Old Content too easy for High CR Players and Boring

Well said.

It's not trivializing progression. You have already progressed past what lower levels can give you. Your progression lies with your present tiered content. The most you get are feats for doing older content and those aren't necessary to rise in CR.

So now you're arguing feats and stat points aren't necessary elements of progression...

Your progression lies with your present tiered content. The most you get are feats for doing older content and those aren't necessary to rise in CR. SP makes content easier but its not a necessity. The devs went out their way to make it optional.

What did that other poster call it: Straw Manning. I looked it up and the definitions matches to what I thought you were doing on various posts.

^^^ Best Post by a mile.

In order to tackle Elite content, SP just might be a necessity. Maybe you don't consider moving into Elite as a form of progression, but I'm pretty sure that some people do. And Elite gear gives you a rise in CR, so there is that, too.


"Your progression lies with your present tiered content" which has to include elite.

I have also explained that I supported optional stat-clamping, I explained why I think stat-clamping is also a bad idea in short form, maybe I didn't elaborate enough for you. You are attempting to paint me as unco-operative or not engaging the topic but I clearly have. This paragraph really isn't for me, its for the audience. But I thought i'd explain what you are doing for anyone taking the time to actually read my responses.

is not the same as

The words definition and opinion are not interchangeable. And your opinion is not a philosophy in and of itself. That quote to me suggested that should I search for the 'definition' I would be able to find one, which as I stated, my google search did not. Which is why I asked for your definition, and was hoping also perhaps for a link to an article or something about the philosophy regarding stat-clamping, that part I genuinely would be interested in. I was requesting that in good faith as the article may not be as easy to find as a quick google search.

No, not Lex, and not a secret agenda, just an argumentation style. No an agenda outside of the agenda everyone has when they enter a discussion. What I feel you have been doing and generally do is dominate an argument with pedantry rather than good faith discussion. You have done so more aggressively in these last posts which to me shows your ego-brusing, you are trying to push my buttons with snide ad homs and character attacks. I wont sweat it though.

This is another example of your power play. You keep trying to say I am not engaging when I have offered many opinions so far on topic. I will list the opinions I have shared that are on topic in short form below. Your question is not the same as the whole topic, you are asking for a definition of stat-clamping, the topic is not about the definition. It is a redundant question. I have explained why, but instead of addressing my explanation you have reverted back to saying I am avoiding the topic as you don't have a good retort, you just decided to play to the audience instead.

See above, audience power play

Who is we? More audience power play.
I do not disagree with your definition of stat-clamping. My opinion is as I have explained a number of times despite the fact you say I am avoiding it, is stat-clamping wont work. Only you said I do not agree with your definition not me. I never said anything or the sort. You asked me to forget the mandatory part though, even though that is the strawman part. You are trying to ask me to ignore the strawman you are creating.
The definition of stat-clamping was never where we disagreed as you are trying to claim, it's your desire to scrub yourself of the strawman claim that is driving this. You seem to be happy to label other people things but really, really, don't like it when it is done to you, hence the ego-bruising. If it wasn't you wouldn't care so much about what other people think and getting all emotional over a little word? I really don't see how not arguing against what someone has said, but instead arguing against a pre-determined personal definition which isn't what was originally said can be seen as anything other than strawmanning. If the shoe fits.....

1. I was an advocate of stat-clamping
2. I am no longer an advocate of stat-clamping thanks to members such as BumblingB and yourself providing good reasons for why I will not work. (I even admitted to changing my mind, yet you accuse me of being too afraid to change my mind, I can only assume more audience power play as I really cannot see how you can say that with a straight face.)
3. I do not believe there is one fixed definition of stat-clamping, or to be clearer there is not a fixed application of the definition for this game, at least not one that everyone is going to agree on
4. My definition would be situational and dependant on a number of factors. For example to even consider giving an answer I need to consider what level of plausibility I give the suggestion. A perfect world plausibility or a real world one. As stated previously, I cannot give a real world definition since I do not believe it will work. Thus anything I say I would also disagree as a system to implement.

A perfect world solution is easy as it would be a perfect world.
-Optional
-Minimum of 2 tier above current for clamp
-Gear drops similar to event drops, attuneable, but never top gear and non end game marks (since it has gone back to a multi-currency system)
Simple, but that won't work, because of all the real world implications I have already admitted to making stat-clamping a bad idea for this game. Heck even in a perfect world there would probably be a bunch of issues. Seriously, you keep saying I am not engaging the topic but all you are doing is outright lying.

Wow, an actual call out. Should we meet behind the school at 3PM or something?

BTW. you've derailed your argument already a few times with double talk and points that go directly against some of your earlier points, so the wait was over a while ago. Hence the reason I didn't want to prolong it and posted a blank...essentially "I'm done" post.

But please....continue
Reinheld

PS...ok....now I'm done.

have you tried the watchtower walkins? they're pretty much clamped and nothing dies too fast in them, especially the team oriented ones (like the fortress core walkins or sub construct).

they're not necessary for cr but they do benefit your role's primary statistics which in turn effect the proficiency and efficiency of your support/dps' abilities like heals, self heals/shields for tanks, how long control effects last and how much pot is produced as a troller etc. saying stats don't matter isn't quite correct, statistics and damage/everything else is split evenly between your gear and stats or sp which means you ARE in fact shooting yourself in the foot by lacking them i would say 50% of your role's primary stat source is VERY necessary and major wouldn't you? i don't think this argument thread should continue.

