Old Content too easy for High CR Players and Boring

EDIT: I have no idea why it quoted like that, apologies

Before the revamp I was an advocate of stat clamping.

After it, I don't care, and we honestly don't really need it. A lot of low cr run the event dlc anyway, which is stat clamped (upwards).

Useless discussion.

I'm not sure where the baseless assumption is. I'm saying that 'most' people don't want stat clamping, which is evidenced within the history of feedback every time even a hint of stat clamping has cropped up and been utterly rejected by the majority of the community.

I'm not summising that people have a secret agenda, it's the opposite I'm asserting that they have an outright agenda, it's not hidden, they want stat clamping and that's that.

- they want everyone to play content within a small window of progression
- they don't want anyone to be able to be powerful through progression to the point where the content is any easier than it originally was intended to be.
- they want this in order to preserve the original challenge and not trivialize the content.

That is what stat clamping is and that is their agenda; they're not hiding it.

Stat clamping is fundamentally not wanting people to progress, there is no progression within a stat clamped environment because you can only ever progress within the constraints of the designated window, it's the illusion of progression but there is no 'real progression'.

There's no way you can ever see or prove how far you've come because you're stuck within that clamped frame work irrespective of effort, work put in and time lapsed between content windows.

I'm also not creating a strawman, creating a strawman is the art of creating a fake argument to act like you've discredited the argument when you really haven't often an argument that isn't even remotely related to the topic at hand. I'm not doing that at all I'm actually just outright creating the argument against stat clamping.

I'm telling you what's wrong with stat clamping, I'm explaining to you that the majority of people are against it, I'm also explaining why this particular individual, who might be entitled to an opinion' is doing it from a position of misinformation and a lack of experience

- the person hasn't played the game since pre darkseids war factory according to the census

that's like someone trying to explain how plumbing works when they're not a plumber and lack any and all experience within which to put forth their knowledge and opinion. They haven't played the game post stat revamp and clearly have no idea what the game is even currently like, if anyone is therefore making assumptions it's the person I've been criticizing who is clearly misinformed and running an argument that is by all intents and purposes dated.

Effectively their feedback has no meaningful value because they aren't and haven't played the game for some time. Somehow expecting the community to put weight in that feedback, let alone the devs is absurd.

The game has clearly changed since the person last played anyway.

When you've got the likes of people still struggling in US and ZOO which are a year old plus now, how is old content being trivialized, what because we say to people you can trivialize content older than that? When is it ok to be able to power through content and see that meaningful progression?

Have you tried to go in and solo FOS since stat revamp, now it's easy but it's certainly no where near as easy as it once was in this game.

This is the thing, people that talk about stat clamp often just want the extreme, they've already been given a compromise, but it's never good enough.

The Strawman is this:
- they want everyone to play content within a small window of progression
- they don't want anyone to be able to be powerful through progression to the point where the content is any easier than it originally was intended to be.
- they want this in order to preserve the original challenge and not trivialize the content.

Noone is saying that. Everytime, Everytime it is brought up it is as an option in the OP. Everything you just wrote only rings true if the person wants stat-clamping without any option which has never been seriously requested. You have formed an opinion which was not stated by the person you are disagreeing with (in most cases i'm sure some probably have said that) so you can attack that opinion (no progression) rather than arguing directly against the suggestion. Strawman.

EDIT: Stat-clamp advocates definitely haven't thought everything through, BumblingB along with a few others have pointed to things like implementation, work-load, mark discrepancy. These are all valid arguments against clamping. Your argument hinges on something that was not said, but baselessly assumed

I always argue from the point of mandatory stat clamping and I'll tell you the reason why I do.

- I'm not opposed to "optional clamping" if the developers want to develop optional clamping then go for gold, I think they're not going too though because of the resources required in doing so. This leads to them considering it on a mandatory level if they were to do it, which I would oppose and hence why I often argue from that platform.

- If optional stat clamping was implemented and you'll say this is an assumption, which you're entitled to do but I'm 100% confident short of offering an incentive to do so people simply aren't going to run it anywhere near as much as the advocates would argue.

Notwithstanding that point you're also then splitting your player base across two different instance types, increasing queue times.

Once all this happens and the 'stat clamp advocates' still don't have people playing with them, they'll come back and moan again and ask for it to be forced.

Now that might be an 'assumption' but it's not an unreasonable or illogical one. I hope that clarifies my position

Also that isn't a strawman - that's exactly how "stat clamping" functions, if you believe it's not then feel free to enlighten me, what is stat clamping if not that.

Just because you make assumptions based on personal opinion that doesn't change the definition of a strawman. By not arguing against what was said you are strawmanning the arguement, there really isn't anymore to it than that, and you just admitted above that you specifically ignore what was said by the OP to make your own interpretation. Strawman.

