it easier to throw Zach Snyder under the bus and it saddens me.

Concerned about "Movie Length?" Evidently NOT - being that the NEW Batman movie is approximately 2:56 min long.

The ULTIMATE EDITION of BvS is only 3:02 min long.

Just inexplicable that BvS Ultimate Edition was tossed aside and they STILL show the older contraption on the networks.

No, I haven't watched either version of Justice League. After BvS and Man of Steel I was pretty much done with Snyder-directed or influenced DC films (including their first attempt at Suicide Squad). Normally I can be pretty forgiving on a film and nine times out of ten when I go to see a film in theaters it's bound to end up in my movie library.

BvS was that tenth time/film. It's not in my library and won't be, even though Man of Steel is. Heck, Ryan Reynolds' Green Lantern is in my movie library. LOL

And I did not say it was devoid of color. I said the films of his I had seen had been desaturated of color. He seems to use a filter in his filmmaking that tones down the actual colors of what he photographs/films and applies it to every scene in the film. So even if there's color it's toned down. You can see that easiest in behind-the-scenes photos of Cavill in his Superman outfit and comparing it to how the outfit looks on screen. There's probably also a decent comparsion to be made in how Aquaman looks in Snyder's films versus how he looked in his solo film.

As a result, everything in what he films seems at the very least toned WAY down, if not muted and drab. Not colorless, just muted. And the atmosphere that creates in a film isn't appropriate for all characters and themes. It's awesome for Batman and harsh environments like Gotham at night. It doesn't work nearly as well for Metropolis and a character that is supposed to arguably be the embodiment of hope for his respective universe.

And speaking of that...

No, Zach Snyder is divisive as a filmmaker (DC films in particular) because he made a film about a character that is supposed to inspire hope (remember, it was all over all the teasers and trailers leading up to MoS) and delivered a character who was less than hopeful and not exactly inspiring.

Earlier you mentioned keeping James Gunn around to make more DC films, and I have no argument against that. Between the Guardians films and the success of his Suicide Squad movie, plus the writing he contributed to another super hero comedy back in the day (The Specials, well worth searching out and watching, great film) he's proven that he gets the genre. I also have no problems with the work Kevin Fiege has put in on the Marvel films because, again, he gets it.

I don't think Snyder does. I don't expect one-to-one translations of media from different formats because adjustments always have to be made. What works on the printed page won't always translate to the small or big screen. It's one of the reasons why all the versions of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (book, films, TV shows, radio drama) vary so much from one another. But the person making the project should at least have a grasp of what it is that makes the original work tick. If they do have that grasp, the film (or whatever the project) will remain true to the core of the original work, even if adjustments are made in translation.

From what I understand, Snyder's background in comics isn't based on the traditional comics or even TV shows the vast majority of fans grew up on. He may have been more influenced by stuff from Heavy Metal or the works of Frazetta. Watchmen may have clicked for him because he may have thought that's what all comics should be like. But again, that doesn't work for everything in comics, especially since Watchmen was skewering the traditional comics of old pretty heavily.

Snyder is a talented filmmaker. But from what I've seen, he was never the right man for the job because I don't think he gets it. And if you don't get the core of the project you're working on, your work will most likely end up being pretty divisive. That has nothing to do with the corporations involved, just the filmmaker.

Oh, you had to go and mention Shrek not being divisive.

Here's the thing, and it's probably going to be considered heresy by some out there: I've never really liked Shrek or any of the other films in that series. Part of it was probably being in the wrong headspace at the time (hard to enjoy a film about love when you're still smarting from a break-up with your red-haired girlfriend LOL), but the Shrek films (and a lot of the stuff that came out of Dreamworks Animation) just seemed like they were trying too hard. So for me, yeah, it's a divisive film. LOL

But that's enough of that tangent. I'll circle back to the other stuff later.

A bit to unpack here but I'll try to answer you line for line:

Have you watched the Ultimate Edition of Batman Versus Superman? You're doing yourself a disservice if you don't. I've already posted here in this thread several of those clips and they do - in fact - help to flesh out the original movie.