I suspected that and yes, I did considered it a bonus. However you need to participate in the Elite content to acquire the currency to get to the Elite gear. However, I won't be able to comment on the SP part. I don't know if you can get one shotted , burn down the enemy fast enough or heal your party well without skill points (but with the latest full set of non-Elite gear).

Yeah I know stats matter but SP still isn't needed.

that post sort of eats itself, while having a full set of role specific gear will be adequate it won't quite make up for a lack of sp to give most abilities a little more force behind them so to speak. for example as a healer you might see a small increase in the power and strength of heals but artifacts/sp push it just a bit further to being where those abilities need to be to heal the more major stuff like boss one shots which most players wouldn't jump away from to save their lives literally. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/dcuo/index.php?threads/explain-to-me-why-sp-dont-matter.272971/. while stats does not fully = sp, sp is a partial benefactor to stats up to a certain point.

Healing through a one shot mechanic is a perk (maybe an exploit if its truly designed to be a one shot mechanic). It's Elite, it's should be expected that everyone jumps away; you're supposed to the best of the best. Players being able to heal through attacks lessens the challenge.

i'll explain it in a more literal way, cr and gear are like bullet proof vests for cops it's useful certainly but sp is more like the years of training a cop gets to use their gear and equipment, it's good that the cops are properly protected and armed but there's a reason you still want to train the cops before sending them out on the street armed with a gun and no experience with it's use. a bullet proof vest is good, but only if the person is trained to run away/dodge where the bullet proof vest doesn't apply. cr and gear is like those vests/guns it's handy to have but equally important is the sp and skill needed (which equates to years of academy training in police technology and protocals) to wield them properly.

There is a very hard clamp on player progression they go through the tiers. They need the gear to get into the next tier. They have no other way to participate in higher dungeons, until they meet the CR requirement. They can't even try and fail on higher level dungeons. They have no opportunity. Elite participants do have opportunity. They can try, fail and succeed without Elite gear and its CR enhancements.

The distinction between having opportunity and the lack of it defines what necessity is in this context.

which only further fortifies my above statement that gear is something needed like fire proof clothes to a fire fighter or bullet/stab proofs vests and guns for cops, but that again the sp/skills developed is the training in those emergency services. think of taking off the gear as fighting a deer or other wild game with a knife instead of the usually used gun or bow, it's riskier but comes with the higher reward of feeling better about the accomplishment. or as others have said you can keep a toon at level and just use that without progressing it, there are simply too many solution options available to every player for the problem the people of this thread have, to just outright burden everybody else with said problem by just initiating a blanket solution that's not quite necessary. you simply want the old challenge of being 30 or 40 or 50-200 again? why not just easily make a new toon and level it and when you're tired of it discard it? or better yet to save names and server space, why not just slowly level it if not at all?

You're insinuating through your statement that CR is the only relevant means of progression, the fact you're saying "SP make content easier but are not a necessity" furthers that sentiment.

You're basically saying "Oh well, it's not like high CR players need to be in lower tiered content anyway, there's nothing in there for them other than insignificant feats".

Your argument is asinine. SP do matter and people do seek out SP.

SP are a lot more important, especially when it comes to the likes of elite content and the fact they have so many additional uses now. such as DPS players setting points in Might, Precision and Health, along with iconic abilities, with this all tying in to artifacts.

No rest assured feats are important and your attempt to seperate it from CR is nothing but an attempt to diminish what they are to suit your argument.

You see, you'd know this if again you'd spent any time playing the game, but you haven't and haven't done so since May 2016, coming on 3 years ago.

Again log in, play the game, see what's going on then come back and have an informed discussion not just a rant about how the game needs stat clamping while ignoring all the game changes over the past 2.5 years because you don't even know what they are.

I've deleted all of your post from my quote that is drivel and will address the remaining important part.

No, it does have a definition, it's definition isn't impacted by a variance in implementation, in short.

'clamping someone's stats so that irrespective of overall progression the players stats don't exceed a point designated as appropriate for the content being played'.

You've now gone in to how you'd implement it within DCUO furthering the discussion, I now commend you, so question

How did you come up with 2 tiers above the content as the clamp? What was your reasoning for this?

If not top gear dropping, what level, how good is the gear? I'm trying to ascertain the carrot you're giving, your whole system is optional so where's the motivation for high end players to play under an optional system where their stats are clamped?

If the motivation and incentive isn't high enough you're only splitting your community and increasing queue times.

In a perfect world the community splitting & increased queue times would be negligible. The motivation is simply those that wish to run the instance clamped. In a perfect world I could do away with linear progression and replace it with some form of xp progression. In a perfect world content could be auto adjusted to group make up. Even in that perfect world all of those suggestions would need to be fine-tuned and some may not work at all.

But as I said before there are no real world solutions for implementing stat-clamping into DCUO, let me say this again for you, I would not implement stat clamping into DCUO. I don't understand why you keep on trying to make me defend a viewpoint I do not hold.

I did describe stat-clamping as a nebulous term. That is because the way I remember it anything to do with stat-adjustments was called stat-clamping. From stat-caps, to stat-flattening, to stat-boosting. These threads all became known as stat-clamping threads, which is why to me there are 'multiple definitions', each depending on implementation, that was my perception at least.