Also
-I find it unlikely that mandatory stat-clamping is more likely for the devs, I doubt the work load to make it non-mandatory would be as big as you presume

-We are not discussing the merits of stat-clamping at this moment, but have never assumed the amount people would utilise stat-clamped content. I really don't know, I've never tried to pretend it would be the most utilised or popular addition. But in a perfect world where money and resources were not an issue. I don't see why not. Splitting que times etc, all just rehashed points you don't need to do for me i've been through the arguments already, as I stated, I am not advocating for it anymore.

There is no hard and fast definition, just whatever works for each game. If you have some doomsday fear of stat-clamping and get offended anytime someone mentions it that's on you.

Also bulling is an apt a descriptor as mooching

LOL: cant say re h ashed, it translated to 'new'

No, hang on you're insinuating it's a strawman by implying that stat clamping is not what I'm saying it is and therefore not being asked for.

Put mandatory or optional aside for a moment, answer the question, if stat clamping isn't what I said it was then what is it.

No, i'm telling you it is a strawman not insinuating. I am being open and direct.

I do not need to put anything aside. I have already answered your question and I have already said what the nebulous term stat-clamping is, if you don't like the answer, again, that is on you.

No you haven't answered at all and now you're deflecting and avoiding answering the question.

Explain to me what your view of stat clamping is, what is it, how does it work, how does it function, how would it function within DCUO.

Don't just say there is no 'hard and fast definition' that is avoiding the question and topic and you know it lol

Believe what you want. I have re-read my posts and am happy I have answered you sufficiently but I will elaborate for you.

You misunderstood or misinterpreted my basis for calling your argument a strawman.

What you wrote is not why I called your argument a strawman. I explained why it was a strawman two posts ago, showing how you yourself openly admitted to strawmanning in your post.

There is no hard and fast definition is an answer just not the one you wanted, the one that would allow you to elaborate in an attempt to turn the argument on its head. But it is the truth, no game does it the same. Heck even the term stat-clamping is as i said, nebulous due to how wildly it is applied regardless of the original intent or meaning.

My definition would vary instance to instance and would be completely situational, the details of which I do not care to type out in its entirety right now just to entertain your pedantry.

Haha so you're seemingly attempting to suggest I'm creating a strawman while ignoring the entire strawman you yourself are creating. Do yourself a favor when you enter an argument be better prepared to discuss the topic at hand or just avoid the discussion entirely.

You're coming at me through emotion rather (evidenced by the little snide remarks here and there) than factual or rational dialogue. I'm explaining my position and debating my points and you're simply avoiding them when confronted, hiding behind "oh you just don't like the answer' or 'there is no real definition'.

Yes there is a definition to stat clamping, there is also a philosophy and idea behind it, something you're either not prepared or not equipped to discuss, even though it's the very point of this discussion thread.

You suggested or in your words "outright told" me I was creating a strawman and quoted the following

You said my strawman was the definition I placed upon stat clamping, I explained the rational behind why I argue from the point of view of "mandatory stat clamping" and acknowledged an element of assumption that forms that platform but explained the rational behind those assumptions which are founded in logic. I haven't admitted to strawmanning, I've admitted to making a few assumptions.

You on the other hand are blatantly avoiding the question or the discussion when challenged, if you want to enter a discussion then enter the discussion don't put your foot in then attempt to run away when the dialogue requires you to put in a bit more thought than just "oh there's no real definition, vague vague vague, it's all different for different games, vague vague vague.

I've explained above what stat clamping is, so please feel free to enlighten me, I'll ask again.

If stat clamping isn't what I said it was then what is it and based on what you define stat clamping as, how do you anticipate it'l fit within DCUO mandatory or optional.

You are corrupt. I already posted that I am here to see if DCUO is worth playing and if it's it not, will it be here long enough for it to be. The last part means, in a less cynical way, is what state the is the game in (I said this despite my awareness of what you were doing). Hopefully, I am the only one you've tried to chase off this forum. You have been on here for years and in that amount time, the players you "attack" can add up to something "impactful" to DCUO.

Note: It's like an episode of Lex vs Superman where your Lex twisting, weaving and binding what I say into something ugly. Thinking that I'm the villain and you're the one that needs to bring me down. Note: Let me guess, now you are going to take a jab at my sanity because I compared myself to Superman and you to Lex Luthor.

High CR and SP are not required to speak thoughtfully on this forum (even if you see it as complaining). You don't even need experience to speak on many of these topics that come up, including this one. And by the way, I've had this debate with "Proxystar" before on the matter when I was in my Prime and you still had the same position. "Everything is going to be all right", "The game will do just fine without clamping"; It didn't, at all. It cascaded into horror show where combat became irrelevant ("fast and furiously") due to the ubiquitous and invasive one shots. Part of my core reason to play DCUO was for its combat which had been "obliterated". The devs tried to fix the mess and take the blame that past communities created and this one supports. However, the indecision of the community to marred their progress.