If you can get by your built-in bias against Zach Snyder I'd highly recommend you watch that ULTIMATE edition of BvS.

Regarding Ryan Reynold's Green Lantern - I find it funny that this movie is in your library - in that I thought (and still do) that Ryan Reynolds was more suited to be THIS GL



The rough-and-tumble-non-politically correct Incomparable Guy Gardner GL....the one that both Hal Jordan AND John Stewart declined AGAINST voting into the Young Justice version of the Justice League when it came to deciding on new members.

My memory of Hal Jordan is more of the serious-by-the-book type, as displayed here



....not the Jokester that is prevalent in his Green Lantern movie from 2011. I "DO" love Ryan Reynolds, though - and my hope is that Zach Snyder can remake his image if he is in fact still the Hal Jordan GL going forward (which I hope he IS).

In regards of the "Devoid of Color" issue - I can agree with you to THAT extent - and I hope that James Gunn can help Zach Snyder in THAT REGARD only. If James Gunn is coming in to make The Justice League the BUFFOONISH Guardians of The Galaxy then DC / WB will lose me as a fan - and I am certain MANY others.

Justice League is NOT the "Assguardians of The Galaxy" as they have ALWAYS been and will be forever - especially with the Drunken Thunder God taking up refuge with them.

GoTG were a clown offshoot in the comics and it's translated well onto the Big Screen. We ALL need a laugh now and then, don't we



Leave it to Disney / Marvel Cinematic Universe to make Drunkiness a cool thing - especially if you're a Comic Book Thunder God.

Regarding your "Hope" comment in reference to Superman....











That pretty much sums up my answer. I "am" open JUST A SMIDGEN to James Gunn EVER SO SLIGHTLY altering Superman's / Henry Cavill's persona but it NEEDS to stay true to CURRENT TIMES.

This is a trying time - MODERN TIME - that we're living in and while I can agree that Comic Book movies are supposed to be a break from reality you MUST understand that these SAME CHARACTERS must be planted in TODAY'S TIMES..........

If they weren't then you wouldn't have had Captain America sitting around the group in the Endgame movie giving his personal testimony of loss - and in turn rightfully listening AND ACCEPTING everyone else's testimony



AGAIN - rooted in MODERN times.

I've already discussed with you, Will, about DC's Humble Beginnings in the StAS - especially with the Apokolips invasion and what Darkseid did to Dan Turpin and what Dan Turpin represented.



Dan Turpin was a Police Detective and LOVED by EVERYONE. He befriended and trusted Superman early on in that series and in turn allowed the public to trust Superman more in that series.

He was a tough no-nonsense kind of leader but a FAIR and respected one.

Dan Turpin represented the BEST that America and the WORLD had to offer....he represented the Can-Do spirit and determination of Americans and well-meaning human beings in society.

Darkseid recognized this as crucial in his choice to vaporize him - thus sending a message to the world and Superman as well. This conflict would go on and span 20-30 years in the Comics and in the JLU and other animated offerings that DC presented.

THIS is what Zach Snyder is TRYING to recreate - not so much with another Dan Turpin but with Lois Lane perhaps.

One MUST understand that DC is NOT Marvel. It is oftentimes a darker and more mature background and themes. Don't believe me? Look no further than the FIRST interaction EVER between Superman and Batman:



LOOK at the GRITTY background....the course language and themes. It passed THEN - back in the late 80s and 90s - and no one seemingly batted an eyelash and NEITHER did they bat an eyelash at Darkseid murdering Dan Turpin.

ONLY now seemingly must our On-Screen Superheroes "Relate" to us and make us feel good. It is a false pretense for them to do this every single time.

If Fat Thor gets a pass



...then by golly sometimes-brooding Superman should, too.



Love ya, Henry Cavill.

And for crying out loud PLEASE don't shove Calvin Ellis Superman down our throats. If I want a Black Superman on the Big Screen I'd rather see ICON

And for CRYING OUT LOUD don't tell me that "Well, Icon is not well-known.....Icon doesn't fit into the story line".

Dwayne McDuffie (RIP), Paul Dini and Co. MADE John Stewart and Hawk Girl FIT in Justice League and Justice League Unlimited.



I'd guess that behind the scenes some resented leaving Hal Jordan AND Hawk MAN out but the need for modernization WAS / IS - real.

Besides, Ol' Stick-in-the-mud Hal DID make an appearance later on, in the classic Once and Future Thing parts 1 and 2



They saw the need for Modern Justice League Team that was a better reflection of society and they made it WORK. They deviated from the norm.

And these character's UNIQUENESS made them standout - just like a character like ICON would stand out in Zach Snyder's Justice League.

Ha ha oh man that is controversial. For me the interesting thing about the Snyder films and the release of both Whedon’s and Snyder’s Justice League is that we get two versions of the same film. Whedon actually addresses most of your complaints and others in his version. Whedon’s version is shorter, much more color saturated, “funnier” and almost no death. He Marvelized the movie and you can compare the two versions to see which one was better. I guess a lot of the fight for the Snyder versions are because they are more adult theme driven. Like Star Wars was originally tonally a movie for adults that kids could watch, Empire Strikes Back being apex of that tone. Toy sales started driving direction by being more profitable than the actual movies we started getting Ewoks and so on. Only until the Mandalorin did we start getting the adult tone back. So there is definitely an audience for that type of Superhero film and a fear of losing that type of story for the sake of toys or eye candy.

That Green Arrow / Green Lantern panel I posted above is supposedly the FIRST time COMICS went WOKE lol - and that comic was from the 1970s, Green Lantern #76.

https://www.vulture.com/2018/04/green-lantern-green-arrow-76-woke-superheroes.html





Green Arrow was a LEFTY - as displayed in that panel AND he even mentions it SEVERAL times during the Justice League Unlimited series.

Batman AND John Stewart GL HEAVILY recruited him because they wanted him to be the CONSCIOUSNESS of the League.

I'd love to see him in Zach Snyder's Justice League eventually - along with Wayne T. Carr's GL, WW, Aquaman Flash and of course the others.

*rubs hands together* Okay, let's begin.

As a note on BvS, Ultimate edition or regular, why would I subject myself to watching an extended version film I didn't like in the first place? I've heard of what was added to the Ultimate edition and it doesn't fix the problems I had with the theatrical version. So what would be the point?

Honestly I find it funny that I still have Reynolds' GL film in my library as well. LOL The film isn't great and has many problems, and it deserves a lot (if not all) of the crap that gets thrown at it. But for whatever reason, I wanted it in the library. Same can't be said for BvS, unfortunately.

I don't see James Gunn doing a JL film because I don't see it fitting his style unless they were doing something like the humorous take done with Booster Gold and Blue Beetle on the JLI team. And I don't see him being able to bring Snyder around from his muted/desaturated aesthetic because it's kind of his thing. 300 and Watchmen kind of back that up, and I don't see him changing his ways any time soon.

Ah yes, glad that you brought up Cap from the Marvel films. Take a look at how Chris Evans played Steve Rogers/Cap over all his films, and then take a look at how Christopher Reeve played Superman. There's a better than decent chance you'll find a lot of similarities, and even if one doesn't it still goes to show that you can pull off the "boy scout/good guy/symbol of hope" archetype even in this modern and complicated age.

Evans pulled it off REALLY well. I have trouble seeing if Cavill even tried. He didn't have to copy either Chris (Evans or Reeve) but what he did put up on screen wasn't someone I'd consider to be an inspiration. Whether that's due to the scripts, his own possible limitations as an actor or the direction he was give (or any combination of those factors) is up for debate.

You mentioned/showed earlier growing up on stuff like the Super Powers figures (had quite a few of them myself, never managed to get the really cool ones I wanted though LOL) and I'm right there with you. Side note: Challenge of the Super-Friends was the best, and I'll fight anyone who disagrees. But in those shows, as well as in films and other media, Superman's appearance on the scene was usually greeted with a relieved "Superman!" by someone on hand. I never got that feeling from Cavill's performance.