OP, I hope you found your answer on whether or not you will continue to be bored in length in DCUO. Just note that the ones that really tried to change for the game for better were the devs. However, DCUO is heavily governed by this community (in relation to most games it is and in this case, its an unhealthy feature) without a proper balance of influence. So I recommend assuming nothing will change until it does.

Nothing I have said has misrepresented what you have said, put words in your mouth, or made assumptions based on, well, nothing. You have done all of those things.

There is nothing to hide behind, I stated that you are stawmanning as evidenced by the fact you take something that is not being said (mandatory SC) and construct your argument (strawman) based on the thing that was not said(strawman) instead of the thing that was said (optional SC). Which you literally said in your post:

Having a personal reason for doing so doesn't absolve you of strawmanning. It really is as rational & factual as that.

Please provide the definition of stat-clamping and the philosophy behind it. I would find that an interesting read. My google search seems to be coming up a bit short in that department.

Now for my assumptions. You keep pushing for me to 'reveal' my definition as a power play rather than a genuine request for information, which is why I don't really care either way to give it to you. If I do provide a meaningful, genuine, thought out definition I will be wasting my time as your goal is not to see the argument from my side but to find something to use to discredit. I can already see the cogs turning for how you will now use this admission against me which leads me to;

Generally, with another good faith actor (I presume you understand the reference) freely discussing your opinions is fine. But as with your particular brand of pedantry, what is said is often intentionally misrepresented (mantatory SC), taken to the extreme (doomsday fear) or any number of other things designed to not address the point at face value. I say this all as a criticism of your argumentation style not a personal attack before you attempt to take it there. I hold no personal grudge and as admitted in another thread, generally admire your ability to dominate an argument even if I disagree with what you are saying.

I was pro-clamping to an extent, the details of which are too numerous to explain in this post as it is already too long but I may elaborate given the opportunity in a later post (I fear a lock is due soon), but after consideration and looking back, I really have no defence against the many very fair criticisms of stat-clamping for DCUO. I even named a few in short hand in a previous comment.

I have already said things which could very much answer your questions or at the very least cause your questions to be redundant. The most obvious being not being a stat-clamp advocate. I assume you want me to give my definition of a workable stat-clamp system in this game, not stat-clamping in general, I mean it's pretty self explanatory: (Stat) (Clamp). But as I can no longer advocate for it due to the many good reasons given by people including yourself, I cannot give you the definition you seek.

What I can do, if you are genuinely interested, is give you the reasons I was initially pro-clamping, what I think might be positive as well as why I no longer think it is workable.

What I took issue with was your demonisation of stat-clamp advocates. You accuse me of making snide remarks, yet every post of your regarding stat-clamping is full of snide remarks, buzzwords and lingo designed to prompt a feels over reals response from the audience and you know it. And your response as it has been many times will simply the response I gave back to you, you just didn't like the answer you were getting/don't get offended by my language etc.

You are projecting, ego-bruised and offended that my choice of language, or more so, you are annoyed that someone using the same type of language as you, is also defending it in the same way as you do, how am I doing Sensei?

I'm more of a Lionel Luthor



And you missed.

Nothing in this post makes any sense nor is it relevant to where DCUO currently is, you'd know that if you'd played the game even remotely since Darkseid's War Factory

Once upon a time, Heroes and Villains were not allowed to queue in together. Villainside population was very low, which made queues ridiculously long and content almost unplayable. When the game announced that cross-faction queueing would be implemented, a bunch of naysayers said that it was horrible and they wanted an option to opt out of it. But the team realized the truth: queue times trump player preference.

You might be annoyed that you feel the content is too easy, but the fact remains that you are still queuing up and running it.

Any feature which divides the queues, also then SLOWS the queues. For each person who is allowed to click a little box that says "I'm special and don't want to team with these other people", their own queue moves slower as they exempt themselves from potential partners. And also, everyone else's queue moves slower as they are no longer permitted to group with that guy. Everything moves slower.

The only reason the up-clamping exists for the new content is because, without it, too few players are queuing at that top teir, so then the paying customers at the top teir aren't actually able to play the new expansions, which discourages people from buying it. They include all those up-clamps in order to guarantee that things will actually pop for the people at that level.

You know what is boring and has no challenge? Standing around the Watchtower for hours, waiting on queues that never pop. Even if the game is "too easy", it is still playable. When the queues slow to a crawl because the population gets divided into separate queues to run the exact same content, everyone loses. Everyone goes slower. Everyone sees delays. And then everyone is left dissatisfied.

So no. No clamping of the queues. No clicky box. No optional way to further divide the playerbase. Just no. If you want to play at a lower power level... remove some gear, or make a new, lower level character to level alongside your friend. But stop trying to ruin the queues.

this thread needs some cats.

jheez three wonder womans & and two scarlets, what an eye sore.

Actually I explained that I supported optional stat clamping, I explained why I don't believe it would happen and then moved back to what happens when that doesn't happen, why I don't support it and why it doesn't work and explained what stat clamping is. You on the other hand avoided the question and avoiding the discussion, hung up on the fact that you thought you'd somehow won this conversation or argument by alleging a strawman. I've invited you to enter the discussion, but you've refused - perhaps we'll see if you're more properly engaging here as we work through this post of yours.

I've already explained to you what I think stat clamping is.

- the desire to have all progression segmented within a small narrow window of relevancy i.e. for example if we take DCUO for example that might run T1 from CR30 - 50 the maximum level you'll ever achieve within T1 will be CR50. So if you go into T1 as a CR250 the max level you'll be is CR50, all power you've attained, all progress you've attained post CR50 wil be rendered irrelevant.

- the purpose of the above is to maintain the unique challenge that existed when you were limited to CR50 as a maximum within the game when that tier was the maximum relevancy

- the purpose of the above is to prevent CR250 players from going in to CR50 and destroying the content because supposedly it's boring, subjectively of course and again subjectively ruining peoples experiences who might I add is a 'make believe story' from a few players who complain every now and again an exceptionally low number. For every person that complains about that, there are 50 others in game that thank me for destroying it every day.

- the purpose of the above is to force players to play the game within that relevancy window because that is what they prefer, despite the fact others want to visualise and prove the power they have gained.

The philosophy behind stat clamping is to try and do the above because some developers seem to think you shouldn't see more global progression but rather segments of progression.

DCUO is fundamentally opposed to segments of progression because it is often intended you go back to content when you are more powerful so as to achieve things that you couldn't achieve when you are weaker, this is evidenced by the fact feats in the game are easier to obtain when you are of a higher level, something that would be completely impossible in a stat clamped environment.

Now you're assuming I have a secret agenda other than just entering into dialogue, perhaps you think I'm Lex Luthor as well LOL.

No I'm inviting you to enter the discussion in order to discuss it, you're avoiding it because you're afraid of where the potential discussion might lead and that discussion might lead you to change your opinion. I'm challenging you to change my viewpoint, if you don't want to engage then that's absolutely fine, but that's what you're doing.

There's no real point in terms of the topic here.

There's really nothing useful being said here either. If you add something to the discussion I'll engage, I can't engage in a discussion with someone who just says "Oh I'd enter the discussion but it's too long or I can't be bothered'. Honest question are you actually going to enter this discussion or just keep coming up with excuses or reasons as to why you won't?

Your snide remarks are the ones that are clearly little underhanded jabs making references to previous comments in other threads and the like, we both know what they are, they're not even related to the topic at hand.

I'm not projecting at all in fact your belief I'm ego-bruised is a projection of your own. I'm here to engage in a discussion you're simply choosing not to engage because again you're either unprepared to do so or unable to do so.

Conclusion: As we've worked through this post of yours its become obvious you aren't prepared to meaningfully engage in the conversation, its just excuse after excuse as to why you won't or can't.

I'll ask again.

If stat clamping isn't what I said it was then what is it and based on what you define stat clamping as, how do you anticipate it'l fit within DCUO mandatory or optional.

Then we can move the discussion forward

This isn't a competition and I am not playing games with you. You're not an authority on who decides what's irrelevant or what makes sense. Those types of comments are just a lazy jab at weakening the purpose of a post. If you don't get it then say you don't understand or don't comment at all.

Note: Moderators should shut these types of comments down.

I strongly suggest you log in and aim to get your toon to CR 170. You will see how "optional" stat clamping would hurt the progression of newcomers. May I also suggest you find yourself a good league.

My ability to robustly converse and debate a topic isn't about making it a competition.

I'm not quite sure how to further break this down for you.

if you're going to comment on how "boring low level content is", "how low level content is being trivialized" and "how that low level content should be clamped to prevent that trivialization" then it's fundamentally imperative that you 'actually' play the game that you're giving feedback about.

The game has changed a lot since revamp, everyone has tried to say that here but you're missing the point. Your opinion is dated and it's ignorant of the changes that have taken place within DCUO within the last 2 years because you haven't played it.

Your position is flawed because it lacks the necessary experience in which to draw a meaningful and informed conclusion.

Many people who previously supported stat clamping prior to stat revamp for example don't even support it anymore, which means there's even less people requesting it than in the past.