Oh as for the "dark Superman" from Superman 3? Temporary part of the film, and defeated by Clark Kent. Not the whole character throughout the entire film. Not exactly the best example.

As for the animated stuff? I think you're cherry-picking. Looking at the whole, it wasn't all dark and grim and gritty. It was dark and grim and gritty when the situation called for it, like Superman first encountering Batman in Gotham City. They told serious stories, sure, but things got dark or light when it was appropriate.

Bro Thor (I can't help it, I love that that was the official name given for that version of Thor, it's even used on the Lego toys LOL) got a pass for me because it was part of his character arc through the movies. For lack of a better term, he earned it. I don't think Cavill earned his brooding Superman.

...

Dang it all, how the heck do you desaturate black and white, Snyder?!?!?! HOW?!?!?!

(couldn't resist with that last pic there, sorry )

Dang it all, I TOLD you I'd swing back around, but you didn't even give me a chance LOL Getting all impatient on me, kids these days, I swear,,,mumblegrumblemumble

If someone's looking at the Marvel films and only seeing the funny it's pretty easy to argue that they aren't looking at the whole picture.

Like how Stark's military escort was cut down right near the beginning of Iron Man. Or Tony failing to save his fellow prisoner in the terrorist cave. Or the number of soldiers (Allied forces and HYDRA) that were gunned down/vaporized in First Avenger. Or the death of Thor's mother in The Dark World. Or the prisoners killed by Ronan the Accuser in Guardians of the Galaxy. Or the pile of children's skeletons on Ego and Yondu's death in Volume 2. Or Agent Colson being run through by Loki. Or the death and destruction on Knowhere in Infinity War.

Or Thanos deleting half the population of the universe with a snap of his fingers and watching favorite characters dissolve into dust.

I could go on, but you get the picture. Death looms LARGE over the MCU. It's a huge motivating factor for many characters, the ultimate goal of some, and for others preventing more deaths is why they do what they do. Heck, it was the main motivating factor for Tom Holland's Spider-Man and his actions in the latest film.

They just don't dwell on it or wallow in it. And the funny bits? They help provide some relief from dealing with all the heavier stuff they do deal with in the film. There needs to be a release, otherwise the heavy just keeps beating you down.

Oh, and one of the big inspirations for Star Wars was old serials and series like Flash Gordon. You know, kids stuff shown along with the cartoons back in the day. I'm pretty sure that Commander Cody from Revenge of the Sith was at least named after (if not slightly inspired by) the Commando Cody serial series that got used in some earlier episodes of MST3K. Star Wars has always had kids as part of the audience. I don't think it would have taken hold so strongly if it hadn't been aimed at kids in some way.

As far as judging studios comparatively we are only on the Ironman 2 level of DC development if you are stopping at BvS. Which Ironman 2 also struggled in the box office but Marvel drove on. You’re comparing like Marvel’s 20 movie series to 4 DC films and the death in Marvel by comparison is very vanilla. Yes they had some heart felt moments but for the most part faceless Soldiers or prisoners dying doesn’t matter much to the audience, as the Joker in The Dark Knight points out. Heck the snap was meaningless since they all came back. But death alone doesn’t matter as much as does death add tone, emotion, or value to the film. You can’t tell me First Avenger in any scene holds up to Wonder Woman no mans land scene. The tone of a world war movie should be a little heavier just out of respect, not that First Avenger botched it or anything Marvel does a great job balancing action and comedy. I think the only film that really lost its story due to comedy was Deadpool 2, and I also think Gunn’s suicide squad movie suffered in the same way.

Honestly Avengers was a bad movie, it was good because it had hero’s we enjoyed all show up together and the characters didn’t need development because their previous movies did the work for them. The villains were pointless and their plan was dumb, which is in large part because they weren’t developed at all. It was great seeing all your favorite hero’s together but it didn’t tell much of a story. End game was also bad all the way up till Thanos arrived on earth. There are significant plot holes throughout and the most of the movie is just sort of flashbacks to older marvel movie scenes like a bad sitcom.

Yes, Star Wars was based off of a kids serials but tonally it was made as a western meets samurai movie. I mean Luke’s aunt and uncle get totally smoked along with a whole planet just in the first movie. If you watched the prequels as a kid then you don’t get it, because by then they were full fledge kiddy movies. And before you say Anakin killing kids was not for kids I agree but it just goes along with a long list of poor choices by Lucas in the prequels. That was Lucas going, I’m going to make this movie super dark but failing to match it with appropriate tone.

I saw you said you’ve still haven’t even seen any Justice League movie. I mean I’m really curious which version of it you like better. You have to admit Snyder makes great action scenes, but if you watch the Whedon version you’ll get Snyder’s action with the Marvel color and humor. Technically you should love it and honestly maybe you will like it more than the Snyder version. And honestly all I can say to that is “to each his own” and at least you know what you like.

Will -

At this point if I can't persuade you to at LEAST look at the Ultimate version of BvS then that's a wall I unfortunately can't break down.

Every other movie / character that you've mentioned in not only THIS thread but OTHERS I've seen - sometimes MANY TIMES.

I personally have NO WALLS up. You - do.

I watched Avengers - Infinity War and Avengers End Game just yesterday - for the UMPTEENTH time.

I've not restricted myself from either Marvel OR DC movies as far as watching OR critiquing them but I don't see the same reciprocated.

Now as for Captain America? OF COURSE Chris nailed Captain America. But Captain AMERICA is AMERICA's Beacon....he's a charismatic leader...the FIRST ONE in and the LAST one out.....the Super Soldier.

Henry Cavill? SUPERMAN? Well he has the WEIGHT OF THE WORLD - the UNIVERSE - ON HIS SHOULDERS. Of course he's going to carry that VERY SERIOUSLY....

Henry Cavill NAILS Superman.



Two different responsibilities, Will. Two VASTLY different responsibilities - one where Henry Cavill is CORRECT in NOT carrying lightly.

He is a Man-God that has LOST his OWN world....he's the LAST one alive of his kind (at least so far)....he DOESN'T FIT IN just about ANYWHERE he goes....

He's bullied as a young person....bullied as an Grown Man....the victim of a TERRORIST attach in BvS....one where if he HAD KNOWN it was going to happen he COULD HAVE STOPPED IT....

He HAS to SACRIFICE himself in BOTH the COMICS and in BvS to SAVE the WORLD........

The problem with "POP CULTURE" nowadays is that people want to LOVE and HOLD their Superheroes.....want to have lunch with them....want to "CHILL" with them.

Some Superheroes (and Heroines) are simply NOT MEANT TO CHILL WITH....especially when they have

SO.

MUCH.

RESPONSIBILITY.

And as for the ANIMATED clips I've posted? The most IMPORTANT one I've posted on here is Darkseid's murder of Dan Turpin. If you haven't read my comments on it and how that SINGULAR MOVE ALONE has helped to shape DC as far as Darkseid and the ongoing conflicts then you've completely missed my point.

"Hey Superman - I (Pop Culture) want to CHILL WITH YOU for a bit....can we hang out?"





So you STILL WANT ME TO HANG OUT WITH YOU??

AM.

I.

NOT.

BUSY?

I've said it before and will say it again -

ZACH.

YOU.

DO.

YOU!

Hey Will - you want "Warm and Fuzzy", lol?



There.

Beat out Avengers Endgame AND Spiderman - No Way Home.



Jus sayin'

You know what? Hat Tip to the Oscars for even providing such a category.

They recognize dedicated and excited Zach Snyder DC Fans - even if we're loud and boisterous sometimes (all the time, lol?)

So...that "World Engine" video I posted a few days ago.....was that a BRAINIAC SYMBOL on that Engine the moment it exploded??